TEDxStanford
Salil Dudani: How jails extort the poor
沙利爾‧杜達尼: 牢獄如何壓榨窮人
Filmed:
Readability: 3.8
1,115,590 views
人為何要因為貧窮而入獄？目前美國有 50 萬人只是因為負擔不起保釋金而被囚禁。並有更多的人因無法清償法院方面的債務而受羈押，原因包括像是欠交違規停車罰款這種小事。沙利爾‧杜達尼分享他親身經歷密蘇里州佛格遜欠債人牢獄的人的所見所聞，叫我們從另一角度思考我們是如何懲處貧窮和社會邊緣人士。
Salil Dudani - Legal activist
Salil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing. Full bio
Salil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
One summer afternoon in 2013,
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2013 年夏天的一個下午，
00:15
DC police detained, questioned
and searched a man
and searched a man
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華盛頓警察以某男子面目可疑、
可能是危險分子為由
而予以拘留、問話、搜身。
而予以拘留、問話、搜身。
00:18
who appeared suspicious
and potentially dangerous.
and potentially dangerous.
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00:22
This wasn't what I was wearing
the day of the detention, to be fair,
the day of the detention, to be fair,
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我被拘留時並非穿着這件衣服，
00:25
but I have a picture of that as well.
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但當時穿的衣服我也有拍照。
00:27
I know it's very frightening --
try to remain calm.
try to remain calm.
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我知道這件衣服有點刺激眼睛——
拜託你們還是冷靜一下吧。
拜託你們還是冷靜一下吧。
00:30
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
00:31
At this time, I was interning
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當時我在華盛頓
00:33
at the Public Defender Service
in Washington DC,
in Washington DC,
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「公設辯護律師服務」見習，
00:36
and I was visiting
a police station for work.
a police station for work.
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因工作關係到訪一間警局。
00:39
I was on my way out,
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當我正在離開、
00:40
and before I could make it to my car,
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還未走到我的車前，
00:42
two police cars pulled up
to block my exit,
to block my exit,
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就被兩輛警車上前堵住去路，
00:44
and an officer approached me from behind.
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其中一名警員從後向我靠近。
00:46
He told me to stop, take my backpack off
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他叫我停下、放下背包、
00:49
and put my hands on the police car
parked next to us.
parked next to us.
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把雙手放在停在旁邊的警車。
00:52
About a dozen officers
then gathered near us.
then gathered near us.
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隨後多名警員圍着我們，
00:55
All of them had handguns,
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他們每一名都荷槍，
00:57
some had assault rifles.
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甚至突擊步槍。
00:58
They rifled through my backpack.
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他們搜查我的背包，
01:00
They patted me down.
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搜身，
01:01
They took pictures of me
spread on the police car,
spread on the police car,
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拍下我趴在警車上的照片，
01:04
and they laughed.
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然後放聲大笑。
01:05
And as all this was happening --
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當這一切都在進行時——
01:06
as I was on the police car trying
to ignore the shaking in my legs,
to ignore the shaking in my legs,
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我在警車旁試着不理會
自己發抖的雙腿，
自己發抖的雙腿，
01:10
trying to think clearly
about what I should do --
about what I should do --
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並細心思考我應該如何做時——
01:12
something stuck out to me as odd.
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我發現了一些怪事。
01:14
When I look at myself in this photo,
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當我望着這幅照片時，
01:16
if I were to describe myself,
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若要我形容自己，
01:18
I think I'd say something like,
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我會說：
01:20
"19-year-old Indian male,
bright T-shirt, wearing glasses."
bright T-shirt, wearing glasses."
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「 19 歲印度裔男性，
鮮色汗衫、架着眼鏡。」
鮮色汗衫、架着眼鏡。」
01:25
But they weren't including
any of these details.
any of these details.
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但警察們並沒有記錄這些明細。
01:27
Into their police radios
as they described me,
as they described me,
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他們在對講機上形容我時，
01:30
they kept saying, "Middle Eastern
male with a backpack.
male with a backpack.
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不停說：「帶着背包的中東裔男子。
01:32
Middle Eastern male with a backpack."
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帶着背包的中東裔男子。」
01:34
And this description carried on
into their police reports.
into their police reports.
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這些內容都記錄在警察報告上。
01:38
I never expected to be described
by my own government in these terms:
by my own government in these terms:
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我從來沒想過自己的
政府用這些字眼形容我：
政府用這些字眼形容我：
01:43
"lurking,"
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「鬼鬼崇崇」、
01:45
"nefarious,"
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「心術不正」、
01:47
"terrorist."
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「恐怖分子」。
01:49
And the detention dragged on like this.
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拘留過程不停重覆這些動作：
01:50
They sent dogs trained to smell explosives
to sweep the area I'd been in.
to sweep the area I'd been in.
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他們把受過嗅辨爆炸品訓練的警犬
帶過來掃視我踏足的地方，
帶過來掃視我踏足的地方，
01:54
They called the federal government
to see if I was on any watch lists.
to see if I was on any watch lists.
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他們詢問聯邦政府
我是否在監視名單，
我是否在監視名單，
01:58
They sent a couple of detectives
to cross-examine me on why,
to cross-examine me on why,
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他們派數名探員盤問我：
02:01
if I claimed I had nothing to hide,
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既然我聲稱自己沒有任何隱瞞，
那為何不允許他們搜查我的車？
02:03
I wouldn't consent to a search of my car.
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02:05
And I could see
they weren't happy with me,
they weren't happy with me,
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我感覺到他們對我不滿，
02:07
but I felt I had no way of knowing
what they'd want to do next.
what they'd want to do next.
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但我無從知道他們
下一步要我做甚麼。
下一步要我做甚麼。
02:10
At one point, the officer
who patted me down
who patted me down
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那個把我搜身的警員甚至
02:13
scanned the side of the police station
to see where the security camera was
to see where the security camera was
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查看警局旁哪裡有保安攝錄器，
02:17
to see how much of this
was being recorded.
was being recorded.
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以知道他們對我做的事
有多少被錄下來。
有多少被錄下來。
02:19
And when he did that,
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當他這樣做時，
02:21
it really sank in how completely
I was at their mercy.
I was at their mercy.
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我終於明白：人為刀俎，我為魚肉。
02:24
I think we're all normalized
from a young age
from a young age
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相信我們自小都習慣了
02:27
to the idea of police officers
and arrests and handcuffs,
and arrests and handcuffs,
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警員用手鐐逮捕疑犯，
02:30
so it's easy to forget how demeaning
and coercive a thing it is
and coercive a thing it is
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所以他們要控制別人身體時，
02:34
to seize control over
another person's body.
another person's body.
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我們不覺得這是侮辱。
02:37
I know it sounds like
the point of my story
the point of my story
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大家或會覺得我只不過想說
02:39
is how badly treated I was
because of my race --
because of my race --
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我都是因為種族身分
而被粗暴對待——
而被粗暴對待——
02:42
and yes, I don't think I would've been
detained if I were white.
detained if I were white.
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如果我是白人，一定不會被拘留。
02:45
But actually, what I have in mind
today is something else.
today is something else.
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但我現在想到另一樣東西：
02:48
What I have in mind is how
much worse things might've been
much worse things might've been
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如果我不是家境富裕的話，
02:50
if I weren't affluent.
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我的遭遇或會更差。
02:52
I mean, they thought I might be trying
to plant an explosive,
to plant an explosive,
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他們以為我埋下爆炸品，
02:55
and they investigated that possibility
for an hour and a half,
for an hour and a half,
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因而花了一小時半進行調查，
02:58
but I was never put in handcuffs,
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但我從沒被扣上手鐐，
03:00
I was never taken to a jail cell.
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也從沒被帶進牢房。
03:02
I think if I were from one of Washington
DC's poor communities of color,
DC's poor communities of color,
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如果我是華盛頓貧窮
有色人種社區的一員，
有色人種社區的一員，
03:06
and they thought I was
endangering officers' lives,
endangering officers' lives,
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而且警員認為我危害他們性命安全，
03:08
things might've ended differently.
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事情發展可能完全不一樣。
03:10
And in fact, in our system, I think
it's better to be an affluent person
it's better to be an affluent person
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在這制度下，作為一個富裕人士
被懷疑引爆警局，
03:13
suspected of trying
to blow up a police station
to blow up a police station
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03:15
than it is to be a poor person
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總比作為一個窮人好過，
03:17
who's suspected of much,
much less than this.
much less than this.
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富人被懷疑程度遠比窮人低。
03:20
I want to give you an example
from my current work.
from my current work.
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讓我從目前的工作舉個例子說明。
03:23
Right now, I'm working
at a civil rights organization in DC,
at a civil rights organization in DC,
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目前我任職於華盛頓的民權組織，
它叫做「法律之下司法平等」。
03:26
called Equal Justice Under Law.
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03:28
Let me start by asking you all a question.
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首先讓我問大家一條問題：
03:31
How many of you have ever gotten
a parking ticket in your life?
a parking ticket in your life?
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有誰曾經收過違規停車罰單？
03:34
Raise your hand.
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請舉手。
03:36
Yeah. So have I.
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我也收過。
03:38
And when I had to pay it,
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我要繳交罰款時，
03:39
it felt annoying and it felt bad,
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覺得這實在討厭，感覺糟透，
03:41
but I paid it and I moved on.
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但我最後都繳交了事。
03:43
I'm guessing most of you
have paid your tickets as well.
have paid your tickets as well.
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相信在座大部分人都曾繳交罰款。
03:46
But what would happen if you
couldn't afford the amount on the ticket
couldn't afford the amount on the ticket
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但若各位無力負擔罰款、
03:50
and your family doesn't have
the money either, what happens then?
the money either, what happens then?
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家人也無力負擔罰款會怎辦﹖
03:54
Well, one thing that's not supposed
to happen under the law is,
to happen under the law is,
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法律下不能容許發生的事之一，
03:57
you're not supposed to be
arrested and jailed
arrested and jailed
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就是不能因為無力繳交罰款
03:59
simply because you can't afford to pay.
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就被逮捕和囚禁。
04:01
That's illegal under federal law.
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這是違反聯邦法律的，
04:03
But that's what local governments
across the country are doing
across the country are doing
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然而全國的地方政府都對窮人
04:06
to people who are poor.
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進行這種違法的事。
04:07
And so many of our lawsuits
at Equal Justice Under Law
at Equal Justice Under Law
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「法律之下司法平等」
處理的很多訴訟，
處理的很多訴訟，
04:10
target these modern-day debtors' prisons.
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都是針對現代版「欠債人牢獄」。
04:13
One of our cases is against
Ferguson, Missouri.
Ferguson, Missouri.
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其中一單訴訟是針對
密蘇里州佛格遜政府。
密蘇里州佛格遜政府。
04:16
And I know when I say Ferguson,
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當我提到佛格遜這名字，
04:18
many of you will think of police violence.
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大家或會聯想起警察暴力事件。
04:20
But today I want to talk
about a different aspect
about a different aspect
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但我今天要從另一角度
04:22
of the relationship between
their police force and their citizens.
their police force and their citizens.
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談警民關係。
04:26
Ferguson was issuing an average
of over two arrest warrants,
of over two arrest warrants,
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佛格遜政府每年平均向每人發出
04:29
per person, per year,
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超過兩項逮捕令，
04:31
mostly for unpaid debt to the courts.
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大部分都是為法院追討欠債。
04:34
When I imagine what that would feel like
if, every time I left my house,
if, every time I left my house,
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當我想起如果每次我離開住所後，
04:39
there was a chance a police officer
would run my license plate,
would run my license plate,
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我或被警員根據車牌號碼翻查資料，
04:42
see a warrant for unpaid debt,
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以欠債為由發出逮捕令、
04:43
seize my body they way the did in DC
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就像在華盛頓時把我的身體按下、
04:46
and then take me to a jail cell,
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然後把我送進牢房時，
04:47
I feel a little sick.
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我就會渾身不自在。
04:50
I've met many of the people in Ferguson
who have experienced this,
who have experienced this,
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我在佛格遜遇過有這些經歷的人，
04:54
and I've heard some of their stories.
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也聽過他們的親身經歷。
04:55
In Ferguson's jail,
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在佛格遜的監獄，
04:57
in each small cell,
there's a bunk bed and a toilet,
there's a bunk bed and a toilet,
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每個小牢房都有
一張雙層床和一個馬桶，
一張雙層床和一個馬桶，
05:00
but they'd pack four people
into each cell.
into each cell.
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但每個牢房卻擠著四個人。
05:02
So there'd be two people on the bunks
and two people on the floor,
and two people on the floor,
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兩人睡在床上，兩人睡地板，
05:05
one with nowhere to go except
right next to the filthy toilet,
right next to the filthy toilet,
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骯髒的馬桶就在咫尺，
05:08
which was never cleaned.
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從來沒有清潔過。
05:09
In fact, the whole cell was never cleaned,
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其實整個牢房都沒有清潔過，
05:12
so the floor and the walls were lined
with blood and mucus.
with blood and mucus.
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地板和牆上滿是血跡和粘液。
05:16
No water to drink,
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沒有任何飲用水，
05:17
except coming out of a spigot
connected to the toilet.
connected to the toilet.
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只有來自馬桶的水。
05:19
The water looked and tasted dirty,
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馬桶水看上去很骯髒，
其味道也是如此，
其味道也是如此，
05:21
there was never enough food,
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從來沒有足夠食物，
05:23
never any showers,
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從來沒有機會淋浴，
05:24
women menstruating
without any hygiene products,
without any hygiene products,
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女士月經時沒有衞生用品可用，
05:27
no medical attention whatsoever.
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得不到任何醫療協助。
05:29
When I asked a woman
about medical attention,
about medical attention,
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當我問她們其中一位
有否得到醫療協助時，
有否得到醫療協助時，
05:31
she laughed, and she said, "Oh, no, no.
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她失笑並說：「當然沒有。
05:34
The only attention you get
from the guards in there is sexual."
from the guards in there is sexual."
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獄卒反而只有興趣跟我們性交。」
05:37
So, they'd take the debtors
to this place and they'd say,
to this place and they'd say,
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他們只把欠債人帶進監獄並說：
05:40
"We're not letting you leave
until you make a payment on your debt."
until you make a payment on your debt."
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「未能還清債務就休想離開。」
05:44
And if you could -- if you
could call a family member
could call a family member
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如果你可以致電家人求助、
05:46
who could somehow come up with some money,
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叫他們給你一點錢的話，
05:48
then maybe you were out.
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你就可以離開。
05:50
If it was enough money, you were out.
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錢足夠的話，你才可以走。
05:52
But if it wasn't, you'd stay there
for days or weeks,
for days or weeks,
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錢不夠的話就要在這裡多呆幾天，
05:55
and every day the guards
would come down to the cells
would come down to the cells
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每天獄卒就會來到牢房，
05:58
and haggle with the debtors
about the price of release that day.
about the price of release that day.
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跟欠債人爭辯交多少錢才可以離開。
06:02
You'd stay until, at some point,
the jail would be booked to capacity,
the jail would be booked to capacity,
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監獄總會有滿額的一天，
06:06
and they'd want to book someone new in.
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他們要帶新人進來時，
06:08
And at that point, they'd think,
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就會這樣考慮：
06:10
"OK, it's unlikely this person
can come up with the money,
can come up with the money,
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「這個人怕是還不起錢了，
反而新人更有可能還錢。」
06:13
it's more likely this new person will."
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舊人出新人入，系統就是這樣運作。
06:14
You're out, they're in,
and the machine kept moving like that.
and the machine kept moving like that.
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06:17
I met a man who,
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我曾經見過
06:20
nine years ago, was arrested
for panhandling in a Walgreens.
for panhandling in a Walgreens.
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一位九年前因在藥房
行乞而被捕的男子。
行乞而被捕的男子。
06:24
He couldn't afford his fines
and his court fees from that case.
and his court fees from that case.
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他無力繳付罰款和訴訟堂費。
06:28
When he was young
he survived a house fire,
he survived a house fire,
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他年輕時在家居火災生還，
06:31
only because he jumped out
of the third-story window to escape.
of the third-story window to escape.
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但只因為他是從三樓窗戶躍下逃生。
06:34
But that fall left him
with damage to his brain
with damage to his brain
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這一跳令他腦部
06:36
and several parts of this body,
including his leg.
including his leg.
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以及大腿等身體部位受損。
因此他無法工作，
06:39
So he can't work,
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06:40
and he relies on social security
payments to survive.
payments to survive.
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需要依靠社會保障金過活。
06:42
When I met him in his apartment,
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當我探訪他的寓所時，
06:44
he had nothing of value there --
not even food in his fridge.
not even food in his fridge.
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他身無分文，冰箱連食物也沒有。
他長期挨餓。
06:47
He's chronically hungry.
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他家徒四壁，只有一小塊紙板，
06:48
He had nothing of value in his apartment
except a small piece of cardboard
except a small piece of cardboard
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上面寫着他孩子的名字。
06:52
on which he'd written
the names of his children.
the names of his children.
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06:54
He cherished this a lot.
He was happy to show it to me.
He was happy to show it to me.
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他珍而重之、很樂意的給我看。
他身無分文而無力繳付罰款和規費。
06:56
But he can't pay his fines and fees
because he has nothing to give.
because he has nothing to give.
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07:00
In the last nine years,
he's been arrested 13 times,
he's been arrested 13 times,
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九年來他被逮捕 13 次，
07:03
and jailed for a total of 130 days
on that panhandling case.
on that panhandling case.
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因那次行乞就被監禁共 130 天。
07:08
One of those stretches lasted 45 days.
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有一次他更被連續囚禁 45 天。
07:11
Just imagine spending from right now
until sometime in June
until sometime in June
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試想像一下由現在直至六月
07:16
in the place that I described to you
a few moments ago.
a few moments ago.
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待在我剛才形容的地方。
07:20
He told me about all the suicide attempts
he's seen in Ferguson's jail;
he's seen in Ferguson's jail;
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他告訴我佛格遜監獄中
很多人企圖自殺；
很多人企圖自殺；
07:24
about the time a man found
a way to hang himself
a way to hang himself
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一名男子去其他囚犯到不了的地方
07:27
out of reach of the other inmates,
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試圖吊頸自盡，
07:28
so all they could do
was yell and yell and yell,
was yell and yell and yell,
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他們可做的只是拼命叫喊，
07:31
trying to get the guards' attention
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試圖引起獄卒的注意，
07:33
so they could come down and cut him down.
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希望獄卒趕過來把他救回來。
07:35
And he told me that it took the guards
over five minutes to respond,
over five minutes to respond,
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他說獄卒五分鐘後才回應，
07:39
and when they came,
the man was unconscious.
the man was unconscious.
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當他們來到時那人已經不省人事。
07:41
So they called the paramedics
and the paramedics went to the cell.
and the paramedics went to the cell.
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獄卒電召醫療輔助人員，
醫護來到時，
醫護來到時，
07:44
They said, "He'll be OK,"
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就說：「他沒事的。」
07:45
so they just left him there on the floor.
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他們就任由那人躺在地上。
07:48
I heard many stories like this
and they shouldn't have surprised me,
and they shouldn't have surprised me,
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這些故事我聽過多遍，我不感驚訝，
07:51
because suicide is the single leading
cause of death in our local jails.
cause of death in our local jails.
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因為自殺是地區監獄中
囚犯的首要死因。
囚犯的首要死因。
07:55
This is related to the lack
of mental health care in our jails.
of mental health care in our jails.
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這跟監獄中缺乏精神健康協助有關。
07:58
I met a woman, single mother of three,
making seven dollars an hour.
making seven dollars an hour.
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我見過一名三子之母，
她時薪七美元，
她時薪七美元，
08:02
She relies on food stamps
to feed herself and her children.
to feed herself and her children.
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她和孩子都要靠食物配給券過活。
08:06
About a decade ago,
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大約十年前，
08:07
she got a couple of traffic tickets
and a minor theft charge,
and a minor theft charge,
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她收到幾張交通違規罰單
和被控小型盜竊，
和被控小型盜竊，
08:11
and she can't afford her fines
and fees on those cases.
and fees on those cases.
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但無力繳付罰款和訴訟堂費。
08:14
Since then, she's been jailed
about 10 times on those cases,
about 10 times on those cases,
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因此她在往後被監禁約十次，
08:18
but she has schizophrenia
and bipolar disorder,
and bipolar disorder,
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然而她患上精神分裂症
和狂躁抑鬱症，
和狂躁抑鬱症，
08:20
and she needs medication every day.
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需要每天服藥。
08:22
She doesn't have access
to those medications in Ferguson's jail,
to those medications in Ferguson's jail,
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她在佛格遜監獄得不到藥物服用，
因為所有囚犯都得不到藥物服用。
08:25
because no one has access
to their medications.
to their medications.
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2216
她告訴我待在牢房那兩星期間
08:28
She told me about what it was like
to spend two weeks in a cage,
to spend two weeks in a cage,
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4026
08:32
hallucinating people and shadows
and hearing voices,
and hearing voices,
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幻覺到身邊有人、影和聲音等等，
08:35
begging for the medication
that would make it all stop,
that would make it all stop,
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哀求獄方提供藥物以消除幻覺，
08:38
only to be ignored.
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卻無人理會。
08:40
And this isn't anomalous, either:
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這卻並非特例：
08:42
thirty percent of women in our local jails
have serious mental health needs
have serious mental health needs
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地區監獄有三成女囚犯
極需要精神健康協助，
極需要精神健康協助，
08:45
just like hers,
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1156
就像她一樣，
08:46
but only one in six receives
any mental health care while in jail.
any mental health care while in jail.
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4517
但只有六分之一的人
在獄中得到精神協助。
在獄中得到精神協助。
08:51
And so, I heard all these stories
about this grotesque dungeon
about this grotesque dungeon
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佛格遜監獄為欠債人
設置荒唐的地牢，
設置荒唐的地牢，
08:55
that Ferguson was operating
for its debtors,
for its debtors,
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那些駭人傳聞我全都聽過，
08:57
and when it came time
for me to actually see it
for me to actually see it
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2293
但當我有機會到訪佛格遜監獄
08:59
and to go visit Ferguson's jail,
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1954
去親眼目睹那些囚牢，
09:01
I'm not sure what I was expecting to see,
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2040
我不清楚會看到些甚麼，
09:03
but I wasn't expecting this.
202
531940
1954
但我意料不到會見到這情景。
09:06
It's an ordinary government building.
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1839
監獄看來就像普通政府辦公大樓，
09:08
It could be a post office or a school.
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2456
看來像郵局或學校。
09:10
It reminded me that these illegal
extortion schemes
extortion schemes
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這提醒我一切違法的敲詐勾當
09:14
aren't being run somewhere in the shadows,
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2088
都不是在暗黑中進行，
09:16
they're being run out in the open
by our public officials.
by our public officials.
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2716
而是由官員們在光天化日下進行。
09:19
They're a matter of public policy.
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這些勾當攸關公共政策。
09:21
And this reminded me
that poverty jailing in general,
that poverty jailing in general,
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這也提醒我，因貧窮而受牢獄——
09:23
even outside the debtors' prison context,
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2208
即使撇除欠債人牢獄的情況——
09:26
plays a very visible and central role
in our justice system.
in our justice system.
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在司法制度內的角色也舉足輕重。
09:29
What I have in mind is our policy of bail.
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2212
我想到的就是保釋制度。
09:32
In our system, whether
you're detained or free,
you're detained or free,
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2552
在這制度中，被拘留或獲釋放，
09:34
pending trial is not a matter
of how dangerous you are
of how dangerous you are
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並非視乎當事人有多大危險性
09:37
or how much of a flight risk you pose.
215
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2248
或者有多大機會潛逃，
09:40
It's a matter of whether you can afford
to post your bail amount.
to post your bail amount.
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3086
而是視乎當事人能否負擔保釋金。
演員比爾 · 科斯比的保釋金
高達百萬美元，
高達百萬美元，
09:43
So Bill Cosby, whose bail
was set at a million dollars,
was set at a million dollars,
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2712
09:45
immediately writes the check,
and doesn't spend a second in a jail cell.
and doesn't spend a second in a jail cell.
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他立即以支票交款就絲毫不用坐牢。
09:49
But Sandra Bland, who died in jail,
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但死在獄中的桑德拉 · 布蘭德，
09:51
was only there because her family
was unable to come up with 500 dollars.
was unable to come up with 500 dollars.
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3998
她只因家人交不出 500 元就被監禁。
09:55
In fact, there are half a million
Sandra Blands across the country --
Sandra Blands across the country --
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其實全國有 50 萬
像布蘭德一樣的人——
像布蘭德一樣的人——
09:58
500,000 people who are in jail right now,
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現在之所以要待在監獄，
10:00
only because they can't afford
their bail amount.
their bail amount.
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只是因為無力繳納保釋金。
10:03
We're told that our jails
are places for criminals,
are places for criminals,
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3057
常言道，監獄是罪犯的地方，
10:06
but statistically that's not the case:
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594631
2013
但統計上這並非事實：
10:08
three out of every five people
in jail right now are there pretrial.
in jail right now are there pretrial.
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4301
五分之三的在囚人士是還未審訊的。
10:12
They haven't been convicted of any crime;
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他們還沒有被控犯下任何罪行，
10:15
they haven't pled guilty to any offense.
228
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2511
也沒有認任何罪。
10:18
Right here in San Francisco,
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在三藩市這裡，
10:19
85 percent of the inmates
in our jail in San Francisco
in our jail in San Francisco
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在囚人士中有 85%
還未經審訊而被拘留。
10:23
are pretrial detainees.
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1744
10:24
This means San Francisco is spending
something like 80 million dollars
something like 80 million dollars
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這意味三藩市每年花費大約
10:28
every year
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1170
8,000 萬元
10:29
to fund pretrial detention.
234
617504
1716
囚禁還未經審訊的被拘留人士。
10:33
Many of these people who are in jail
only because they can't post bail
only because they can't post bail
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4419
很多人坐牢只因負擔不起保釋金；
10:37
are facing allegations so minor
236
625683
2246
針對他們的指控雖然輕微，
10:39
that the amount of time it would take
for them to sit waiting for trial
for them to sit waiting for trial
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3383
但他們坐牢等待審訊的時間，
10:43
is longer than the sentence
they would receive if convicted,
they would receive if convicted,
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3052
比起定罪後的判監時間還要長，
10:46
which means they're guaranteed
to get out faster
to get out faster
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所以他們乾脆認罪的話
10:48
if they just plead guilty.
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1284
反可更早被釋放。
10:50
So now the choice is:
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1559
他們面對這樣的抉擇：
10:51
Should I stay here in this horrible place,
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2873
我應否待在這鬼地方，
10:54
away from my family and my dependents,
243
642516
2110
在不能和家人孩子一起、
10:56
almost guaranteed to lose my job,
244
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2477
一定會丟了工作的情況下，
10:59
and then fight the charges?
245
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1621
反駁指控？
11:00
Or should I just plead guilty to whatever
the prosecutor wants and get out?
the prosecutor wants and get out?
246
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3569
或是應否任由檢察官定罪，
乾脆認罪早日獲釋？
乾脆認罪早日獲釋？
11:04
And at this point, they're pretrial
detainees, not criminals.
detainees, not criminals.
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2935
這時，他們還只是未經審訊的
被拘留人士而非罪犯，
被拘留人士而非罪犯，
他們一認罪就被稱為罪犯，
11:07
But once they take that plea deal,
we'll call them criminals,
we'll call them criminals,
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655348
2892
然而富裕人士不會落得如此下場，
11:10
even though an affluent person
would never have been in this situation,
would never have been in this situation,
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3380
因為他們有錢給自己保釋。
11:13
because an affluent person
would have simply been bailed out.
would have simply been bailed out.
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2874
11:16
At this point you might be wondering,
251
664566
2090
大家這時候或會問：
11:18
"This guy's in the inspiration section,
what is he doing --
what is he doing --
252
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2794
「這可是給人以鼓舞的舞臺啊，
這傢伙究竟在講甚麼——
這傢伙究竟在講甚麼——
11:21
(Laughter)
253
669498
1160
（笑聲）
11:22
"This is extremely depressing.
I want my money back."
I want my money back."
254
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2806
演講令人沮喪，我要退錢。」
11:25
(Laughter)
255
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1206
（笑聲）
11:26
But in actuality,
256
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2399
但事實上，
11:29
I find talking about jailing much less
depressing than the alternative,
depressing than the alternative,
257
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4390
我認為牢獄反而比其他課題
沒那麼令人沮喪，
沒那麼令人沮喪，
11:33
because I think if we don't talk
about these issues
about these issues
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2436
因為如果我們不去討論這些課題、
11:36
and collectively change
how we think about jailing,
how we think about jailing,
259
684039
2401
使公眾集體改變對牢獄的看法，
11:38
at the end of all of our lives,
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1504
到我們臨終時，
11:39
we'll still have jails full of poor people
who don't belong there.
who don't belong there.
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3131
獄中還會滿是不應被囚禁的窮人。
11:43
That really is depressing to me.
262
691147
1554
這些情景的確令我沮喪，
11:44
But what's exciting to me is the thought
that these stories can move us
that these stories can move us
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3424
但令我鼓舞的是
這些獄中見聞能打動人心，
這些獄中見聞能打動人心，
11:48
to think about jailing in different terms.
264
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2043
使我們從另一角度看牢獄問題。
11:50
Not in sterile policy terms
like "mass incarceration,"
like "mass incarceration,"
265
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3371
不是以「集體囚禁」或者
「監禁非暴力罪犯」
「監禁非暴力罪犯」
11:53
or "sentencing of nonviolent offenders,"
266
701635
1986
這些冷漠的術語探討問題，
11:55
but in human terms.
267
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1166
而是從人性角度探討。
11:56
When we put a human being in a cage
for days or weeks or months
for days or weeks or months
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4585
當我們把一個人困在牢中
數天、數星期、數個月
數天、數星期、數個月
12:01
or even years,
269
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1444
甚至數年，
12:02
what are we doing
to that person's mind and body?
to that person's mind and body?
270
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2349
這對他的身心有何影響？
12:05
Under what conditions
are we really willing to do that?
are we really willing to do that?
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2758
我們真的要這樣對待一個人嗎？
12:08
And so if starting with a few
hundred of us in this room,
hundred of us in this room,
272
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2806
如果在座的數百名觀眾
12:11
we can commit to thinking about
jailing in this different light,
jailing in this different light,
273
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3044
決心從另一角度思考牢獄問題，
12:14
then we can undo that normalization
I was referring to earlier.
I was referring to earlier.
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3480
就可消弭我早前說的習以為常。
12:17
If I leave you with anything today,
I hope it's with the thought
I hope it's with the thought
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若要我說希望各位在
這演講後記住甚麼，
這演講後記住甚麼，
12:21
that if we want anything
to fundamentally change --
to fundamentally change --
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希望大家明白若要作出徹底改變—
12:23
not just to reform our policies
on bail and fines and fees --
on bail and fines and fees --
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不只是改革保釋、罰款和規費制度—
12:26
but also to make sure that whatever
new policies replace those
new policies replace those
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必須確保替代的新制度
12:29
don't punish the poor and the marginalized
in their own new way.
in their own new way.
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不會懲罰貧窮和社會邊緣人士。
12:32
If we want that kind of change,
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我們若要改變現狀，
12:34
then this shift in thinking
is required of each of us.
is required of each of us.
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我們的思維必須有所轉變。
12:37
Thank you.
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多謝大家。
12:38
(Applause)
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（鼓掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Salil Dudani - Legal activistSalil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing.
Why you should listen
As a John Gardner Public Service fellow, Salil Dudani worked on civil rights cases challenging debtors' prisons and money bail. These included cases in Ferguson, Missouri, where people who could not pay fines and court fees were routinely jailed; Rutherford County, Tennessee, where a private probation company would extort impoverished probationers with the threat of jail; and San Francisco and Houston, where thousands of people are in jail cells every night because they cannot afford to post bail. Before this work, Salil was a defense investigator at the Public Defender Service in Washington, D.C. He is now a student at Yale Law School.
Salil Dudani | Speaker | TED.com