ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Ricardo Semler - Organizational changemaker
Two decades after transforming a struggling equipment supplier into a radically democratic and resilient (and successful) company, Ricardo Semler wants organizations to become wise.

Why you should listen
After assuming control of Semler & Company (Semco) from his father in 1980, Brazil's Ricardo Semler began a decades-long quest to create an organization that could function without him, by studying and then implementing what could best be called "corporate democracy", allowing employees to design their own jobs, select their supervisors, and define pay levels. He has then applied the same principles to education, banking and hospitality. All with very good results.

He's now promoting the idea of designing organizations -- companies, schools, NGOs -- for wisdom. With a question as a starting point: If we were to start from scratch, would we design organization X the way we have done it?
More profile about the speaker
Ricardo Semler | Speaker | TED.com
TEDGlobal 2014

Ricardo Semler: How to run a company with (almost) no rules

Filmed:
3,246,933 views

What if your job didn't control your life? Brazilian CEO Ricardo Semler practices a radical form of corporate democracy, rethinking everything from board meetings to how workers report their vacation days (they don't have to). It's a vision that rewards the wisdom of workers, promotes work-life balance — and leads to some deep insight on what work, and life, is really all about. Bonus question: What if schools were like this too?
- Organizational changemaker
Two decades after transforming a struggling equipment supplier into a radically democratic and resilient (and successful) company, Ricardo Semler wants organizations to become wise. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:12
On Mondays and Thursdays,
I learn how to die.
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I call them my terminal days.
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My wife Fernanda doesn't like the term,
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but a lot of people in my family died
of melanoma cancer
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and my parents and grandparents had it.
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And I kept thinking, one day I could
be sitting in front of a doctor
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who looks at my exams and says,
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"Ricardo, things don't look very good.
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You have six months or a year to live."
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And you start thinking about
what you would do with this time.
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And you say, "I'm going to spend
more time with the kids.
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I'm going to visit these places,
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I'm going to go up and down
mountains and places
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and I'm going to do all the things
I didn't do when I had the time."
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But of course, we all know
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these are very bittersweet memories
we're going to have.
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It's very difficult to do.
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You spend a good part of the time
crying, probably.
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01:03
So I said, I'm going to do something else.
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Every Monday and Thursday,
I'm going use my terminal days.
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01:10
And I will do, during those days,
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01:13
whatever it is I was going to do
if I had received that piece of news.
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01:16
(Laughter)
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When you think about --
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(Applause)
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when you think about the opposite of work,
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we, many times, think it's leisure.
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And you say, ah, I need
some leisure time, and so forth.
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But the fact is that,
leisure is a very busy thing.
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01:35
You go play golf and tennis,
and you meet people,
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and you're going for lunch,
and you're late for the movies.
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It's a very crowded thing that we do.
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The opposite of work is idleness.
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But very few of us know
what to do with idleness.
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When you look at the way
that we distribute our lives in general,
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you realize that in the periods
in which we have a lot of money,
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we have very little time.
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02:00
And then when we finally have time,
we have neither the money nor the health.
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02:05
So we started thinking about that
as a company for the last 30 years.
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This is a complicated company
with thousands of employees,
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hundreds of millions
of dollars of business
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that makes rocket fuel propellent systems,
runs 4,000 ATMs in Brazil,
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does income tax preparation
for dozens of thousands.
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So this is not a simple business.
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We looked at it and we said,
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let's devolve to these people,
let's give these people a company
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where we take away
all the boarding school aspects
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of, this is when you arrive,
this is how you dress,
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this is how you go to meetings,
this is what you say,
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this is what you don't say,
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and let's see what's left.
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So we started this about 30 years ago,
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and we started dealing
with this very issue.
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And so we said, look, the retirement,
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the whole issue of how
we distribute our graph of life.
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Instead of going mountain climbing
when you're 82,
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why don't you do it next week?
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03:01
And we'll do it like this,
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we'll sell you back your Wednesdays
for 10 percent of your salary.
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So now, if you were going to be
a violinist, which you probably weren't,
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you go and do this on Wednesday.
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And what we found --
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we thought, these are the older people
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who are going to be really interested
in this program.
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And the average age
of the first people who adhered
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were 29, of course.
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And so we started looking,
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and we said, we have to do things
in a different way.
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So we started saying things like,
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why do we want to know
what time you came to work,
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what time you left, etc.?
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Can't we exchange this for a contract
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for buying something from you,
some kind of work?
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Why are we building these headquarters?
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Is it not an ego issue
that we want to look solid
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and big and important?
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But we're dragging you two hours
across town because of it?
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So we started asking questions one by one.
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We'd say it like this:
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One: How do we find people?
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We'd go out and try
and recruit people and we'd say,
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look, when you come to us,
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we're not going to have
two or three interviews
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and then you're going to be
married to us for life.
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That's not how we do
the rest of our lives.
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So, come have your interviews.
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Anyone who's interested
in interviewing, you will show up.
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And then we'll see what happens
out of the intuition that rises from that,
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instead of just filling out the little
items of whether you're the right person.
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And then, come back.
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Spend an afternoon, spend a whole day,
talk to anybody you want.
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Make sure we are the bride
you thought we were
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and not all the bullshit
we put into our own ads.
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(Laughter)
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Slowly we went to a process
where we'd say things like,
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we don't want anyone to be
a leader in the company
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if they haven't been
interviewed and approved
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by their future subordinates.
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Every six months, everyone gets
evaluated, anonymously, as a leader.
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And this determines whether they should
continue in that leadership position,
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which is many times
situational, as you know.
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And so if they don't have 70, 80 percent
of a grade, they don't stay,
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which is probably the reason why
I haven't been CEO for more than 10 years.
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05:08
And over time, we started asking
other questions.
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We said things like,
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why can't people set their own salaries?
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What do they need to know?
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There's only three things
you need to know:
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how much people make inside the company,
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how much people make somewhere
else in a similar business
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and how much we make in general
to see whether we can afford it.
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So let's give people these three
pieces of information.
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So we started having, in the cafeteria,
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a computer where you could go in
and you could ask
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what someone spent,
how much someone makes,
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what they make in benefits,
what the company makes,
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what the margins are, and so forth.
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And this is 25 years ago.
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As this information started
coming to people,
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we said things like, we don't want
to see your expense report,
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we don't want to know how many
holidays you're taking,
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we don't want to know where you work.
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We had, at one point,
14 different offices around town,
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and we'd say, go to the one
that's closest to your house,
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to the customer that
you're going to visit today.
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Don't tell us where you are.
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And more, even when we had
thousands of people, 5,000 people,
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we had two people in the H.R. department,
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and thankfully one of them has retired.
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(Laughter)
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And so, the question we were asking was,
how can we be taking care of people?
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People are the only thing we have.
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We can't have a department that runs
after people and looks after people.
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So as we started finding that this worked,
and we'd say, we're looking for --
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and this is, I think,
the main thing I was looking for
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in the terminal days and in the company,
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which is, how do you set up for wisdom?
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We've come from an age of revolution,
industrial revolution,
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an age of information,
an age of knowledge,
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but we're not any closer
to the age of wisdom.
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How we design, how do we organize,
for more wisdom?
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So for example, many times,
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what's the smartest or the intelligent
decision doesn't jive.
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So we'd say things like,
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let's agree that you're going to sell
57 widgets per week.
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If you sell them by Wednesday,
please go to the beach.
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Don't create a problem for us,
for manufacturing, for application,
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then we have to buy new companies,
we have to buy our competitors,
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we have to do all kinds of things
because you sold too many widgets.
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So go to the beach
and start again on Monday.
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(Laughter) (Applause)
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So the process is looking for wisdom.
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And in the process, of course,
we wanted people to know everything,
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and we wanted to be truly democratic
about the way we ran things.
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So our board had two seats open
with the same voting rights,
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for the first two people who showed up.
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(Laughter)
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And so we had cleaning ladies voting
on a board meeting,
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which had a lot of other very important
people in suits and ties.
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And the fact is that they kept us honest.
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This process, as we started looking
at the people who came to us,
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we'd say, now wait a second,
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people come to us and they say,
where am I supposed to sit?
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How am I supposed to work?
Where am I going to be in 5 years' time?
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And we looked at that and we said,
we have to start much earlier.
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Where do we start?
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We said, oh, kindergarten
seems like a good place.
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So we set up a foundation, which now has,
for 11 years, three schools,
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where we started asking
the same questions,
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how do you redesign school for wisdom?
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It is one thing to say,
we need to recycle the teachers,
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we need the directors to do more.
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But the fact is that what we do
with education is entirely obsolete.
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The teacher's role is entirely obsolete.
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Going from a math class, to biology,
to 14th-century France is very silly.
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(Applause)
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So we started thinking,
what could it look like?
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And we put together people,
including people who like education,
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people like Paulo Freire,
and two ministers of education in Brazil
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and we said, if we were to design
a school from scratch,
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what would it look like?
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And so we created this school,
which is called Lumiar,
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and Lumiar, one of them
is a public school,
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and Lumiar says the following:
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Let's divide this role
of the teacher into two.
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One guy, we'll call a tutor.
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A tutor, in the old sense of the Greek
"paideia": Look after the kid.
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What's happening at home,
what's their moment in life, etc..
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But please don't teach,
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because the little you know compared
to Google, we don't want to know.
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Keep that to yourself.
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(Laughter)
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Now, we'll bring in people
who have two things:
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passion and expertise, and it could be
their profession or not.
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And we use the senior citizens,
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who are 25 percent of the population
with wisdom that nobody wants anymore.
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So we bring them to school and we say,
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teach these kids whatever
you really believe in.
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So we have violinists teaching math.
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We have all kinds of things where we say,
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don't worry about
the course material anymore.
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We have approximately 10 great threads
that go from 2 to 17.
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Things like, how do we measure
ourselves as humans?
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So there's a place for math and physics
and all that there.
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How do we express ourselves?
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So there's a place
for music and literature, etc.,
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but also for grammar.
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10:24
And then we have things
that everyone has forgotten,
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which are probably the most
important things in life.
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The very important things in life,
we know nothing about.
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We know nothing about love,
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we know nothing about death,
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we know nothing about why we're here.
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So we need a thread in school that
talks about everything we don't know.
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So that's a big part of what we do.
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(Applause)
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So over the years, we started going
into other things.
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We'd say, why do we have to scold the kids
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10:57
and say, sit down and come here
and do that, and so forth.
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We said, let's get the kids to do
something we call a circle,
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which meets once a week.
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And we'd say, you put the rules together
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and then you decide
what you want to do with it.
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So can you all hit yourself on the head?
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Sure, for a week, try.
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They came up with the very same
rules that we had,
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except they're theirs.
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And then, they have the power,
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which means, they can and do
suspend and expel kids
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so that we're not playing school,
they really decide.
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And then, in this same vein,
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we keep a digital mosaic,
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because this is not constructivist
or Montessori or something.
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It's something where we keep
the Brazilian curriculum
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with 600 tiles of a mosaic,
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which we want to expose these kids
to by the time they're 17.
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And follow this all the time
and we know how they're doing
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and we say, you're not interested
in this now, let's wait a year.
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And the kids are in groups
that don't have an age category,
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so the six-year-old kid
who is ready for that with an 11-year-old,
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that eliminates all of the gangs
and the groups
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and this stuff that we have
in the schools, in general.
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And they have a zero
to 100 percent grading,
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which they do themselves with an app
every couple of hours.
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Until we know they're 37 percent of the
way we'd like them to be on this issue,
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so that we can send them out in the world
with them knowing enough about it.
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And so the courses are World Cup Soccer,
or building a bicycle.
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And people will sign up for
a 45-day course on building a bicycle.
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Now, try to build a bicycle without
knowing that pi is 3.1416.
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You can't.
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And try, any one of you,
using 3.1416 for something.
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You don't know anymore.
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So this is lost and that's what
we try to do there,
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12:51
which is looking
for wisdom in that school.
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12:53
And that brings us back to this graph
and this distribution of our life.
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12:59
I accumulated a lot of money
when I think about it.
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13:01
When you think and you say,
now is the time to give back --
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13:05
well, if you're giving back,
you took too much.
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13:08
(Laughter) (Applause)
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I keep thinking of Warren Buffet
waking up one day
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13:19
and finding out he has 30 billion dollars
more than he thought he had.
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3384
13:22
And he looks and he says,
what am I going to do with this?
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13:25
And he says, I'll give it to someone
who really needs this.
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13:28
I'll give it to Bill Gates. (Laughter)
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13:32
And my guy, who's my financial
advisor in New York,
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13:35
he says, look, you're a silly guy
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1893
13:37
because you would have 4.1 times
more money today
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13:40
if you had made money with money
instead of sharing as you go.
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13:44
But I like sharing as you go better.
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13:46
(Applause)
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I taught MBAs at MIT for a time
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13:54
and I ended up, one day,
at the Mount Auburn Cemetery.
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13:56
It is a beautiful cemetery in Cambridge.
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1944
13:58
And I was walking around.
It was my birthday and I was thinking.
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14:01
And the first time around,
I saw these tombstones
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14:04
and these wonderful people
who'd done great things
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14:06
and I thought, what do I want
to be remembered for?
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14:10
And I did another stroll around,
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14:12
and the second time,
another question came to me,
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14:14
which did me better, which was,
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14:17
why do I want to be remembered at all?
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14:20
(Laughter)
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14:22
And that, I think,
took me different places.
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14:25
When I was 50, my wife Fernanda and I
sat for a whole afternoon,
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14:29
we had a big pit with fire,
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14:31
and I threw everything I had ever
done into that fire.
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14:35
This is a book in 38 languages,
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14:37
hundreds and hundreds of articles
and DVDs, everything there was.
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3547
14:41
And that did two things.
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1420
14:42
One, it freed our five kids
from following in our steps, our shadow --
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14:47
They don't know what I do.
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14:49
(Laughter)
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14:50
Which is good.
292
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1309
14:51
And I'm not going to take them somewhere
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14:53
and say, one day
all of this will be yours.
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14:55
(Laughter)
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14:57
The five kids know nothing, which is good.
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3532
15:00
And the second thing is,
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1681
15:02
I freed myself from this anchor
of past achievement or whatever.
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15:07
I'm free to start something new every time
and to decide things from scratch
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15:11
in part of those terminal days.
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2121
15:13
And some people would say,
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1417
15:15
oh, so now you have this time,
these terminal days,
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2538
15:17
and so you go out and do everything.
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1858
15:19
No, we've been to the beaches,
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2322
15:22
so we've been to Samoa and Maldives
and Mozambique,
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2562
15:24
so that's done.
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1766
15:26
I've climbed mountains in the Himalayas.
307
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2109
15:28
I've gone down 60 meters to see
hammerhead sharks.
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3871
15:32
I've spent 59 days on the back of a camel
from Chad to Timbuktu.
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4551
15:36
I've gone to the magnetic
North Pole on a dog sled.
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3991
15:40
So, we've been busy.
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1776
15:42
It's what I'd like to call
my empty bucket list.
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6003
15:48
(Laughter)
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2979
15:51
And with this rationale,
I look at these days and I think,
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3557
15:55
I'm not retired.
I don't feel retired at all.
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2519
15:57
And so I'm writing a new book.
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2141
15:59
We started three new companies
in the last two years.
317
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3813
16:03
I'm now working on getting this
school system for free out into the world,
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5203
16:08
and I've found, very interestingly enough,
that nobody wants it for free.
319
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3429
16:12
And so I've been trying for 10 years
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1938
16:14
to get the public system
to take over this school rationale,
321
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3425
16:17
much as the public schools we have,
322
965750
2395
16:20
which has instead of 43 out of 100,
as their rating, as their grades,
323
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4697
16:24
has 91 out of 100.
324
972842
2689
16:27
But for free, nobody wants it.
325
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2433
16:29
So maybe we'll start charging for it
and then it will go somewhere.
326
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3194
16:33
But getting this out is one
of the things we want to do.
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3781
16:36
And I think what this leaves us
as a message for all of you,
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3317
16:40
I think is a little bit like this:
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1752
16:42
We've all learned
how to go on Sunday night
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3157
16:45
to email and work from home.
331
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2417
16:47
But very few of us have learned
332
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1710
16:49
how to go to the movies
on Monday afternoon.
333
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3130
16:52
And if we're looking for wisdom,
we need to learn to do that as well.
334
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4101
16:56
And so, what we've done all
of these years is very simple,
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3650
17:00
is use the little tool,
which is ask three whys in a row.
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1008173
3172
17:03
Because the first why
you always have a good answer for.
337
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2761
17:06
The second why,
it starts getting difficult.
338
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2415
17:08
By the third why, you don't really know
why you're doing what you're doing.
339
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3939
17:12
What I want to leave you with is the seed
and the thought that maybe if you do this,
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6228
17:18
you will come to the question, what for?
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2756
17:21
What am I doing this for?
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1502
17:22
And hopefully, as a result of that,
and over time,
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2881
17:25
I hope that with this,
and that's what I'm wishing you,
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3133
17:28
you'll have a much wiser future.
345
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2703
17:31
Thank you very much.
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17:33
(Applause)
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7539
17:45
Chris Anderson: So Ricardo,
you're kind of crazy.
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5087
17:51
(Laughter)
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1825
17:52
To many people, this seems crazy.
350
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3180
17:56
And yet so deeply wise, also.
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3389
17:59
The pieces I'm trying
to put together are this:
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2909
18:02
Your ideas are so radical.
353
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2095
18:04
How, in business, for example,
these ideas have been out for a while,
354
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5049
18:10
probably the percentage of businesses
that have taken some of them
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3210
18:13
is still quite low.
356
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1902
18:15
Are there any times you've seen
some big company
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2898
18:18
take on one of your ideas
and you've gone, "Yes!"?
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3629
18:21
Ricardo Semler: It happens.
It happened about two weeks ago
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2797
18:24
with Richard Branson,
with his people saying,
360
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2210
18:26
oh, I don't want to control
your holidays anymore,
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2532
18:29
or Netflix does a little bit
of this and that,
362
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2184
18:31
but I don't think it's very important.
363
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2327
18:33
I'd like to see it happen maybe a little
bit in a bit of a missionary zeal,
364
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3754
18:37
but that's a very personal one.
365
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1574
18:39
But the fact is that it takes a leap
of faith about losing control.
366
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4212
18:43
And almost nobody who is in control
is ready to take leaps of faith.
367
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3296
18:46
It will have to come from kids
and other people
368
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2340
18:49
who are starting companies
in a different way.
369
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2242
18:51
CA: So that's the key thing?
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1508
18:52
From your point of view
the evidence is there,
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2199
18:55
in the business point of view this works,
372
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1996
18:57
but people just don't have
the courage to -- (Whoosh)
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2708
18:59
RS: They don't even have the incentive.
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2122
19:01
You're running a company
with a 90-day mandate.
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2756
19:04
It's a quarterly report.
376
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1879
19:06
If you're not good in 90 days, you're out.
377
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2218
19:08
So you say, "Here's a great program that,
in less than one generation --"
378
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3921
19:12
And the guy says, "Get out of here."
379
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1924
19:14
So this is the problem.
380
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1891
19:16
(Laughter)
381
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2915
19:19
CA: What you're trying to do in education
seems to me incredibly profound.
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5316
19:24
Everyone is bothered about
their country's education system.
383
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4498
19:29
No one thinks that
we've caught up yet to a world
384
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2773
19:31
where there's Google and all these
technological options.
385
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2950
19:34
So you've got actual evidence now that
the kids so far going through your system,
386
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3870
19:38
there's a dramatic increase
in performance.
387
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2552
19:41
How do we help you move
these ideas forward?
388
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2565
19:43
RS: I think it's that problem
of ideas whose time has come.
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3984
19:48
And I've never been very evangelical
about these things.
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3502
19:52
We put it out there.
391
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1541
19:53
Suddenly, you find people --
392
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1445
19:55
there's a group in Japan,
which scares me very much,
393
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2515
19:57
which is called the Semlerists,
and they have 120 companies.
394
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3165
20:00
They've invited me.
I've always been scared to go.
395
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4371
20:05
And there is a group in Holland
that has 600 small, Dutch companies.
396
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5175
20:10
It's something that
will flourish on its own.
397
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2677
20:13
Part of it will be wrong,
and it doesn't matter.
398
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2491
20:15
This will find its own place.
399
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2077
20:17
And I'm afraid
of the other one, which says,
400
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2485
20:20
this is so good you've got to do this.
401
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1932
20:22
Let's set up a system
and put lots of money into it
402
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2666
20:24
and then people will do it no matter what.
403
1212792
2527
20:27
CA: So you have asked
extraordinary questions your whole life.
404
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3244
20:30
It seems to me that's the fuel
that's driven a lot of this.
405
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2833
20:33
Do you have any other questions for us,
for TED, for this group here?
406
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5869
20:39
RS: I always come back
to variations of the question
407
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4589
20:43
that my son asked me when he was three.
408
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3251
20:47
We were sitting in a jacuzzi,
and he said, "Dad, why do we exist?"
409
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3941
20:51
There is no other question.
410
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1564
20:52
Nobody has any other question.
411
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1514
20:54
We have variations of this one question,
from three onwards.
412
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3989
20:58
So when you spend time in a company,
in a bureaucracy, in an organization
413
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5396
21:03
and you're saying, boy --
414
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1623
21:05
how many people do you know
who on their death beds said,
415
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2717
21:07
boy, I wish I had spent
more time at the office?
416
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2405
21:10
So there's a whole thing
of having the courage now --
417
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5050
21:15
not in a week, not in two months,
418
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1908
21:17
not when you find out
you have something --
419
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2294
21:19
to say, no, what am I doing this for?
420
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2872
21:22
Stop everything. Let me do something else.
421
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2117
21:24
And it will be okay,
422
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1565
21:26
it will be much better
than what you're doing,
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2271
21:28
if you're stuck in a process.
424
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3108
21:31
CA: So that strikes me as a profound
and quite beautiful way to end
425
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3202
21:34
this penultimate day of TED.
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1626
21:36
Ricardo Semler, thank you so much.
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1678
21:37
RS: Thank you so much.
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1577
21:39
(Applause)
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1652

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Ricardo Semler - Organizational changemaker
Two decades after transforming a struggling equipment supplier into a radically democratic and resilient (and successful) company, Ricardo Semler wants organizations to become wise.

Why you should listen
After assuming control of Semler & Company (Semco) from his father in 1980, Brazil's Ricardo Semler began a decades-long quest to create an organization that could function without him, by studying and then implementing what could best be called "corporate democracy", allowing employees to design their own jobs, select their supervisors, and define pay levels. He has then applied the same principles to education, banking and hospitality. All with very good results.

He's now promoting the idea of designing organizations -- companies, schools, NGOs -- for wisdom. With a question as a starting point: If we were to start from scratch, would we design organization X the way we have done it?
More profile about the speaker
Ricardo Semler | Speaker | TED.com

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