Jonathan Haidt: Can a divided America heal?
조나단 하이트(Jonathan Haidt): 분열된 미국의 치유는 가능한가?
Jonathan Haidt studies how -- and why -- we evolved to be moral and political creatures. Full bioChris Anderson - TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
존, 요즘은 두려움마저 듭니다.
in the way that we're familiar with,
정치적 분열 이상으로
and how did we get here?
어쩌다 이렇게 된 걸까요?
apocalyptic sort of feeling.
that the other side is not just --
반대쪽에 느끼는 감정은
we strongly dislike them,
강하게 싫어하고
a threat to the nation.
된다고 생각한답니다.
now on both sides.
than before; it's much more intense.
훨씬 강도가 센 거죠.
at any sort of social puzzle,
principles of moral psychology,
have to always keep in mind
insights into human social nature
가장 명료한 통찰이
against the stranger."
내 사촌 상대로 이방인."
to create large societies
거대 사회를 형성했고
in order to compete with others.
and out of small groups,
작은 촌락을 벗어나게 되었지만
eternal conflict.
충돌을 겪게 되었습니다.
우리를 더 쓰라리게 만들며
are making that more bitter,
baked into most people's mental wiring
우리 대부분의 도덕적 회로에
a basic aspect of human social cognition.
인간의 기본적 사회적 인지 방식이에요.
really peacefully,
평화롭게 공존할 줄도 압니다.
of fun ways of, like, playing war.
여러 놀이도 고안했어요.
to exercise this tribal nature
and exploration and meeting new people.
만나는 데도 탁월하기 때문에
as something that goes up or down --
나빴다 한다고 보시면 됩니다.
to always be fighting each other,
또한 불가능한 겁니다.
can shrink or expand.
줄어들 수도 커질 수도 있죠.
생각하는 기준은 바뀔 수 있습니다.
could continue indefinitely.
끝없이 계속될 수 있다고 생각합니다.
'우리' 의 영역을 더 넓혀 나가고 있었어요.
the sense of tribe for a while.
the new left-right distinction.
구분법이 나타난다고 봐요.
as we've all inherited it,
전통적인 좌파-우파의 구분은
versus capital distinction,
나오는 구분이요.
now, increasingly,
모든 서구 민주사회에서
who want to stop at nation,
'국가' 에서 멈추길 바라는 사람들
사람들이 있습니다.
of a sense of being rooted,
훨씬 강한 사람들이고
their community and their nation.
국가를 사랑합니다.
anti-parochial and who --
사람들이 있습니다.
of the John Lennon song "Imagine."
전 존 레논의 '이메진' 을 떠올려요.
nothing to kill or die for."
죽일 이유도 죽을 이유도 없지요."
who want more global governance,
they don't like borders.
많이 볼 수 있습니다.
actually, his name is Shakespeare --
사실 셰익스피어인데요.
or drawbridge-downers?"
아니면 도개교를 내리는 자들인가?"
52-48 on that point.
나뉘어져 있습니다.
who grew up with The Beatles
of dreaming of a more connected world --
세상을 꿈꾸는 우리들에겐
anyone think badly about that?"
누가 그런 생각을 나쁘게 여길까 합니다.
feel that that isn't just silly;
그런 이상이 실없다고 느낄뿐만 아니라
and they're scared of it.
두려워하고 있다는 거군요.
in Europe but also here,
유럽에서 특히 그렇지만 미국에서도
we have to look very carefully
이민의 사회 과학을
about diversity and immigration.
that the left loves and the right --
애정을 받고 우파에게선
can't think straight about it.
객관적이기 어렵습니다.
has grown enormously from it.
어마어마하게 성장했죠.
do a lot of good things.
긍정적인 결과를 낼 수 있습니다.
I think, don't see,
cuts social capital and trust.
신뢰도를 낮춘다는 것입니다.
study by Robert Putnam,
아주 중요한 연구를 했어요.
feel that they are the same,
서로와 같다고 느낄수록
a redistributionist welfare state.
이룰 수 있다는 것입니다.
of being small, homogenous countries.
국가들이니까요.
a progressive welfare state,
left-leaning values, which says,
가치관을 가능케 했습니다.
The world is a great place.
세상은 멋진 곳이야.
we must welcome them in."
이들을 환영하며 받아들여야 해."
this summer,
올 여름 저는 스웨덴에 있었는데
is fairly politically correct
정치적으로 올바르고
말하기 힘든 분위기라면
힘들어 질 것입니다.
as we have in America,
racially divided, society.
될지도 모르는 일입니다.
uncomfortable to talk about.
especially in Europe and for us, too,
그리고 여기 미국이
themselves not racists,
아니라고 생각하는
humans are just too different;
너무나도 다르기 때문에
our sense of what humans are capable of,
인간으로서 가능한 포용 범위를
할 수 있다는 거군요.
much more palatable
듣기 좋게 해보자면
아니라는 겁니다.
scientist named Karen Stenner,
훌륭한 책에 의하면
we're all the same,
a predisposition to authoritarianism.
there's not a threat
people are getting more different,
서로 더 달라진다고 느끼게 만들면
they want to kick out the deviants.
일탈자들을 추방시키고 싶어하게 돼요.
an authoritarian reaction.
권위주의적 반응이라는 겁니다.
the Lennonist line --
an authoritarian reaction.
이끌어 내게 됩니다.
in America with the alt-right.
we've seen it all over Europe.
같은 현상이 나타났어요.
or the nationalists, are actually right --
맞는 점도 있다는 거예요.
our cultural similarity,
matter very much.
상관이 없다는 겁니다.
approach to immigration
a generous welfare state,
that we're all the same.
강조해야 합니다.
and fears about that
늘어나는 이민과 그에 대한 두려움이
of the current divide.
하나라는 것이죠.
strategic reasoning second.
그 다음이라는 겁니다.
the term "motivated reasoning"
표현을 들어보셨을 겁니다.
연구들이 나왔는데요.
and our verbal abilities
not to help us find out the truth,
defend our reputation ...
보호하기 위해 진화했다는 겁니다.
at justifying ourselves.
아주 아주 뛰어납니다.
group interests into account,
it's my team versus your team,
우리편 대 상대편이 되지요.
that your side is wrong,
a political argument.
승자가 없는 이유예요.
with reasons and evidence,
상대방을 설득시킬 수 없습니다.
the way reasoning works.
그렇게 사고하지 않거든요.
give us Google:
was born in Kenya.
10 million hits! Look, he was!"
조회수가 천만 건이네! 진짜였네!"
surprise to a lot of people.
불쾌한 놀라움으로 다가왔습니다.
by techno-optimists
that would bring people together.
위대한 연결력으로 보지만
unexpected counter-effects to that.
of yin-yang views
좌-우파등에서
about certain things,
that human nature is good:
성선설을 믿는 편이지요.
the walls and all will be well.
모든 문제가 해결될 거라고요.
not libertarians --
사회적 보수주의자들이요.
believe people can be greedy
성욕에 따라 행동하며
and we need restrictions.
필요하다고 하지요.
all over the world,
마음껏 소통하게 만들면
인종차별도 생겨날 겁니다.
원칙에 따라 행동했다는 건데요.
have been with us forever.
this feeling of division?
깊어진 이유는 뭔가요?
different threads all coming together.
요소들이 합쳐지고 있어요.
actually, America and Europe --
2차 세계대전입니다.
from Joe Henrich and others
흥미로운 연구가 있어요.
전쟁을 겪었다고 칩시다.
in a commons dilemma
여러분은 더 협조적일 겁니다.
2차 세계 대전때 청소년이었어요.
during World War II,
looking for scraps of aluminum
and government,
at compromise and cooperation.
협력에 아주 능숙해요.
by the end of the '90s.
each other within each country,
서로와 싸우며 보냈어요.
"The Greatest Generation,"
"가장 위대한 세대" 의 상실은
is the purification of the two parties.
더 정제되었다는 겁니다.
보수적 민주당원도 있었어요.
and conservative Democrats.
that was really bipartisan.
매우 양당적이었습니다.
that started things moving,
흐름의 시작으로
liberal party and conservative party.
진보당과 보수당이 생겨났죠.
really are different,
정말 달라진 겁니다.
our children to marry them,
결혼하는 걸 반대할 정도로요.
didn't matter very much.
별로 상관이 없었어요.
각 당파의 정제화입니다.
제가 말했듯이
for post-hoc reasoning and demonization.
더할나위 없는 자극제예요.
on the internet now is quite troubling.
너무나 우려스럽습니다.
on Twitter about the election
트위터 검색을 했는데요.
그래피티의 사진과 함께
brought to us by #Trump."
우리나라의 추한 모습"
dedication page. Disgusting!"
페이지. 혐오스러워!"
is troubling to me.
전 참 불편해요.
or a disagreement about something,
의견차이는 있을 수 있습니다.
takes things to a much deeper level.
훨씬 깊은 의미가 있다고 봐요.
you get angry, you're not angry;
화가 났다가 나지 않았다가
as subhuman, monstrous,
잉크와도 같습니다.
on marital therapy.
치료에 관한 연구 결과를 보면
of the couple shows disgust or contempt,
혐오나 역겨움이 나타나면
to get divorced soon,
that doesn't predict anything,
예측 상관이 없었습니다.
it actually is good.
오히려 관계에 도움이 되거든요.
uses the word "disgust" a lot.
"혐오" 라는 표현을 아주 많이 써요.
so disgust does matter a lot --
"역겨움" 이란 감정은
unique to him --
the Manichaean worldview,
is a battle between good and evil
대결이라고 보면서요.
they're wrong or I don't like them,
틀렸다거나 싫다는 표현을 넘어
표현을 쓰게 됩니다.
싶어하지 않게 돼요.
for example, on campus now.
원인이라고 생각됩니다.
to keep people off campus,
들이지 말자는 목소리가 늘고 있어요.
멀리 하는 거죠.
generation of young people,
involves a lot of disgust,
혐오로 점철되어 있다면
in politics as they get older.
멀어질까 하는 겁니다.
어떻게 대처해야 하나요?
진정시킬 수 있죠?
and I think about emotions a lot.
감정들에 대해 많이 생각해왔어요.
of disgust is actually love.
반대는 사랑입니다.
경계를 만드는 겁니다.
powerful means we have.
강력한 방법일 겁니다.
혐오감을 느낀다고 해 봅시다.
that they're lovely.
or changes your category as well.
점점 허물거나 바꾸어 나갈 겁니다.
much more mixed up in the their towns
마을들은 지금보다 훨씬 더
사람들이 살았습니다.
this great moral divide,
거대한 도덕적 간극이 되어
that we're moving to be near people
맞는 사람들과 살기 위해
많이 나오고 있습니다.
who's on the other side.
만나기가 더 힘들어진거죠.
or say to Americans,
혹은 누구에게든
about each other
thing to keep in mind --
scientist Alan Abramowitz,
연구에 의하면
is increasingly governed
지배되고 있습니다.
OK there's a candidate,
you vote for the candidate.
마음에 들면 표를 주겠죠.
and all sorts of other trends,
the other side so horrible, so awful,
추악하게 만들어서
만드는 방식이 되었어요.
against the other side
누군가를 지지해서 보다는
that if people are on the left,
그렇게 생각하게 될 거예요.
that Republicans were bad,
사람들이라고 생각은 했었지만
I can paint with all the things
내가 생각하는 트럼프와
with their candidate.
별로 만족하지 않게 되고요.
election in American history.
부정적 당파심이 심했던 선거였습니다.
your feelings about the candidate
특정 후보에 대한 감정과
who are given a choice.
감정을 분리하는 것입니다.
in a separate moral world --
살고 있다는 겁니다.
is that we're all trapped in "The Matrix,"
매트릭스에 갇혀 있다고 표현했죠.
a consensual hallucination.
매트릭스 같은 동의하의 환각이요.
that the other side --
they're the worst people in the world,
세계 최악의 인간이란 게요.
to back that up.
사실들도 아주 탄탄합니다.
살고 있다고 할까요.
different set of facts.
사실들을 보고 있습니다.
different threats to the country.
위협들을 보는 겁니다.
from being in the middle
is: both sides are right.
발견한 건 양쪽 다 맞다는 겁니다.
to this country,
전부 볼 수는 없는 법이니까요.
incapable of seeing them all.
that we almost need a new type of empathy?
공감능력이 필요하다는 말씀이신가요?
I can put myself in your shoes."
당신의 입장을 알겠어요."
the needy, the suffering.
고통받는 이들에게 적용하지만
to people who we feel as other,
적용하지는 않죠.
to build that type of empathy?
키운다면 어떨까요?
hot topic in psychology,
아주 뜨거운 주제예요.
on the left in particular.
for the preferred classes of victims.
선호하는 피해자 계층에게 그렇죠.
think are so important.
공감은 중요합니다.
because you get points for that.
if you do it when it's hard to do.
어려울 때 공감하는 겁니다.
of dealing with our race problems
for a long time
최우선 과제였습니다.
threat on our hands.
위협이 닥쳤다는 걸요.
제가 믿기로는 단연코
divide we face.
and gender and LGBT,
여전히 존재합니다.
of the next 50 years,
향후 50년간 가장 위급한 문제고
to get better on their own.
해결되는 문제가 아닙니다.
a lot of institutional reforms,
제도적 개정이 필요합니다.
wonky conversation.
realizing that this is a turning point.
현재 우리가 전환점에 있다는 자각입니다.
종류의 공감이 필요합니다.
if you don't want to --
to spend the next four years
분노하고 걱정하며
for the last year -- raise your hand.
손 들어보세요.
read Marcus Aurelius.
마르쿠스 아우렐리우스를 읽으세요.
for how to drop the fear,
두려움을 내려 놓을 수 있는지
않을 수 있는지 가르쳐 줍니다.
wisdom for this kind of empathy.
공감에 대해 많은 걸 배울 수 있어요.
무엇을 할 수 있을까요?
people do to help heal?
to overcome your deepest prejudices.
그냥 이겨내겠다고 결심하는 건 어렵습니다.
and stronger than race prejudices
인종 편견보다 더 깊고 강하답니다.
that's the main thing.
노력하고 시도하는 겁니다.
만나도록 노력해 보세요.
사촌이나, 시아주버님이나
awful for one of you --
괴로운 상태일테니까요.
reach out and say you want to talk.
대화를 나누고 싶다고 연락해 보세요.
Friends and Influence People" --
인간 관계론을 읽으세요.
상대편을 인정하며 시작하는 걸요.
if you start by acknowledging,
많은 부분 의견이 다르지만
about you, Uncle Bob,"
정말 존경하는 점은..."
정말 존경하는 점은..."
appreciation, it's like magic.
마법같은 효력이 있어요.
things I've learned
중요한 점 중 하나입니다.
at apologizing now,
잘 할 수 있게 되었고
somebody was right about.
인정하는 것도 잘 하게 되었어요.
and it's actually really fun.
아주 재밌는 대화를 할 수 있어요.
speaking with you.
the ground that we're on
of morality and human nature.
심오한 질문으로 점철된 곳 같습니다.
와닿는 때가 없겠습니다.
this time with us.
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Jonathan Haidt - Social psychologistJonathan Haidt studies how -- and why -- we evolved to be moral and political creatures.
Why you should listen
By understanding more about our moral psychology and its biases, Jonathan Haidt says we can design better institutions (including companies, universities and democracy itself), and we can learn to be more civil and open-minded toward those who are not on our team.
Haidt is a social psychologist whose research on morality across cultures led to his 2008 TED Talk on the psychological roots of the American culture war, and his 2013 TED Talk on how "common threats can make common ground." In both of those talks he asks, "Can't we all disagree more constructively?" Haidt's 2012 TED Talk explored the intersection of his work on morality with his work on happiness to talk about "hive psychology" -- the ability that humans have to lose themselves in groups pursuing larger projects, almost like bees in a hive. This hivish ability is crucial, he argues, for understanding the origins of morality, politics, and religion. These are ideas that Haidt develops at greater length in his book, The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion.
Haidt joined New York University Stern School of Business in July 2011. He is the Thomas Cooley Professor of Ethical Leadership, based in the Business and Society Program. Before coming to Stern, Professor Haidt taught for 16 years at the University of Virginia in the department of psychology.
Haidt's writings appear frequently in the New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. He was named one of the top global thinkers by Foreign Policy magazine and by Prospect magazine. Haidt received a B.A. in Philosophy from Yale University, and an M.A. and Ph.D. in Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania.
Jonathan Haidt | Speaker | TED.com
Chris Anderson - TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading.
Why you should listen
Chris Anderson is the Curator of TED, a nonprofit devoted to sharing valuable ideas, primarily through the medium of 'TED Talks' -- short talks that are offered free online to a global audience.
Chris was born in a remote village in Pakistan in 1957. He spent his early years in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, where his parents worked as medical missionaries, and he attended an American school in the Himalayas for his early education. After boarding school in Bath, England, he went on to Oxford University, graduating in 1978 with a degree in philosophy, politics and economics.
Chris then trained as a journalist, working in newspapers and radio, including two years producing a world news service in the Seychelles Islands.
Back in the UK in 1984, Chris was captivated by the personal computer revolution and became an editor at one of the UK's early computer magazines. A year later he founded Future Publishing with a $25,000 bank loan. The new company initially focused on specialist computer publications but eventually expanded into other areas such as cycling, music, video games, technology and design, doubling in size every year for seven years. In 1994, Chris moved to the United States where he built Imagine Media, publisher of Business 2.0 magazine and creator of the popular video game users website IGN. Chris eventually merged Imagine and Future, taking the combined entity public in London in 1999, under the Future name. At its peak, it published 150 magazines and websites and employed 2,000 people.
This success allowed Chris to create a private nonprofit organization, the Sapling Foundation, with the hope of finding new ways to tackle tough global issues through media, technology, entrepreneurship and, most of all, ideas. In 2001, the foundation acquired the TED Conference, then an annual meeting of luminaries in the fields of Technology, Entertainment and Design held in Monterey, California, and Chris left Future to work full time on TED.
He expanded the conference's remit to cover all topics, including science, business and key global issues, while adding a Fellows program, which now has some 300 alumni, and the TED Prize, which grants its recipients "one wish to change the world." The TED stage has become a place for thinkers and doers from all fields to share their ideas and their work, capturing imaginations, sparking conversation and encouraging discovery along the way.
In 2006, TED experimented with posting some of its talks on the Internet. Their viral success encouraged Chris to begin positioning the organization as a global media initiative devoted to 'ideas worth spreading,' part of a new era of information dissemination using the power of online video. In June 2015, the organization posted its 2,000th talk online. The talks are free to view, and they have been translated into more than 100 languages with the help of volunteers from around the world. Viewership has grown to approximately one billion views per year.
Continuing a strategy of 'radical openness,' in 2009 Chris introduced the TEDx initiative, allowing free licenses to local organizers who wished to organize their own TED-like events. More than 8,000 such events have been held, generating an archive of 60,000 TEDx talks. And three years later, the TED-Ed program was launched, offering free educational videos and tools to students and teachers.
Chris Anderson | Speaker | TED.com