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Jonathan Haidt: Can a divided America heal?

Jonathan Haidt: 我们能否重愈美国之隙?

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在2016年消极的总统选举之后,美国应该如何恢复?社会心理学家Jonathan Haidt研究构成政治选择的道德基础。在与TED负责人克里斯·安德森的谈话中, 他描述了导致美国这种尖锐分裂的思维方式和历史原因,并提供了这个国家如何向前迈进的蓝图。

- Social psychologist
Jonathan Haidt studies how -- and why -- we evolved to be moral. By understanding more about our moral roots, his hope is that we can learn to be civil and open-minded. Full bio

- TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading. Full bio

Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.
Jon, 这感觉真有点恐怖。
00:12
Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.
JH:是的。
00:15
CA: It feels like the world is in a place
CA: 好像世人形同陌路,
00:16
that we haven't seen for a long time.
不曾相识。
00:18
People don't just disagree
in the way that we're familiar with,
人们不只是一如往常,
00:20
on the left-right political divide.
对左右派的分歧争执不休,
00:24
There are much deeper differences afoot.
还有更深层次的疏离。
00:26
What on earth is going on,
and how did we get here?
究竟发生了什么?
我们为何变成这样?
00:29
JH: This is different.
JH: 现在不同以往,
00:33
There's a much more
apocalyptic sort of feeling.
有种世界末日般绝望的感觉。
00:36
Survey research by Pew Research shows
皮尤研究的调查显示,
00:39
that the degree to which we feel
that the other side is not just --
我们对另一派的感觉程度,
00:41
we don't just dislike them;
we strongly dislike them,
并不是简单地不喜欢他们
或强烈地不喜欢他们。
00:45
and we think that they are
a threat to the nation.
我们觉得对方对整个民族造成了威胁。
00:48
Those numbers have been going up and up,
这些人的占比一直在上升,
00:51
and those are over 50 percent
now on both sides.
现在两边具有这种想法的人都超过了50%。
00:53
People are scared,
人们感到恐惧,
00:56
because it feels like this is different
than before; it's much more intense.
因为这种感觉有别于以前,
而且特别的强烈。
00:57
Whenever I look
at any sort of social puzzle,
每当我审视社会难题时,
01:01
I always apply the three basic
principles of moral psychology,
我都会采用三个最基本的
道德心理学原则,
01:04
and I think they'll help us here.
在这里应该也能起到作用。
01:07
So the first thing that you
have to always keep in mind
所以,当考虑政治问题时,
01:09
when you're thinking about politics
必须首先意识到,
01:11
is that we're tribal.
我们是部落式的,
01:13
We evolved for tribalism.
我们演化为部落主义。
01:15
One of the simplest and greatest
insights into human social nature
其中最简单且最伟大
揭示人类社会本质的谚语
01:16
is the Bedouin proverb:
是由贝都因总结的:
01:19
"Me against my brother;
“ 我反对我的兄弟;
01:20
me and my brother against our cousin;
我和我兄弟反对我们的表兄;
01:22
me and my brother and cousins
against the stranger."
而我们一起反对陌生人。"
01:24
And that tribalism allowed us
to create large societies
部落主义使我们自身的
社会逐渐强大,
01:26
and to come together
in order to compete with others.
大家一起便可与其他部落抗衡。
01:31
That brought us out of the jungle
and out of small groups,
这使我们走出丛林
逐渐壮大,
01:34
but it means that we have
eternal conflict.
但也意味着固有的矛盾性。
01:38
The question you have to look at is:
你需要关注的问题是:
01:40
What aspects of our society
are making that more bitter,
我们的社会
在哪些方面使之恶化,
01:42
and what are calming them down?
又在哪些方面平息了这种矛盾?
01:44
CA: That's a very dark proverb.
CA: 这谚语听上去挺沉重。
01:46
You're saying that that's actually
baked into most people's mental wiring
你是说在一定程度上,
01:47
at some level?
这种观念对大多数人来说
是根深蒂固的?
01:52
JH: Oh, absolutely. This is just
a basic aspect of human social cognition.
JH:哦,绝对的
这是人类社会认知的基本方面,
01:53
But we can also live together
really peacefully,
但我们也可以和平共处。
01:57
and we've invented all kinds
of fun ways of, like, playing war.
而且我们还发明了各种
的有趣的活动,例如模拟打仗。
01:59
I mean, sports, politics --
我是说体育,政治——
02:02
these are all ways that we get
to exercise this tribal nature
这些活动都是在不伤及他人的情况下,
02:04
without actually hurting anyone.
体现这种部落性质。
02:08
We're also really good at trade
and exploration and meeting new people.
我们也非常擅长贸易,
探险和认识新朋友。
02:09
So you have to see our tribalism
as something that goes up or down --
所以必须把部落主义
看作是有毁誉参半的——
02:14
it's not like we're doomed
to always be fighting each other,
我们并不是注定就是相互争斗。
02:17
but we'll never have world peace.
但永远没有世界和平。
02:20
CA: The size of that tribe
can shrink or expand.
CA:部落的大小可以缩小
也可以增大。
02:22
JH: Right.
JH: 对的。
02:26
CA: The size of what we consider "us"
CA:我们认为“我们”的大小,
02:27
and what we consider "other" or "them"
以及我们认为的“其他”或“他们”,
02:29
can change.
都是可以变化的。
02:31
And some people believed that process
could continue indefinitely.
有些人认为这个过程
可以无限期地继续。
02:34
JH: That's right.
JH: 是的。
02:40
CA: And we were indeed expanding
the sense of tribe for a while.
CA:我们对部落的认同确实在扩张。
02:41
JH: So this is, I think,
JH:所以我认为,
02:44
where we're getting at what's possibly
the new left-right distinction.
这可能就是
新的左右派别分歧出现的地方。
02:45
I mean, the left-right
as we've all inherited it,
我的意思是
我们所了解的左右派,
02:49
comes out of the labor
versus capital distinction,
来自劳动力与资本的差异
02:51
and the working class, and Marx.
和工人阶级,马克思。
02:54
But I think what we're seeing
now, increasingly,
但现在
我们所看到越来越多的是
02:56
is a divide in all the Western democracies
西方民主国家内部的分歧。
02:59
between the people
who want to stop at nation,
一些人主张本国内
03:01
the people who are more parochial --
狭隘的民族主义,
03:05
and I don't mean that in a bad way --
我没有贬低之意,
03:07
people who have much more
of a sense of being rooted,
他们关心自己的城镇,
03:09
they care about their town,
their community and their nation.
社区和国家的盛衰。
立足于本位主义。
03:12
And then those who are
anti-parochial and who --
而另外一些人是则是
反狭隘主义的。
03:15
whenever I get confused, I just think
of the John Lennon song "Imagine."
每当我对此困惑时
就会想起约翰·列侬的“想象”:
03:19
"Imagine there's no countries,
nothing to kill or die for."
“想象一个没有国界的地方,
没有杀戮或战争“。
03:23
And so these are the people
who want more global governance,
这些人想要更多的治理全球,
03:26
they don't like nation states,
they don't like borders.
他们不喜欢民族化的国家
他们不喜欢边界,
03:29
You see this all over Europe as well.
这在欧洲也极其普遍。
03:32
There's a great metaphor guy --
actually, his name is Shakespeare --
有个家伙做了形象的比喻
实际上,他的名字叫莎士比亚——
03:33
writing ten years ago in Britain.
是十年前在英国时写的,
03:37
He had a metaphor:
他的比喻是这样的:
03:38
"Are we drawbridge-uppers
or drawbridge-downers?"
“我们是闭关锁国好呢
还是‘大开闸门’好呢?”
03:39
And Britain is divided
52-48 on that point.
英国对此以52-48的比例分裂,
03:43
And America is divided on that point, too.
在这一点上美国也分歧很大。
03:46
CA: And so, those of us
who grew up with The Beatles
CA:我们这些与披头士一同长大,
03:49
and that sort of hippie philosophy
of dreaming of a more connected world --
追随世界大同的嬉皮哲学的人们,
03:52
it felt so idealistic and "how could
anyone think badly about that?"
惊讶:如此的理想主义“怎么可能
有人认为它不好?“
03:56
And what you're saying is that, actually,
你现在所说的,实际上是:
04:00
millions of people today
feel that that isn't just silly;
成千上万的人们不仅觉得它愚蠢,
04:02
it's actually dangerous and wrong,
and they're scared of it.
更是危险和错误的,
他们对此恐惧。
04:07
JH: I think the big issue, especially
in Europe but also here,
JH:我认为关键问题
特别是在欧洲,
04:09
is the issue of immigration.
但就算这里也如此:
就是移民问题。
04:13
And I think this is where
we have to look very carefully
我认为我们必须
从社会学的角度来
04:14
at the social science
about diversity and immigration.
审视多样性和移民问题。
04:17
Once something becomes politicized,
一旦事物被政治化,
04:21
once it becomes something
that the left loves and the right --
一旦它成为左派的挚爱
右派的天敌,
04:22
then even the social scientists
can't think straight about it.
那么甚至社会学家都不得其解。
04:25
Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.
现在,多样性在很多方面是好的,
04:29
It clearly creates more innovation.
它明显开创了许多先河。
04:31
The American economy
has grown enormously from it.
美国经济的迅速增长
大大得益于此。
04:33
Diversity and immigration
do a lot of good things.
多样性和移民贡献了很多好的东西。
04:35
But what the globalists,
I think, don't see,
但是全球主义者没有看到,
04:38
what they don't want to see,
或是不想看到的是:
04:40
is that ethnic diversity
cuts social capital and trust.
种族多样性
削减了社会资本和彼此的信任。
04:42
There's a very important
study by Robert Putnam,
“独自玩保龄”的作者
罗伯特普特南
04:48
the author of "Bowling Alone,"
有一个非常重要的
04:51
looking at social capital databases.
有关社会资本数据库的研究:
04:52
And basically, the more people
feel that they are the same,
基本上
人们越觉得彼此类似,
04:54
the more they trust each other,
就越会彼此信任,
04:57
the more they can have
a redistributionist welfare state.
他们就越有可能
重新分配国家的福利。
04:59
Scandinavian countries are so wonderful
斯堪的纳维亚国家之所以好,
05:02
because they have this legacy
of being small, homogenous countries.
就是因为他们有保持小国同质的传统,
05:04
And that leads to
a progressive welfare state,
从而形成了高质的福利国家。
05:07
a set of progressive
left-leaning values, which says,
一些左倾价值思潮践行
05:11
"Drawbridge down!
The world is a great place.
“国门打开!
世界本是美好的
05:14
People in Syria are suffering --
we must welcome them in."
叙利亚人民正在受苦,
我们必须欢迎他们。“
05:17
And it's a beautiful thing.
这本是一件美丽的事情。
05:20
But if, and I was in Sweden
this summer,
但如果
今年夏天我是在瑞典,
05:21
if the discourse in Sweden
is fairly politically correct
所用话题都必须
在政治上保持其正确性,
05:24
and they can't talk about the downsides,
不能谈论它的任何缺陷。
05:27
you end up bringing a lot of people in.
引进大量人口,
05:30
That's going to cut social capital,
那将削减社会资本,
05:32
it makes it hard to have a welfare state
这将很难保持原有的社会福利。
05:33
and they might end up,
as we have in America,
最后就像我们美国一样:
05:35
with a racially divided, visibly
racially divided, society.
成为种族分裂
且是明显的种族分裂的社会。
05:38
So this is all very
uncomfortable to talk about.
这一切都非常难以启齿,
05:41
But I think this is the thing,
especially in Europe and for us, too,
但我认为这些,
特别是在欧洲和我们,
05:44
we need to be looking at.
都必须直视的。
05:47
CA: You're saying that people of reason,
CA:你是说有理性的人,
05:48
people who would consider
themselves not racists,
他们不认为自己是种族主义者,
05:50
but moral, upstanding people,
但从道义上讲,
05:53
have a rationale that says
humans are just too different;
直率的人有理由说
人类只是太不同了。
05:55
that we're in danger of overloading
our sense of what humans are capable of,
融合极其不同的人种
05:58
by mixing in people who are too different.
实际上超出了我们的能力
从而变得岌岌可危。
06:03
JH: Yes, but I can make it
much more palatable
JH:是的,但我可以换种说法
可能更容易接受。
06:06
by saying it's not necessarily about race.
这不一定是种族的区别,
06:09
It's about culture.
而是文化的不同。
06:12
There's wonderful work by a political
scientist named Karen Stenner,
有一个叫凯伦·斯登纳的政治学者
做了一项精彩的研究:
06:14
who shows that when people have a sense
它显示出:
当人们认为彼此团结时
06:18
that we are all united,
we're all the same,
大家都是一样的,
06:21
there are many people who have
a predisposition to authoritarianism.
其中有很多人都有
独裁主义的倾向。
06:23
Those people aren't particularly racist
当他们觉得
06:27
when they feel as through
there's not a threat
社会和道德秩序没有受到威胁时,
06:29
to our social and moral order.
这部分人并不是特别的种族主义者,
06:31
But if you prime them experimentally
但是在实验中如果告诉他们
人们来自不同的地方
06:33
by thinking we're coming apart,
people are getting more different,
那么他们就会变得有所区分。
06:35
then they get more racist, homophobic,
they want to kick out the deviants.
出现更多的种族主义者,憎恨同性恋者
他们便想驱逐异教徒,
06:38
So it's in part that you get
an authoritarian reaction.
这就是产生专制的部分原因。
06:41
The left, following through
the Lennonist line --
那些追随列宁主义,
06:44
the John Lennon line --
约翰·列侬的左派,
06:47
does things that create
an authoritarian reaction.
他们的意识形态创造了专制反应。
06:48
We're certainly seeing that
in America with the alt-right.
当然我们在美国的极其右派中
也看到了同样的情形。
06:50
We saw it in Britain,
we've seen it all over Europe.
在英国,我们见到它
同样地,整个欧洲也在盛行。
06:53
But the more positive part of that
但其积极的一部分在于
我认为,
06:56
is that I think the localists,
or the nationalists, are actually right --
主张本地化或民族主义者
实际上是正确的:
06:58
that, if you emphasize
our cultural similarity,
如果你强调文化的相似性,
07:03
then race doesn't actually
matter very much.
种族实际上并不那么重要。
07:07
So an assimilationist
approach to immigration
所以移民同化措施
07:09
removes a lot of these problems.
会消除很多这些问题。
07:12
And if you value having
a generous welfare state,
如果你想要
一个慷慨的福利国家,
07:13
you've got to emphasize
that we're all the same.
你必须强调大家都一样。
07:16
CA: OK, so rising immigration
and fears about that
CA:好吧,移民和对此的担忧
越来越多
07:18
are one of the causes
of the current divide.
是当前分裂的原因之一,
07:21
What are other causes?
另外 还有什么其他原因呢?
07:25
JH: The next principle of moral psychology
JH:道德心理学的另一个原则是:
07:26
is that intuitions come first,
strategic reasoning second.
直觉占先,合理的推论排在第二。
07:28
You've probably heard
the term "motivated reasoning"
你可能听说过术语“动机推理”
07:32
or "confirmation bias."
或“确认偏差”。
07:35
There's some really interesting work
关于我们的高智商和言语能力
07:36
on how our high intelligence
and our verbal abilities
有一些很有趣的研究结果:
07:38
might have evolved
not to help us find out the truth,
随着进化
它们不再是帮助我们找出真相的工具,
07:41
but to help us manipulate each other,
defend our reputation ...
而是帮助我们互相操纵,
保护我们的声誉...
07:45
We're really, really good
at justifying ourselves.
我们极其善于强词夺理
07:48
And when you bring
group interests into account,
当开始考虑集团利益时
07:51
so it's not just me,
it's my team versus your team,
不再只是我,
而是我的团队抗衡你的团队
07:53
whereas if you're evaluating evidence
that your side is wrong,
尽管有证据证明你是错的,
07:56
we just can't accept that.
我们也不能接受,
07:59
So this is why you can't win
a political argument.
这就是为什么你赢不了政治辩论。
08:01
If you're debating something,
如果你在辩论一个话题
08:03
you can't persuade the person
with reasons and evidence,
你不能用理由和证据说服对方,
08:05
because that's not
the way reasoning works.
因为这对推理不起作用。
08:08
So now, give us the internet,
give us Google:
所以现在,给我们互联网
给我们Google
08:10
"I heard that Barack Obama
was born in Kenya.
“我听说了奥巴马出生在肯尼亚
08:14
Let me Google that -- oh my God!
10 million hits! Look, he was!"
让我Google 一下 - 我的上帝!
1000万次点击! 看,真的是呀!“
08:17
CA: So this has come as an unpleasant
surprise to a lot of people.
CA:所以这个不怎么样的现实
震惊了很多人。
08:21
Social media has often been framed
by techno-optimists
社交媒体经常被高科技乐观者,
08:24
as this great connecting force
that would bring people together.
模式化成使人们相互连接的伟大动力。
08:27
And there have been some
unexpected counter-effects to that.
但实际上
它也制造了意想不到的反作用力。
08:32
JH: That's right.
JH:没错,
08:36
That's why I'm very enamored
of yin-yang views
这就是为什么我很沉迷于
08:38
of human nature and left-right --
对人性的阴阳观点和左右派别——
08:40
that each side is right
about certain things,
每一方对某些问题都是一定的正确性,
08:42
but then it goes blind to other things.
但对另一面又有盲目性。
08:44
And so the left generally believes
that human nature is good:
所以左派一般都相信人性是好的,
08:46
bring people together, knock down
the walls and all will be well.
清除障碍,让人们聚在一起
一切都会变得美好。
08:49
The right -- social conservatives,
not libertarians --
右派——社会保守主义者
不是自由主义者——
08:52
social conservatives generally
believe people can be greedy
社会保守主义者一般认为,
08:55
and sexual and selfish,
人们贪婪,性别歧视和自私,
08:59
and we need regulation,
and we need restrictions.
我们需要监管和限制。
09:01
So, yeah, if you knock down all the walls,
如果拆除障碍
09:04
allow people to communicate
all over the world,
允许世界各地的人们随意沟通,
09:06
you get a lot of porn and a lot of racism.
色情的东西便会泛滥
出现很多种族主义者。
09:08
CA: So help us understand.
CA:那么帮助我们理解一下,
09:10
These principles of human nature
have been with us forever.
这些人性的本质
与生俱来,挥之不去,
09:12
What's changed that's deepened
this feeling of division?
那么是什么加深了
这种分裂的感觉呢?
09:18
JH: You have to see six to ten
different threads all coming together.
JH:你会遇到六到十个
不同的原因交织在一起,
09:24
I'll just list a couple of them.
我在这里只列举几个原因:
09:29
So in America, one of the big --
actually, America and Europe --
在美国,
实际上包括美国和欧洲
09:31
one of the biggest ones is World War II.
最关键的是第二次世界大战。
09:35
There's interesting research
from Joe Henrich and others
Joe Henrich和其他一些人的有趣研究发现,
09:37
that says if your country was at war,
如果你的国家沦陷战争,
09:40
especially when you were young,
特别是在你小的时候,
09:42
then we test you 30 years later
in a commons dilemma
30年后在一般的困境
09:44
or a prisoner's dilemma,
或牢狱中再测试你,
09:47
you're more cooperative.
你更善于合作。
09:49
Because of our tribal nature, if you're --
因为我们的部落性质——
09:50
my parents were teenagers
during World War II,
我父母的青少年时期正值
第二次世界大战期间,
09:53
and they would go out
looking for scraps of aluminum
他们会出去寻找铝屑
09:56
to help the war effort.
来支持战争,
09:59
I mean, everybody pulled together.
我的意思是,大家团结一致。
10:00
And so then these people go on,
然后这些人成长,
10:02
they rise up through business
and government,
他们通过生意或在政府部门任职
渐入佳境
10:04
they take leadership positions.
从而担任领导职位,
10:06
They're really good
at compromise and cooperation.
他们真的很擅长
妥协和合作,
10:08
They all retire by the '90s.
他们都在90年代退休了。
10:11
So we're left with baby boomers
by the end of the '90s.
到90年代末
我们只剩下婴儿潮一代——
10:13
And their youth was spent fighting
each other within each country,
1968年以后。
10:17
in 1968 and afterwards.
他们的青春奋斗只发生在
每个国家的内部,
10:21
The loss of the World War II generation,
"The Greatest Generation,"
失去二战这“最伟大的一代”
10:22
is huge.
损失巨大,
10:26
So that's one.
这是原因之一。
10:28
Another, in America,
is the purification of the two parties.
在美国另外一个原因是两党的净化,
10:30
There used to be liberal Republicans
and conservative Democrats.
曾经我们是自由共和党
和保守民主党。
10:33
So America had a mid-20th century
that was really bipartisan.
在20世纪中叶
美国是真正的两党制,
10:37
But because of a variety of factors
that started things moving,
但是由于各种因素
情况开始变化,
10:40
by the 90's, we had a purified
liberal party and conservative party.
到了90年代,我们有了净化后的
自由党和保守党。
10:44
So now, the people in either party
really are different,
现在,两个党派中的成员截然不同,
10:48
and we really don't want
our children to marry them,
我们开始反对彼此的子女联姻。
10:50
which, in the '60s,
didn't matter very much.
但在60年代,这没有什么关系。
10:53
So, the purification of the parties.
这便党派净化的原因。
10:55
Third is the internet and, as I said,
第三个便是互联网,如上所述,
10:57
it's just the most amazing stimulant
for post-hoc reasoning and demonization.
这是事后颠倒黑白魔鬼般
最具刺激性的推动力。
10:59
CA: The tone of what's happening
on the internet now is quite troubling.
CA:现在互联网上的某些评论相当恶劣,
11:04
I just did a quick search
on Twitter about the election
我只是在Twitter上
做了一下有关选举的快速搜索,
11:09
and saw two tweets next to each other.
看到两个彼此相邻的tweets,
11:12
One, against a picture of racist graffiti:
一个是针对一张种族主义涂鸦的图片:
11:15
"This is disgusting!
“这真是太恶心了!
11:20
Ugliness in this country,
brought to us by #Trump."
在这个国家
Trump带给我们丑陋之物。”
11:21
And then the next one is:
下一个是:
11:25
"Crooked Hillary
dedication page. Disgusting!"
“ 骗子希拉里奉献的页面, 恶心!“
11:27
So this idea of "disgust"
is troubling to me.
这种“厌恶”的想法困扰着我,
11:31
Because you can have an argument
or a disagreement about something,
因为你可以争论一件事
或对某事有分歧,
11:35
you can get angry at someone.
你可以生某人的气。
11:38
Disgust, I've heard you say,
takes things to a much deeper level.
厌恶,我听说你说过
使事情深层化。
11:41
JH: That's right. Disgust is different.
JH:没错 厌恶是不同的,
11:44
Anger -- you know, I have kids.
生气——你知道 我有孩子。
11:46
They fight 10 times a day,
他们每天打10次架
11:48
and they love each other 30 times a day.
但每天互相示爱30次。
11:50
You just go back and forth:
you get angry, you're not angry;
你只是来回反复:
你生气,你不生气,
11:52
you're angry, you're not angry.
你生气,你不生气……
11:55
But disgust is different.
但厌恶是不同的,
11:56
Disgust paints the person
as subhuman, monstrous,
厌恶形容此人是
亚人类,怪异,
11:58
deformed, morally deformed.
变态,道德败坏。
12:02
Disgust is like indelible ink.
厌恶就像不褪色的墨水。
12:04
There's research from John Gottman
on marital therapy.
在约翰·高特曼婚姻治疗的研究中显示:
12:07
If you look at the faces -- if one
of the couple shows disgust or contempt,
观察夫妇的脸,如果其中一个人的脸
表现出厌恶或蔑视,
12:11
that's a predictor that they're going
to get divorced soon,
这将预示他们很快就要离婚了。
12:16
whereas if they show anger,
that doesn't predict anything,
相反,如果他们表现出愤怒
这不预示任何东西。
12:19
because if you deal with anger well,
it actually is good.
因为如果你能处理好愤怒
它实际上是好兆头。
12:22
So this election is different.
所以这次选举截然不同,
12:25
Donald Trump personally
uses the word "disgust" a lot.
唐纳德·特朗普口口声声
使用了许多“厌恶”,
12:26
He's very germ-sensitive,
so disgust does matter a lot --
他对细菌非常敏感
所以厌恶很重要——
12:30
more for him, that's something
unique to him --
更多为他,这是他的独到之处。
12:33
but as we demonize each other more,
但是当我们多次相互丑化,
12:37
and again, through
the Manichaean worldview,
仅是通过非此即彼的二元观点看问题,
12:40
the idea that the world
is a battle between good and evil
世界将在善与恶之间斗争
12:43
as this has been ramping up,
从而矛盾愈演愈烈。
12:46
we're more likely not just to say
they're wrong or I don't like them,
更多时候 我们可能不只是说
他们错了或我不喜欢他们,
12:47
but we say they're evil, they're satanic,
而是说他们是邪恶的,是撒旦,
12:51
they're disgusting, they're revolting.
他们很恶心,令人作呕。
12:53
And then we want nothing to do with them.
而后,我们拒绝与他们来往。
12:55
And that's why I think we're seeing it,
for example, on campus now.
这就是为什么我们会遇到这些冲突。
例如,在校园里,
12:58
We're seeing more the urge
to keep people off campus,
我们看到更多的紧急措施
让人们离校。
13:02
silence them, keep them away.
保持沉默,让他们远离,
13:04
I'm afraid that this whole
generation of young people,
恐怕整个这代年轻人,
13:06
if their introduction to politics
involves a lot of disgust,
如果在他们刚刚涉及政治时
就出现这么多的厌恶,
13:09
they're not going to want to be involved
in politics as they get older.
那么在他们成熟后
恐怕不会想参与政治。
13:13
CA: So how do we deal with that?
CA:那么我们如何解决厌恶
13:17
Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?
如何消除厌恶呢?
13:19
JH: You can't do it with reasons.
JH:好像不能以理服人,
13:24
I think ...
我认为...
13:27
I studied disgust for many years,
and I think about emotions a lot.
我研究厌恶多年
我想它与情绪密切相关。
13:30
And I think that the opposite
of disgust is actually love.
我认为与厌恶相对的实际上就是爱,
13:33
Love is all about, like ...
爱就是所有,像...
13:37
Disgust is closing off, borders.
厌恶是关闭,有边界。
13:41
Love is about dissolving walls.
爱是关于消除障碍,
13:43
So personal relationships, I think,
我认为,个人关系
可能是我们具有的
13:47
are probably the most
powerful means we have.
最强大的武器。
13:49
You can be disgusted by a group of people,
你可以被一群人厌恶,
13:53
but then you meet a particular person
随后,你遇到某一特定的人,
13:56
and you genuinely discover
that they're lovely.
然后你真正地发现
他们很可爱,
13:57
And then gradually that chips away
or changes your category as well.
然后逐渐把你也同化了。
14:00
The tragedy is, Americans used to be
much more mixed up in the their towns
可惜的是
美国人以前不分左右政治,
14:06
by left-right or politics.
在他们的城镇相互融合,
14:12
And now that it's become
this great moral divide,
但现在形成了这个伟大的道德鸿沟。
14:14
there's a lot of evidence
that we're moving to be near people
有很多证据表明
谁在政治上与我们一致,
14:16
who are like us politically.
我们就会像他们靠近,
14:19
It's harder to find somebody
who's on the other side.
很难找到志同道合的异党。
14:21
So they're over there, they're far away.
因此,他们虽然就在附近
但离我们很远,
14:23
It's harder to get to know them.
也很难去了解他们。
14:26
CA: What would you say to someone
or say to Americans,
CA:你会告诫某人
或美国人
14:27
people generally,
或大众
14:31
about what we should understand
about each other
我们应该如何了解对方,
14:33
that might help us rethink for a minute
从而有助于我们重新思考一下,
14:35
this "disgust" instinct?
这个“厌恶”的本能?
14:39
JH: Yes.
JH:对呀,
14:42
A really important
thing to keep in mind --
记住这点很重要——
14:43
there's research by political
scientist Alan Abramowitz,
政治学家Alan Abramowitz的研究表明,
14:45
showing that American democracy
is increasingly governed
美国的民主越来越受到
14:50
by what's called "negative partisanship."
所谓的“消极党派“的掌控。
14:54
That means you think,
OK there's a candidate,
这意味着
OK 有一个候选人,
14:56
you like the candidate,
you vote for the candidate.
你喜欢这个候选人
投票给他/她,
15:00
But with the rise of negative advertising
但随着负面消息
15:02
and social media
and all sorts of other trends,
在社交媒体
和各种其他媒体的传播,
15:04
increasingly, the way elections are done
选举就完蛋了。
15:06
is that each side tries to make
the other side so horrible, so awful,
每一方都在试图把
另一方丑化成可怕,可耻的家伙,
15:08
that you'll vote for my guy by default.
从而投票给我方成了默认方式。
15:12
And so as we more and more vote
against the other side
因此越来越多的投票
是反对另一边,
15:15
and not for our side,
而不是支持我们这边。
15:18
you have to keep in mind
that if people are on the left,
你必须记住
如果人支持左派,
15:19
they think, "Well, I used to think
that Republicans were bad,
他们认为
“嗯,我以前觉得共和党人是坏的”
15:25
but now Donald Trump proves it.
现在唐纳德·特朗普证明这点,
15:28
And now every Republican,
I can paint with all the things
那么每个共和党人,
15:29
that I think about Trump."
我都可以用我所了解特朗普的东西脸谱化。
15:32
And that's not necessarily true.
但这不一定是真的,
15:33
They're generally not very happy
with their candidate.
他们一般也不喜欢他们的候选人,
15:35
This is the most negative partisanship
election in American history.
这次选举是美国历史上最消极的党派之争。
15:38
So you have to first separate
your feelings about the candidate
所以首选你必须区分
你对候选人的感受
15:43
from your feelings about the people
who are given a choice.
和对选民的感受。
15:47
And then you have to realize that,
然后你必须意识到,
15:50
because we all live
in a separate moral world --
为我们都生活
在各自单独的道德世界中,
15:53
the metaphor I use in the book
is that we're all trapped in "The Matrix,"
在我的书中
使用的隐喻是我们都被困在“矩阵”中,
15:55
or each moral community is a matrix,
a consensual hallucination.
或每个道德群体是一个矩阵
一个自愿的幻觉世界。
15:59
And so if you're within the blue matrix,
所以如果你在民主党的阵营中,
16:02
everything's completely compelling
that the other side --
一切都引人沮丧
那一边,
16:04
they're troglodytes, they're racists,
they're the worst people in the world,
他们是老顽固,种族主义者,
是世界上最糟糕的人。
16:08
and you have all the facts
to back that up.
你有所有的事实作为佐证,
16:11
But somebody in the next house from yours
但你的邻居生活在
16:13
is living in a different moral matrix.
不同的道德矩阵中,
16:16
They live in a different video game,
他们住在不同的游戏世界里,
16:18
and they see a completely
different set of facts.
他们看到完全不同的事实。
16:20
And each one sees
different threats to the country.
各方看到的是
对这个国家不同的威胁,
16:22
And what I've found
from being in the middle
作为中间人
我试图理解双方,
16:25
and trying to understand both sides
is: both sides are right.
并发现:
双方其实都是对的。
16:27
There are a lot of threats
to this country,
现在很多问题威胁着这个国家,
16:30
and each side is constitutionally
incapable of seeing them all.
但每一方都看不到问题的实质。
16:32
CA: So, are you saying
that we almost need a new type of empathy?
CA:那么,你说的是
我们几乎需要一种新型的共情心?
16:36
Empathy is traditionally framed as:
共情传统上被描述为:
16:43
"Oh, I feel your pain.
I can put myself in your shoes."
“哦,我感觉到你的痛苦
我可以感同身受“
16:45
And we apply it to the poor,
the needy, the suffering.
我们把它用于穷人,
有需要的人,痛苦的人,
16:48
We don't usually apply it
to people who we feel as other,
我们通常不会用在
我们不关注的人,
16:52
or we're disgusted by.
或我们厌恶的人身上。
16:55
JH: No. That's right.
JH:不错,是这样的。
16:57
CA: What would it look like
to build that type of empathy?
CA:建立那种类型的共情会是什么样子呢?
16:58
JH: Actually, I think ...
JH:其实,我想...
17:04
Empathy is a very, very
hot topic in psychology,
共情是非常非常
热门的心理话题,
17:06
and it's a very popular word
on the left in particular.
特别在左派
它是一个非常受欢迎的词。
17:08
Empathy is a good thing, and empathy
for the preferred classes of victims.
共情是一件好事
同情某种类别的受害者,
17:11
So it's important to empathize
所以左派同情
17:15
with the groups that we on the left
think are so important.
他们认为该同情的对象。
17:16
That's easy to do,
because you get points for that.
那很容易
因为你目标明确,
17:19
But empathy really should get you points
if you do it when it's hard to do.
但共情真的应该触及到
很难做到的地方。
17:22
And, I think ...
而且,我想...
17:26
You know, we had a long 50-year period
of dealing with our race problems
我们有着长达50年
处理种族问题
17:28
and legal discrimination,
和法律歧视的历史,
17:33
and that was our top priority
for a long time
很长一段时间以来
它是我们的首要任务
17:35
and it still is important.
而且现在仍然很重要。
17:37
But I think this year,
但是今年
17:39
I'm hoping it will make people see
我希望人们看到
17:40
that we have an existential
threat on our hands.
我们存在一个当务之急:
17:43
Our left-right divide, I believe,
左右党派的分裂。
17:45
is by far the most important
divide we face.
我坚信这是迄今为止
我们面对的最严重的分歧,
17:48
We still have issues about race
and gender and LGBT,
种族的问题
性别和LGBT问题依然存在,
17:50
but this is the urgent need
of the next 50 years,
但这是未来50年迫切需要解决的。
17:53
and things aren't going
to get better on their own.
问题不会自行消失
17:57
So we're going to need to do
a lot of institutional reforms,
所以我们需要很多体制改革。
18:01
and we could talk about that,
我们可以对此进行谈论,
18:03
but that's like a whole long,
wonky conversation.
但那将是一个冗长的话题。
18:05
But I think it starts with people
realizing that this is a turning point.
但我认为当人们开始意识到这个问题
就是一个转折点。
18:07
And yes, we need a new kind of empathy.
是的,我们需要一种新的同理心,
18:11
We need to realize:
我们需要意识到
18:14
this is what our country needs,
这是我们国家需要的。
18:15
and this is what you need
if you don't want to --
这是你需要的
如果你不想变得更糟。
18:17
Raise your hand if you want
to spend the next four years
如果你想花四年的时间,
18:19
as angry and worried as you've been
for the last year -- raise your hand.
像去年一样生气和担心,请举手。
18:22
So if you want to escape from this,
如果你想逃离这些,
18:26
read Buddha, read Jesus,
read Marcus Aurelius.
读佛教,读耶稣
阅读Marcus Aurelius,
18:27
They have all kinds of great advice
for how to drop the fear,
他们有各种各样好的建议,
教你如何放下恐惧:
18:29
reframe things,
重塑事实,
18:35
stop seeing other people as your enemy.
化敌为友,
18:36
There's a lot of guidance in ancient
wisdom for this kind of empathy.
古代有很多智慧指导这种同理心。
18:38
CA: Here's my last question:
CA:这是我的最后一个问题:
18:41
Personally, what can
people do to help heal?
作为个人,什么可以
帮助人们愈合伤口?
18:43
JH: Yeah, it's very hard to just decide
to overcome your deepest prejudices.
JH:好的,其实真的很难
克服这种根生蒂固的偏见。
18:47
And there's research showing
有研究显示,在这个国家,
18:51
that political prejudices are deeper
and stronger than race prejudices
政治偏见更顽固于
18:53
in the country now.
种族偏见,
18:57
So I think you have to make an effort --
that's the main thing.
所以我想你必须努力
——这是关键。
18:59
Make an effort to actually meet somebody.
努力去认识一些人,
19:02
Everybody has a cousin, a brother-in-law,
每个人都有表兄弟,姐夫或妹夫,
19:04
somebody who's on the other side.
肯定有人在另一方。
19:07
So, after this election --
在这次选举后
19:09
wait a week or two,
等上一两个星期,
19:11
because it's probably going to feel
awful for one of you --
因为其中一方可能会感到尴尬。
19:12
but wait a couple weeks, and then
reach out and say you want to talk.
但等几个星期后,接触他
说你想说的话。
19:15
And before you do it,
在你做这之前,
19:19
read Dale Carnegie, "How to Win
Friends and Influence People" --
读一下戴尔卡内基的
《如何赢得朋友和影响他人》
19:21
(Laughter)
(笑声)
19:24
I'm totally serious.
我是认真的。
19:25
You'll learn techniques
if you start by acknowledging,
你会学到技巧,
如果你开始承认,
19:26
if you start by saying,
如果你开始说,
19:29
"You know, we don't agree on a lot,
“你知道我们有很多不同观点
19:30
but one thing I really respect
about you, Uncle Bob,"
但鲍勃叔叔,有一点我真的很尊重您“
19:32
or "... about you conservatives, is ... "
或“...关于你们保守派,是...”
19:34
And you can find something.
你可以找到一些有用的东西,
19:36
If you start with some
appreciation, it's like magic.
如果一开始你就表达一些赏识
那将好似魔力,
19:38
This is one of the main
things I've learned
这是我学到的关键东西。
19:40
that I take into my human relationships.
我考虑到人际关系,
19:42
I still make lots of stupid mistakes,
我还是经常犯愚蠢的错误,
19:44
but I'm incredibly good
at apologizing now,
但我现在学会了道歉,
19:46
and at acknowledging what
somebody was right about.
并承认别人是对的。
19:48
And if you do that,
如果你能这样做,
19:51
then the conversation goes really well,
and it's actually really fun.
谈话就会进行得很好
而且真得会很有趣。
19:52
CA: Jon, it's absolutely fascinating
speaking with you.
CA:Jon,与你谈天绝对令人振奋,
19:56
It's really does feel like
the ground that we're on
真正感到我们所处的环境,
19:59
is a ground populated by deep questions
of morality and human nature.
是一个充满了道德和人性深层问题的地方。
20:03
Your wisdom couldn't be more relevant.
你的智慧切中要害,
20:08
Thank you so much for sharing
this time with us.
非常感谢和我们一同分享这个话题。
20:10
JH: Thanks, Chris.
JH: 谢谢Chris
20:13
JH: Thanks, everyone.
JH:谢谢大家
20:14
(Applause)
(掌声)
20:15
Translated by Jing Peng
Reviewed by Hime IX

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About the speakers:

Jonathan Haidt - Social psychologist
Jonathan Haidt studies how -- and why -- we evolved to be moral. By understanding more about our moral roots, his hope is that we can learn to be civil and open-minded.

Why you should listen

Haidt is a social psychologist whose research on morality across cultures led up to his much-quoted 2008 TEDTalk on the psychological roots of the American culture war. He asks, "Can't we all disagree more constructively?" In September 2009, Jonathan Haidt spoke to the TED Blog about the moral psychology behind the healthcare debate in the United States. He's also active in the study of positive psychology and human flourishing.

At TED2012 he explored the intersection of his work on morality with his work on happiness to talk about “hive psychology” – the ability that humans have to lose themselves in groups pursuing larger projects, almost like bees in a hive. This hivish ability Is crucial, he argues, for understanding the origins of morality, politics, and religion. These are ideas that Haidt develops at greater length in his new book, The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion. Learn more about his drive for a more productive and civil politics on his website CivilPolitics.org. And take an eye-opening quiz about your own morals at YourMorals.org

During the bruising 2012 political season, Haidt was invited to speak at TEDxMidAtlantic on the topic of civility. He developed the metaphor of The Asteroids Club to embody how we can reach. common groun. Learn how to start your own Asteroids Club at www.AsteroidsClub.org.

Watch Haidt talk about the Asteroids Club on MSNBC's The Cycle >>

More profile about the speaker
Jonathan Haidt | Speaker | TED.com
Chris Anderson - TED Curator
After a long career in journalism and publishing, Chris Anderson became the curator of the TED Conference in 2002 and has developed it as a platform for identifying and disseminating ideas worth spreading.

Why you should listen

Chris Anderson is the Curator of TED, a nonprofit devoted to sharing valuable ideas, primarily through the medium of 'TED Talks' -- short talks that are offered free online to a global audience.

Chris was born in a remote village in Pakistan in 1957. He spent his early years in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, where his parents worked as medical missionaries, and he attended an American school in the Himalayas for his early education. After boarding school in Bath, England, he went on to Oxford University, graduating in 1978 with a degree in philosophy, politics and economics.

Chris then trained as a journalist, working in newspapers and radio, including two years producing a world news service in the Seychelles Islands.

Back in the UK in 1984, Chris was captivated by the personal computer revolution and became an editor at one of the UK's early computer magazines. A year later he founded Future Publishing with a $25,000 bank loan. The new company initially focused on specialist computer publications but eventually expanded into other areas such as cycling, music, video games, technology and design, doubling in size every year for seven years. In 1994, Chris moved to the United States where he built Imagine Media, publisher of Business 2.0 magazine and creator of the popular video game users website IGN. Chris eventually merged Imagine and Future, taking the combined entity public in London in 1999, under the Future name. At its peak, it published 150 magazines and websites and employed 2,000 people.

This success allowed Chris to create a private nonprofit organization, the Sapling Foundation, with the hope of finding new ways to tackle tough global issues through media, technology, entrepreneurship and, most of all, ideas. In 2001, the foundation acquired the TED Conference, then an annual meeting of luminaries in the fields of Technology, Entertainment and Design held in Monterey, California, and Chris left Future to work full time on TED.

He expanded the conference's remit to cover all topics, including science, business and key global issues, while adding a Fellows program, which now has some 300 alumni, and the TED Prize, which grants its recipients "one wish to change the world." The TED stage has become a place for thinkers and doers from all fields to share their ideas and their work, capturing imaginations, sparking conversation and encouraging discovery along the way.

In 2006, TED experimented with posting some of its talks on the Internet. Their viral success encouraged Chris to begin positioning the organization as a global media initiative devoted to 'ideas worth spreading,' part of a new era of information dissemination using the power of online video. In June 2015, the organization posted its 2,000th talk online. The talks are free to view, and they have been translated into more than 100 languages with the help of volunteers from around the world. Viewership has grown to approximately one billion views per year.

Continuing a strategy of 'radical openness,' in 2009 Chris introduced the TEDx initiative, allowing free licenses to local organizers who wished to organize their own TED-like events. More than 8,000 such events have been held, generating an archive of 60,000 TEDx talks. And three years later, the TED-Ed program was launched, offering free educational videos and tools to students and teachers.

More profile about the speaker
Chris Anderson | Speaker | TED.com