TED2008
Joshua Klein: A thought experiment on the intelligence of crows
Jošua Klajn o inteligenciji vrana
Filmed:
Readability: 3.2
2,645,444 views
Haker i pisac Jošua Klajn fasciniran je vranama (da li ste ikada primetili bljesak inteligencije u njihovim malim crnim očim?). Nakon dugog, amaterskog proučavanja ponašanja vrana, osmislio je elegantan mali aparat koji će možda stvoriti novu vezu između životinja i ljudi.
Joshua Klein - Hacker
Joshua Klein is a fervent hacker of all things, including wet, pulpy systems like animals and people and the way they behave. Full bio
Joshua Klein is a fervent hacker of all things, including wet, pulpy systems like animals and people and the way they behave. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:18
How many of you have seen the Alfred Hitchcock film "The Birds"?
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Koliko vas je gledalo "Ptice" Alfreda Hičkoka?
00:21
Any of you get really freaked out by that?
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Da li se neko ozbiljno uplašio?
00:24
You might want to leave now.
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Bolje onda da izađete.
00:26
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
00:27
So, this is a vending machine for crows.
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Ovo je automat za vrane.
00:29
And over the past few days, many of you have been asking me,
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Ovih dana me mnogi pitaju:
00:31
"How did you come to this? How did you get started doing this?"
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"Kako si došao na ideju? Kako si počeo?"
00:34
And it started, as with many great ideas,
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Počelo je kao i druge velike ideje,
00:36
or many ideas you can't get rid of anyway,
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ili ideje koje te proganjaju
00:38
at a cocktail party.
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na koktel zabavi.
00:39
About 10 years ago, I was at a cocktail party with a friend of mine,
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Pre 10 godina sam bio na zabavi sa prijateljem.
00:42
and we're sitting there, and he was complaining about the crows
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Počeo je da se žali kako mu vrane
00:44
that he had seen that were all over his yard and making a big mess.
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dolaze u dvorište i prave nered.
00:48
And he was telling me that really, we ought to try and eradicate these things.
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Zapravo je govorio da ih treba istrebiti.
00:50
We gotta kill them because they're making a mess.
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Moramo da ih ubijemo jer prave nered.
00:52
I said that was stupid,
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Rekao sam da je to glupo.
00:53
you know, maybe we should just train them to do something useful.
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Treba ih naučiti da rade nešto korisno.
00:55
And he said that was impossible.
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Rekao je da je to nemoguće.
00:58
And I'm sure I'm in good company in finding that tremendously annoying
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Ovde nas ima dosta koje nervira
01:01
-- when someone tells you it's impossible.
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kad im neko kaže da je nešto nemoguće.
01:02
So, I spent the next 10 years reading about crows in my spare time.
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Tako sam proveo poslednjih 10 godina čitajući o vranama u slobodno vreme.
01:06
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
01:09
And after 10 years of this, my wife eventually said,
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Nakon 10 godina, žena mi je rekla:
01:11
"Look, you know, you gotta do this thing
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"Moraš da uradiš
01:13
you've been talking about, and build the vending machine."
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ovo o čemu si pričao i napraviš automat."
01:15
So I did.
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To sam i uradio.
01:16
But part of the reason that I found this interesting
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Delom mi je bilo zanimljivo
01:18
is that I started noticing that we are
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jer sam primetio
01:20
very aware of all the species that are going
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da smo svesni svih vrsta
01:22
extinct on the planet as a result of human habitation expansion,
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koje će izumreti zbog širenja ljudi,
01:24
and no one seems to be paying attention
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a niko ne obraća pažnju
01:27
to all the species that are actually living -- that are surviving.
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na vrste koje su žive, koje preživljavaju.
01:30
And I'm talking specifically about synanthropic species,
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Govorim o sinatropskim vrstama,
01:33
which are species that have adapted specifically for human ecologies,
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koje su prilagođene baš na ljudsku ekologiju,
01:36
species like rats and cockroaches and crows.
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poput pacova, bubašvaba i vrana.
01:40
And as I started looking at them, I was finding that they had hyper-adapted.
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Posmatrao sam ih i video da su izuzetno prilagodljive.
01:43
They'd become extremely adept at living with us.
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Izuzetno adaptirane na život sa nama.
01:46
And in return, we just tried to kill them all the time.
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Zauzvrat, mi pokušavamo da ih istrebimo.
01:50
And in doing so, we were breeding them for parasitism.
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Radeći to, pretvaramo ih u parazite.
01:52
We were giving them all sorts of reasons to adapt new ways.
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Davali smo im razne razloge da razviju nove navike.
01:56
So, for example, rats are incredibly responsive breeders.
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Na primer, pacovi se brzo razmnožavaju.
01:59
And cockroaches, as anyone who's tried to get rid of them knows,
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Bubašvabe su postale imune na naše otrove,
02:02
have become really immune to the poisons that we're using.
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što zna svako ko je pokušao da ih se otarasi.
02:05
So, I thought, let's build something that's mutually beneficial.
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Pomislih da napravimo nešto od uzajamne koristi.
02:08
Well, then let's build something that we can both benefit from,
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Nešto što će nam oboma koristiti,
02:10
and find some way to make a new relationship with these species.
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i razvijemo nove odnose sa ovom vrstom,
02:13
And so I built the vending machine.
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pa sam napravio automat.
02:16
But the story of the vending machine is a little more interesting
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Priča o automatu je zanimljivija
02:18
if you know more about crows.
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ako znate više o vranama.
02:20
It turns out that crows aren't just surviving with human beings --
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One ne samo da preživaljavaju među ljudima,
02:22
they're actually really thriving.
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već vrlo uspešno to rade.
02:24
They're found everywhere on the planet except for the Arctic
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Ima ih svuda osim na Severnom polu
02:26
and the southern tip of South America.
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i krajnjem jugu Južne Amerike.
02:28
And in all that area, they're only rarely found
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I u svim tim regijama se retko kad
02:31
breeding more than five kilometers away from human beings.
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razmožavaju dalje od 5 km od ljudi.
02:33
So we may not think about them,
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Možda ne razmišljamo o njima,
02:35
but they're always around.
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ali su uvek tu.
02:37
And not surprisingly, given the human population growth,
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Sa porastom broja ljudi,
02:39
more than half of the human population is living in cities now.
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više od polovine sada živi u gradovima.
02:42
And out of those, nine-tenths
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Od ovoga, 9/10 populacije
02:44
of the human growth population is occurring in cities.
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u porastu, živi u gradovima,
02:46
We're seeing a population boom with crows.
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pa vidimo i porast broja vrana.
02:49
So bird counts are indicating that we might be seeing
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Broj ptica ukazuje da ćemo možda
02:51
up to exponential growth in their numbers.
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videti njihov eksponencijalni rast.
02:53
So that's no great surprise.
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Ovo ne iznenađuje.
02:56
But what was really interesting to me was to find out that
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Meni je bilo zanimljivo da otkrijem
02:58
the birds were adapting in a pretty unusual way.
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da se ptice prilagođavaju na prilično neobičan način.
03:01
And I'll give you an example of that.
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Daću vam primer.
03:04
So this is Betty. She's a New Caledonian crow.
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Ovo je Beti, vrana iz Nove Kaledonije.
03:07
And these crows use sticks in the wild
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Oni koriste štapove u divljini
03:09
to get insects and whatnot out of pieces of wood.
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da izvade insekte i slično iz drveta.
03:12
Here, she's trying to get a piece of meat out of a tube.
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Ovde vadi komad mesa iz tube.
03:14
But the researchers had a problem.
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Naučnici su imali problem.
03:16
They messed up and left just a stick of wire in there.
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Slučajno su ostavili komad žice.
03:18
And she hadn't had the opportunity to do this before.
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Ona nikad ranije nije mogla ovo da proba.
03:21
You see, it wasn't working very well.
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Nije joj išlo najbolje,
03:24
So she adapted.
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pa se prilagodila.
03:26
Now this is completely unprompted. She had never seen this done before.
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Ovo je bilo spontano. Nikad nije videla da se ovo radi.
03:30
No one taught her to bend this into a hook,
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Niko je nije naučio da napravi kuku,
03:32
had shown her how it could happen.
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kako se to radi,
03:33
But she did it all on her own.
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ali je sama otkrila.
03:35
So keep in mind that she's never seen this done.
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Ne zaboravite, nikad nije videla kako se ovo radi.
03:39
Right.
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Ok.
03:41
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
03:48
Yeah. All right.
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Ok.
03:50
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
03:53
That's the part where the researchers freak out.
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Ovde naučnici polude.
03:56
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
03:58
So, it turns out we've been finding more and more
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Sve više otkrivamo
04:00
that crows are really, really intelligent.
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da su vrane veoma inteligentne.
04:01
Their brains are proportionate,
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Mozak im je proporcionalan
04:02
in the same proportion as chimpanzee brains are.
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mozgu šimpanzi.
04:05
There are all kinds of anecdotes for different kinds of intelligence they have.
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Ima anegdota o vrstama njihove inteligencije.
04:09
For example, in Sweden,
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Na primer, u Švedskoj,
04:11
crows will wait for fishermen to drop lines through holes in the ice.
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čekaće da ribari ubace
04:13
And when the fishermen move off,
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udicu kroz rupu u ledu. Kad ribari odu,
04:15
the crows fly down, reel up the lines, and eat the fish or the bait.
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one dolete, izvuku udicu i pojedu ribu ili mamac.
04:19
It's pretty annoying for the fishermen.
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To prilično nervira ribare.
04:22
On an entirely different tack,
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Sa druge strane,
04:23
at University of Washington, they, a few years ago,
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na Univerzitetu u Vašingtonu pre par godina
04:25
were doing an experiment where they captured some crows on campus.
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rađen je eksperiment u kome su uhvatili vrane sa kampusa.
04:28
Some students went out and netted some crows,
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Studenti su izašli i uhvatili vrane,
04:30
brought them in, and were -- weighed them, and measured them and whatnot,
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uneli unutra, merili i šta sve ne,
04:33
and then let them back out again.
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i ponovo pustili napolje.
04:34
And were entertained to discover
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Bilo im je zabavno
04:35
that for the rest of the week, these crows,
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da su te vrane, do kraja nedelje,
04:37
whenever these particular students walked around campus,
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kad bi se ti studenti pojavili,
04:39
these crows would caw at them,
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graktale na njih,
04:41
and run around and make their life kind of miserable.
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trčale okolo i zagorčavale im život.
04:44
They were significantly less entertained when this went on for the next week.
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Bilo im je manje zabavno kad se ovo nastavilo i naredne nedelje,
04:48
And the next month. And after summer break.
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i narednog meseca, i nakon letnjeg raspusta,
04:52
Until they finally graduated and left campus,
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sve dok nisu diplomirali i otišli,
04:54
and -- glad to get away, I'm sure --
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sigurno im je bilo drago,
04:56
came back sometime later, and found the crows still remembered them.
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vratili se kasnije i videli da ih vrane nisu zaboravile.
04:59
So -- the moral being, don't piss off crows.
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Pouka je da vrane ne treba razljutiti.
05:02
So now, students at the University of Washington
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Sada studenti Univerziteta u Vašingtonu
05:06
that are studying these crows
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koji proučavaju ove vrane
05:07
do so with a giant wig and a big mask.
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čine to uz perike i maske.
05:09
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
05:12
It's fairly interesting.
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Prilično interesantno.
05:14
So we know that these crows are really smart,
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Znamo da su vrane pametne,
05:16
but the more I dug into this, the more I found
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ali što ih duže istražujem, otkrivam
05:18
that they actually have an even more significant adaptation.
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da mogu još značajnije da se adaptiraju.
05:23
Video: Crows have become highly skilled at
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Video: vrane su postale vične
05:25
making a living in these new urban environments.
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životu u ovim novim urbanim sredinama.
05:29
In this Japanese city, they have devised a way of
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U ovom japanskom gradu su smislile kako
05:32
eating a food that normally they can't manage:
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da jedu hranu koju inače ne mogu:
05:37
drop it among the traffic.
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tako što je bace u saobraćaj.
05:43
The problem now is collecting the bits,
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Sada treba pokupiti delove,
05:46
without getting run over.
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a da te nešto ne pregazi.
05:48
Wait for the light to stop the traffic.
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Čekaj da svetlo zaustavi saobraćaj,
06:02
Then, collect your cracked nut in safety.
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onda bezbedno pokupi delove razbijenog oraha.
06:10
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
06:11
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
06:12
Joshua Klein: Yeah, yeah. Pretty interesting.
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Jošua Klajn: da. Vrlo interesantno.
06:14
So what's significant about this isn't that crows are using cars to crack nuts.
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Ovde nije značajno da vrane koriste kola da lome orahe,
06:17
In fact, that's old hat for crows.
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to je njihov stari trik.
06:19
This happened about 10 years ago
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Ovo se desilo pre 10 godina
06:21
in a place called Sendai City, at a driving school
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u Sendai sitiju, u školi za vožnju
06:24
in the suburbs of Tokyo.
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u predgrađu Tokija.
06:26
And since that time,
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Od tada,
06:27
all of the crows in the neighborhood are picking up this behavior.
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sve vrane iz kraja su usvojile ovo ponašanje.
06:29
And now, every crow within five kilometers is standing by a sidewalk,
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Sad sve vrane u radijusu od 5 km stoje na trotoaru
06:32
waiting to collect its lunch.
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i čekaju da pokupe ručak.
06:35
So, they're learning from each other. And research bears this out.
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One uče jedne od drugih. Istraživanja to dokazuju.
06:37
Parents seem to be teaching their young.
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Roditelji uče mladunce.
06:39
They've learned from their peers. They've learned from their enemies.
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Uče od svojih vršnjaka i neprijatelja.
06:43
If I have a little extra time, I'll tell you about a case of crow infidelity
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Da imam više vremena, ispričao bih o neverstvu vrana
06:46
that illustrates that nicely.
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koje ovo lepo ilustruje.
06:48
The point being that they've developed cultural adaptation.
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One su razvile kulturnu adaptaciju.
06:51
And as we heard yesterday,
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Kao što smo juče čuli,
06:53
that's the Pandora's box that's getting human beings in trouble,
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to je ona Pandorina kutija, koja ljudima pravi problem,
06:55
and we're starting to see it with them.
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a vidimo je i kod njih.
06:57
They're able to very quickly and very flexibly adapt
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Sposobni su da se brzo i fleksibilno adaptiraju
07:00
to new challenges and new resources in their environment,
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novim izazovima i resursima u sredini,
07:03
which is really useful if you live in a city.
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što je korisno kad živiš u gradu.
07:06
So we know that there's lots of crows.
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Znamo da ima puno vrana.
07:08
We found out they're really smart, and we found out that they can teach each other.
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Saznali smo da su pametne i da uče jedne od drugih.
07:11
And when all this became clear to me,
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Kada sam ovo shvatio,
07:13
I realized the only obvious thing to do is build a vending machine.
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jedina logična stvar je bila da napravimo automat.
07:16
So that's what we did.
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To smo i uradili.
07:17
This is a vending machine for crows.
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Ovo je automat za vrane.
07:19
And it uses Skinnerian training to shape their behavior over four stages.
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Koristi Skinerovo treniranje ponašanja u 4 faze.
07:22
It's pretty simple.
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Vrlo je jednostavan.
07:24
Basically, what happens is that we put this out in a field,
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Ukratko, postavimo automat na polje,
07:27
or someplace where there's lots of crows,
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ili negde gde ima puno vrana
07:29
and we put coins and peanuts all around the base of the machine.
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i stavimo novčiće i kikiriki oko automata.
07:31
And crows eventually come by, and eat the peanuts
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Vrane dođu i jedu kikiriki,
07:33
and get used to the machine being there.
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i naviknu se da je automat tu.
07:35
And eventually, they eat up all the peanuts.
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Na kraju pojedu sav kikiriki.
07:37
And then they see that there are peanuts here on the feeder tray,
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Tad vide da ima kikirikija i na tacni za hranjenje.
07:40
and they hop up and help themselves.
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Skoče na nju i posluže se.
07:42
And then they leave, and the machine spits up more coins and peanuts,
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Onda odu, a automat izbaci još novčića i kikirikija,
07:44
and life is really dandy, if you're a crow.
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i život je lep ako si vrana.
07:46
Then you can come back anytime and get yourself a peanut.
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Mogu uvek doći i uzeti kikiriki.
07:49
So, when they get really used to that, we move on to the crows coming back.
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Kada se naviknu, fokusiramo se na vrane koje se vraćaju.
07:52
Now, they're used to the sound of the machine, and they keep coming back,
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Sada su se navikle na zvuk automata i vraćaju se,
07:55
and digging out these peanuts from amongst the pile of coins that's there.
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i vade kikiriki iz hrpe novčića.
07:57
And when they get really happy about this,
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Kad se obraduju ovome,
07:59
we go ahead and stymie them.
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mi im otežamo stvari.
08:01
And we move to the third stage, where we only give them a coin.
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Prelazimo na treću fazu, gde im dajemo samo novčić.
08:04
Now, like most of us who have gotten used to a good thing,
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Kao većina koja se navikne na nešto dobro,
08:06
this really pisses them off.
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ovo ih iritira.
08:07
So, they do what they do in nature when they're looking for something --
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Tada počnu da rade ono što bi u prirodi kad traže nešto –
08:11
they sweep things out of the way with their beak.
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rasklanjaju stvari kljunom.
08:13
And they do that here, and that knocks the coins down the slot,
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To rade i ovde, što gurne novčić niz otvor.
08:16
and when that happens, they get a peanut.
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Kada se to desi, dobiju kikiriki.
08:18
And so this goes on for some time.
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To rade neko vreme.
08:19
The crows learn that all they have to do is show up,
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Vrane nauče da jedino treba
08:21
wait for the coin to come out, put the coin in the slot, and then they get their peanut.
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da sačekaju da novčić ispadne, stave ga u otvor, i dobiju kikiriki.
08:24
And when they're really good and comfortable with that,
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Kada se naviknu na ovo,
08:26
we move to the final stage, in which they show up and nothing happens.
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pređemo na poslednju fazu, gde se pojave i ništa se ne desi.
08:31
And this is where we see the difference between crows and other animals.
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Ovde vidimo razliku između vrana i drugih životinja.
08:33
Squirrels, for example, would show up, look for the peanut, go away.
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Veverice bi se došle, tražile kikiriki i otišle.
08:37
Come back, look for the peanut, go away.
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Vratile se, potražile kikiriki i otišle.
08:40
They do this maybe half a dozen times before they get bored,
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Ovo rade nekih 6 puta dok im ne dosadi,
08:43
and then they go off and play in traffic.
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onda odu da se igraju u saobraćaju.
08:45
Crows, on the other hand, show up, and they try and figure it out.
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Vrane, s druge strane, dođu i pokušaju da shvate.
08:49
They know that this machine's been messing with them,
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Znaju da ih automat zeza
08:51
through three different stages of behavior.
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tokom tri faze ponašanja.
08:53
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
08:54
They figure it's gotta have more to it.
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Shvate da mora imati logiku.
08:56
So, they poke at it and peck at it and whatnot.
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Guraju ga, kljucaju i slično.
08:58
And eventually some crow gets a bright idea that,
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Onda jedna dobije ideju.
09:00
"Hey, there's lots of coins lying around from the first stage,
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"Hej, tamo ima puno novčića iz prve faze
09:03
lying around on the ground," hops down, picks it up, drops it in the slot.
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koji su na zemlji". Skoči dole, pokupi ga i ubaci u otvor.
09:06
And then, we're off to the races.
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I tako počinje.
09:08
That crow enjoys a temporary monopoly on peanuts,
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Ta vrana uživa u privremenom monopolu
09:10
until his friends figure out how to do it, and then there we go.
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dok ostale ne shvate kako se to radi, a onda sve krenu.
09:15
So, what's significant about this to me
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Ono što je meni važno
09:17
isn't that we can train crows to pick up peanuts.
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nije da možemo istrenirati vrane da pokupe kikiriki.
09:19
Mind you, there's 216 million dollars' worth of change lost every year,
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Iako se svake godine izgubi 216 miliona dolara u novčićima,
09:23
but I'm not sure I can depend on that ROI from crows.
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mada sumnjam da vrane mogu vratiti taj novac.
09:27
Instead, I think we should look a little bit larger.
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Mislim da treba da gledamo širu sliku,
09:30
I think that crows can be trained to do other things.
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da mogu naučiti i druge stvari.
09:32
For example, why not train them to pick up garbage after stadium events?
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Zašto ih ne naučimo da kupe smeće nakon događaja na stadionima,
09:36
Or find expensive components from discarded electronics?
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da nađu skupe komponente u bačenoj elektronici,
09:38
Or maybe do search and rescue?
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da tragaju za ljudima?
09:40
The main thing, the main point of all this for me is
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Za mene je glavno
09:44
that we can find mutually beneficial systems for these species.
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da možemo naći sistem obostrane koristi.
09:46
We can find ways to interact with these other species
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Možemo naći interakciju
09:48
that doesn't involve exterminating them,
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koja ne obuhvata njihovo istrebljenje
09:50
but involves finding an equilibrium with them that's a useful balance.
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već pronalaženje korisne ravnoteže.
09:54
Thanks very much.
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Hvala.
09:56
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Joshua Klein - HackerJoshua Klein is a fervent hacker of all things, including wet, pulpy systems like animals and people and the way they behave.
Why you should listen
Joshua Klein will hack anything that moves -- his list includes "social systems, computer networks, institutions, consumer hardware and animal behavior." His latest project, though charmingly low-tech, has amazing implications for the human-animal interface.
Right now, Klein is working at Frog Design as a Principle Technologist, while developing mobile/social applications, health care-related systems and other tools that improve people's lives. He's the author of the novel Roo'd, which was the first modern book (after Tarzan) to be ported to the iPhone.
Joshua Klein | Speaker | TED.com