TED2014
Richard Ledgett: The NSA responds to Edward Snowden's TED Talk
理查德·雷德傑德: 國安局回應斯諾登的 TED 演講
Filmed:
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在愛德華·斯諾登出人意料地出現在 TED2014 大會上之後，克里斯·安德森說：「如果美國國安局想要回應的話，請便。」於是，他們回應了。通過影片，美國國安局副局長理查德·雷德傑德回答了安德森關於如何權衡國家安全與隱私保護的問題。
Richard Ledgett - Deputy director, NSA
Richard Ledgett is deputy director and senior civilian leader of the National Security Agency. He acts as the agency’s chief operating officer, responsible for guiding and directing studies, operations and policy. Full bio
Richard Ledgett is deputy director and senior civilian leader of the National Security Agency. He acts as the agency’s chief operating officer, responsible for guiding and directing studies, operations and policy. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Chris Anderson: We had Edward Snowden here
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克里斯：愛德華斯諾登幾天前
00:14
a couple days ago,
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來到了這裏，
00:16
and this is response time.
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現在是回應時間。
00:18
And several of you have written to me
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你們當中的有些人寫信給我
00:20
with questions to ask our guest here from the NSA.
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提問我們來自美國國家安全局的嘉賓。
00:25
So Richard Ledgett is the 15th deputy director
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查德·雷德傑德是美國國家安全局的
00:27
of the National Security Agency,
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第15位副主任
00:30
and he's a senior civilian officer there,
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並且他是那兒的高級文職人員，
00:33
acts as its chief operating officer,
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擔任首席營運官，
00:35
guiding strategies, setting internal policies,
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負責戰略指導和內部制度建設，
00:39
and serving as the principal advisor to the director.
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並且擔任主任的主要顧問。
00:43
And all being well,
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就說這麼多，
00:45
welcome, Rick Ledgett, to TED.
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有請查德·雷德傑德來到 TED。
00:48
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
00:55
Richard Ledgett: I'm really thankful for the opportunity to talk to folks here.
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查德·雷德傑德：我感到非常榮幸
能有機會給這裏的觀衆演講。
能有機會給這裏的觀衆演講。
00:59
I look forward to the conversation,
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我很期待這次談話，
01:01
so thanks for arranging for that.
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非常感謝給我安排了這些。
01:04
CA: Thank you, Rick.
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克里斯：謝謝你，理查。
01:05
We appreciate you joining us.
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我們感謝你的到來。
01:08
It's certainly quite a strong statement
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這是一個鄭重的聲明
01:10
that the NSA is willing to reach out
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說美國安全局試圖與外界溝通，
01:12
and show a more open face here.
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並表現出更開放的一面。
01:16
You saw, I think,
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你看過的，我認為，
01:18
the talk and interview that Edward Snowden
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前幾天在這兒
01:22
gave here a couple days ago.
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斯諾登做的演講及採訪。
01:23
What did you make of it?
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你是怎麼想的？
01:25
RL: So I think it was interesting.
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理查德：我認為很有意思。
01:28
We didn't realize that he
was going to show up there,
was going to show up there,
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我們沒有意識到他會出現在這兒，
01:31
so kudos to you guys for arranging
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所以恭喜你們在這件事上做得很好，
01:34
a nice surprise like that.
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給了我們一個驚喜。
01:37
I think that, like a lot of the things
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我認為，像發生的很多事情一樣，
01:42
that have come out since Mr. Snowden
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在斯諾登先生
01:47
started disclosing classified information,
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開始披露機密信息以後，
01:50
there were some kernels of truth in there,
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這裡面有部份核心的事實，
01:53
but a lot of extrapolations and half-truths in there,
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但是也有推斷和半真半假的內容。
01:56
and I'm interested in helping to address those.
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我很樂意解釋這些問題。
01:59
I think this is a really important conversation
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我認為這是一次非常重要的對話
02:01
that we're having in the United States
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在我們美國
02:03
and internationally,
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和全世界。
02:04
and I think it is important and of import,
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我亦認為這點很重要並且有重要性，
02:09
and so given that, we need to have that be
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這麼說，我們需要將它作為
02:12
a fact-based conversation,
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一次基於事實的談話，
02:14
and we want to help make that happen.
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並且我們希望協助對話的實現。
02:16
CA: So the question that a lot
of people have here is,
of people have here is,
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克里斯：所以很多人的問題是，
02:21
what do you make of Snowden's motivations
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你認為斯諾登的動機是是什麼
02:24
for doing what he did,
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讓他做了那些事情，
02:26
and did he have an alternative
way that he could have gone?
way that he could have gone?
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並且他有什麼其他選擇嗎？
02:30
RL: He absolutely did
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理查德：他的的確確
02:33
have alternative ways that he could have gone,
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有其他的選擇，
02:37
and I actually think that characterizing him
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而且我認為把他歸類為
02:43
as a whistleblower
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一個告密者
02:44
actually hurts legitimate whistleblowing activities.
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會阻礙了合法舉報的行為。
02:48
So what if somebody who works in the NSA --
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所以說如果一些在美國安全局工作的人
02:52
and there are over 35,000 people who do.
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那裡有超過 35000 個人。
02:55
They're all great citizens.
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他們全部是優秀的公民。
02:57
They're just like your husbands, fathers, sisters,
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他們就像是你的丈夫，父親，姐妹，
02:59
brothers, neighbors, nephews, friends and relatives,
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兄弟，鄰居，侄子，朋友和親戚，
03:03
all of whom are interested in doing the right thing
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他們全都對做正確的事情感興趣
03:06
for their country
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為他們的國家，
03:07
and for our allies internationally,
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也為我們國際上的同盟國。
03:10
and so there are a variety of venues to address
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所以有很多問題需要強調
03:14
if folks have a concern.
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如果大家有疑慮的話。
03:15
First off, there's their supervisor,
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首先，是他們的管理者，
03:17
and up through the supervisory chain
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以及在他們的機構內部
03:20
within their organization.
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處在管理鏈上方的人。
03:21
If folks aren't comfortable with that,
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如果他們不喜歡這樣的安排，
03:23
there are a number of inspectors general.
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美國聯網政府體系下有很多監察長。
03:25
In the case of Mr. Snowden, he had the option
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像斯諾登這種情況，他有選擇
03:29
of the NSA inspector general,
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可以告訴美國安全局監察長，
03:31
the Navy inspector general,
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海軍監察長，
03:32
the Pacific Command inspector general,
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太平洋司令部監察長，
03:34
the Department of Defense inspector general,
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國防部監察長，
03:36
and the intelligence community inspector general,
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情報局監察長，
03:38
any of whom would have both kept
his concerns in classified channels
his concerns in classified channels
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任何人都是可以把他的擔憂列入內部系統
03:42
and been happy to address them.
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並且樂意處理的人。
03:45
(CA and RL speaking at once)
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（理查德和安德森同時說話）
03:47
He had the option to go to
congressional committees,
congressional committees,
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他可以選擇去找國會議員，
03:50
and there are mechanisms
to do that that are in place,
to do that that are in place,
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那裡有處理這些的方法，
03:53
and so he didn't do any of those things.
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然而他並沒有選擇以上任何方法。
03:55
CA: Now, you had said that
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安德森：剛剛，你說到
03:58
Ed Snowden had other avenues
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斯諾登有其他的渠道
04:01
for raising his concerns.
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可以提出他的擔憂。
04:03
The comeback on that is a couple of things:
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但是另一方面：
04:07
one, that he certainly believes that as a contractor,
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第一，他完全相信作為承包商，
04:10
the avenues that would have been available
to him as an employee weren't available,
to him as an employee weren't available,
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職員有的選擇他并不擁有，
04:14
two, there's a track record of other whistleblowers,
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第二，有其他舉報者的記錄，
04:18
like [Thomas Andrews Drake] being treated
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像托馬斯·安德魯斯·德雷克
（美國國家安全局前高級官員）
是如何被嚴酷對待的
（美國國家安全局前高級官員）
是如何被嚴酷對待的
04:20
pretty harshly, by some views,
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從某些角度看，
04:23
and thirdly, what he was taking on
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第三，他做的事情
04:25
was not one specific flaw that he'd discovered,
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不是針對一個他發現的缺陷，
04:28
but programs that had been approved
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而是針對被整個三權分立的政府機構
04:30
by all three branches of government.
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所認可的系統。
04:33
I mean, in that circumstance,
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我認為，在那種情況下，
04:36
couldn't you argue that what he did
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你難道能說他所做的事
04:38
was reasonable?
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是不理性的？
04:41
RL: No, I don't agree with that.
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理查德：不，我不認同。
04:43
I think that the —
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我認為他——
04:47
sorry, I'm getting feedback
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不好意思，我一直聽到回音
04:49
through the microphone there —
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通過麥克——
04:52
the actions that he took were inappropriate
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他的做法是不合適的
04:57
because of the fact that
he put people's lives at risk,
he put people's lives at risk,
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因為他把人們的生命置於危險之中，
05:02
basically, in the long run,
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本質上，從長遠上看，
05:04
and I know there's been a lot of talk
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而且我知道有很多公眾演講中
05:05
in public by Mr. Snowden
and some of the journalists
and some of the journalists
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由斯諾登和一些記者
05:10
that say that the things that have been disclosed
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說那些被暴露的事情
05:13
have not put national security and people at risk,
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並沒有影響國家安全和人們的生命安全，
05:17
and that is categorically not true.
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這樣斷然是不正確的。
05:22
They actually do.
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它們確實影響到了國家和人民的安全。
05:24
I think there's also an amazing arrogance
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我認為同樣有一種驚人的傲慢
05:26
to the idea that he knows better than
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對這樣一種觀點認為他知道的比
05:31
the framers of the Constitution
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憲法的制定者多
05:34
in how the government should
be designed and work
be designed and work
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在政府應該如何設計及運作
05:36
for separation of powers
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分工方面
05:38
and the fact that the executive
and the legislative branch
and the legislative branch
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並且事實上執法和立法部門
05:45
have to work together and they have
checks and balances on each other,
checks and balances on each other,
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必須共同合作保持平衡，
05:47
and then the judicial branch,
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而且司法部門，
05:49
which oversees the entire process.
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監督整個過程。
05:50
I think that's extremely arrogant on his part.
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我認為他在這方面是相當自大的。
05:55
CA: Can you give a specific example
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安德森：你能舉一個具體的例子
05:57
of how he put people's lives at risk?
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他是怎麼把人們的生命置於危險的嗎？
06:00
RL: Yeah, sure.
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理查德：好的。
06:02
So the things that he's disclosed,
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他揭露的事情，
06:06
the capabilities,
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功能，
06:07
and the NSA is a capabilities-based organization,
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美國安全局是一個基於功能的組織，
06:10
so when we have foreign intelligence targets,
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當我們有國外情報目標時，
06:14
legitimate things of interest --
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合法的感興趣的目標時——
06:15
like, terrorists is the iconic example,
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像，恐怖主義是個代表例子，
06:17
but it includes things like human traffickers,
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但是也包括像人販子，
06:20
drug traffickers,
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毒品販子，
06:22
people who are trying to build
advanced weaponry, nuclear weapons,
advanced weaponry, nuclear weapons,
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準備製造進階武器，核武器的人們，
06:26
and build delivery systems for those,
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和為這些武器建立運輸系統的人們，
06:28
and nation-states who might be executing aggression against their immediate neighbors,
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和那些準備侵略近鄰的國家，
06:32
which you may have some visibility
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你可能以預測到
06:34
into some of that that's going on right now,
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哪些正在進行中，
06:37
the capabilities are applied
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這些功能被應用
06:41
in very discrete and measured and controlled ways.
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在一種非常離散、可測量及可控制的方式。
06:46
So the unconstrained disclosure
of those capabilities
of those capabilities
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所以不受約束地披露這些功能
06:49
means that as adversaries see them
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意味著敵人看到
06:51
and recognize, "Hey, I might be vulnerable to this,"
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並意識到「哈，我可能會受影響，」
06:54
they move away from that,
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從而不這麼做，
06:55
and we have seen targets in terrorism,
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因而我們看見恐怖目標，
06:58
in the nation-state area,
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在全國範圍，
07:00
in smugglers of various types, and other folks
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在各種各樣的走私者中，和其他人
07:03
who have, because of the disclosures,
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因為這個揭露者
07:05
moved away from our ability
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而離開了我們能控制的範圍
07:08
to have insight into what they're doing.
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及我們的監控。
07:10
The net effect of that is that our people
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這樣整體的影響是我們的人民
07:13
who are overseas in dangerous places,
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在海外危險的地方的人民，
07:15
whether they're diplomats or military,
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不論他們是從事外交還是軍事，
07:17
and our allies who are in similar situations,
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或是和我們情況一樣的盟國
07:20
are at greater risk because we don't see
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都處在極危險的狀態中因為我們看不見
07:23
the threats that are coming their way.
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這些即將到臨的危險。
07:26
CA: So that's a general response saying that
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克里斯：這裡有一種反應說是
07:28
because of his revelations,
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因為他的揭露，
07:30
access that you had to certain types of information
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能夠獲得信息的渠道
07:33
has been shut down, has been closed down.
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就被關閉了。
07:36
But the concern is that the nature of that access
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但是現在的問題是本質上這種獲得
07:40
was not necessarily legitimate in the first place.
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信息的渠道一開始就不是合法的。
07:43
I mean, describe to us this Bullrun program
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我的意思是，描述一下這種奔牛系統
07:46
where it's alleged that the NSA
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美國安全局斷言的
07:48
specifically weakened security
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削弱了安全
07:51
in order to get the type of
access that you've spoken of.
access that you've spoken of.
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為了得到一些你說的獲得信息的渠道。
07:55
RL: So there are, when our
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理查德：所以有，當我們
08:00
legitimate foreign intelligence targets
of the type that I described before,
of the type that I described before,
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合法的情報目標如我前面描述的，
08:03
use the global telecommunications system
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用全球通訊系統
08:06
as their communications methodology,
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作為他們通訐方式，
08:08
and they do, because it's a great system,
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他們會這麼做的，
因為這是一個很好的系統，
因為這是一個很好的系統，
08:10
it's the most complex system ever devised by man,
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這是人類設計的最複雜的系統，
08:12
and it is a wonder,
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而且是個奇跡，
08:14
and lots of folks in the room there
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有很多人呆在房間裡
08:16
are responsible for the creation
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負責創造
08:18
and enhancement of that,
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和增強它，
08:19
and it's just a wonderful thing.
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它是一個奇妙的東西。
08:22
But it's also used by people who are
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但是，它也同樣被人們
08:25
working against us and our allies.
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利用來對付我們和我們的同盟。
08:27
And so if I'm going to pursue them,
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所以如果我要追究他們，
08:29
I need to have the capability
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我需要一種
08:31
to go after them,
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跟蹤他們的能力，
08:33
and again, the controls are in
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同樣，這種控制在於
08:36
how I apply that capability,
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我是如何運用我的能力，
08:39
not that I have the capability itself.
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而不是在於我擁有能力的本身。
08:41
Otherwise, if we could make it so that
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否則，如果我們可以這麼做
08:43
all the bad guys used one corner of the Internet,
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所有的壞人都在網絡的一角，
08:45
we could have a domain, badguy.com.
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我們可以有一個域名，badguy.com
08:47
That would be awesome,
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這樣多棒的，
08:48
and we could just concentrate all our efforts there.
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這樣我們可以集中我們的力量在那裡。
08:50
That's not how it works.
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現實不是這個樣子的。
08:52
They're trying to hide
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壞人努力想要隱藏在
08:54
from the government's ability
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政府隔離阻斷他們行為的
08:56
to isolate and interdict their actions,
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能力之外，
08:59
and so we have to swim in that same space.
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因此我們也不得不
和他們處於同一個空間。
和他們處於同一個空間。
09:02
But I will tell you this.
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但是我要告訴你這一點。
09:03
So NSA has two missions.
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美國安全局有兩個任務。
09:05
One is the Signals Intelligence mission
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第一是通知情報安全局
09:06
that we've unfortunately read so
much about in the press.
much about in the press.
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這點不幸地我們已經
通過媒體了解了很多。
通過媒體了解了很多。
09:10
The other one is the Information Assurance mission,
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另一個任務是信息安全保障，
09:12
which is to protect the national security
systems of the United States,
systems of the United States,
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旨在保護美國的國家安全系統，
09:15
and by that, that's things like
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1968
通過這，像
09:17
the communications that the president uses,
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2016
總統用的通信，
09:19
the communications that
control our nuclear weapons,
control our nuclear weapons,
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控制核武器的通信，
09:21
the communications that our
military uses around the world,
military uses around the world,
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全世界我們軍隊用的通信，
09:23
and the communications that we use with our allies,
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和我們與盟國直接的通信，
09:26
and that some of our allies themselves use.
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還有我們盟國自己用的。
09:28
And so we make recommendations
on standards to use,
on standards to use,
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所以我們就使用標準提出意見，
09:33
and we use those same standards,
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我們用同樣的標準，
09:35
and so we are invested
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所以我們投資在
09:37
in making sure that those communications
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確保這些通信
09:39
are secure for their intended purposes.
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的功能是安全及可靠的。
09:43
CA: But it sounds like what you're saying is that
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克里斯：但是這聽起來你是說
09:45
when it comes to the Internet at large,
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當涉及到大如網際網路，
09:49
any strategy is fair game
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任何策略都是公平的
09:51
if it improves America's safety.
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如果是為了提高美國的安全。
09:54
And I think this is partly where there is such
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並且我認為這是一部分
09:56
a divide of opinion,
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就是人們意見分歧的地方，
09:58
that there's a lot of people in this room
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現場很多的人們
09:59
and around the world
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及全世界的人中
10:00
who think very differently about the Internet.
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並不是這麼看待網際網路。
10:02
They think of it as a momentous
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他們認為網路是一個人類
10:05
invention of humanity,
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1598
巨大的發明，
10:07
kind of on a par with the
Gutenberg press, for example.
Gutenberg press, for example.
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3164
例如與古騰堡看齊的那種，
10:10
It's the bringer of knowledge to all.
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它是知識的所有使者。
10:12
It's the connector of all.
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是一切的連接。
10:14
And it's viewed in those sort of idealistic terms.
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它是被這些理想的詞彙描述。
10:17
And from that lens,
223
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從這些視角，
10:19
what the NSA has done is equivalent to
224
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美國安全局做的相當於
10:21
the authorities back in Germany
225
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2160
和德國當局以前
10:24
inserting some device into every printing press
226
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在所有的印刷社安裝設備，
10:26
that would reveal which books people bought
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可以洩露人們買哪些書
10:30
and what they read.
228
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2020
和讀哪些書。
10:32
Can you understand that from that viewpoint,
229
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你可以從這個立場理解
10:34
it feels outrageous?
230
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這是多麼的蠻橫和不像話嗎？
10:38
RL: I do understand that, and I actually share
the view of the utility of the Internet,
the view of the utility of the Internet,
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理查德：我明白這一點，事實上
我也是這麼看待網路的使用，
我也是這麼看待網路的使用，
10:42
and I would argue it's bigger than the Internet.
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並且我會爭辯說它比網路還要大。
10:43
It is a global telecommunications system.
233
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它是一個全球通訊系統。
10:46
The Internet is a big chunk of
that, but there is a lot more.
that, but there is a lot more.
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2451
網際網路只是其中的一大部份，
但是還有其他很多的東西。
但是還有其他很多的東西。
10:48
And I think that people have legitimate concerns
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我認為人們有合法的關注
10:52
about the balance between
transparency and secrecy.
transparency and secrecy.
236
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6306
對於透明度和機密的平衡。
10:58
That's sort of been couched as a balance
237
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1940
這樣一個橫臥在
11:00
between privacy and national security.
238
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3636
隱私和國家安全的平衡。
11:04
I don't think that's the right framing.
239
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1420
我不認為這是正確的。
11:05
I think it really is transparency and secrecy.
240
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我認為這是有關透明度和隱私。
11:07
And so that's the national and international conversation that we're having,
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3559
所以我們現在這是國家和世界的對話，
11:11
and we want to participate in that, and want
242
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1399
我們想要參與其中，並且想要
11:12
people to participate in it in an informed way.
243
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2440
人們以一種知情的方式參與其中。
11:15
So there are things,
244
663241
1911
所以有些事情，
11:17
let me talk there a little bit more,
245
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1450
讓我對此加以闡述，
11:18
there are things that we need
to be transparent about:
to be transparent about:
246
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3769
有些事情我們需要保持透明度：
11:22
our authorities, our processes,
247
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2027
我們的主管部門，我們的過程，
11:24
our oversight, who we are.
248
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2054
我們的疏忽，我們是誰。
11:26
We, NSA, have not done a good job of that,
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我們，國家安全局，對於這點並沒有做到很好，
11:28
and I think that's part of the reason
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1388
所以我認為這是一部分原因
11:29
that this has been so revelational
251
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2729
這樣被披露
11:32
and so sensational in the media.
252
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2196
容易被煽情在媒體中。
11:34
Nobody knew who we were. We were the No Such Agency, the Never Say Anything.
253
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4126
沒有人知道我們是誰。
我們是不存在的，是從不說任何事。
我們是不存在的，是從不說任何事。
11:38
There's takeoffs of our logo
254
686657
2649
在我們的標誌中有種權衡
11:41
of an eagle with headphones on around it.
255
689306
3019
一隻老鷹和它頭上的耳機。
11:44
And so that's the public characterization.
256
692325
3623
所以這是公眾特徵。
11:47
And so we need to be more
transparent about those things.
transparent about those things.
257
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4336
而且我們需要對這些事情更加透明。
11:52
What we don't need to be transparent about,
258
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1418
而我們不需要透明的事情，
11:53
because it's bad for the U.S.,
259
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2338
一些會對美國不利，
11:56
it's bad for all those other
countries that we work with
countries that we work with
260
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對其他我與們合作的國家不利，
11:58
and that we help provide information
261
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2093
並且我們提供資訊
12:00
that helps them secure themselves
262
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1722
去幫助他們確保自己的安全
12:02
and their people,
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1509
和他們人民的安全，
12:03
it's bad to expose operations and capabilities
264
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3890
暴露這些行動和能力是糟糕的
12:07
in a way that allows the people
that we're all working against,
that we're all working against,
265
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5292
對於我們的敵人來說，
12:13
the generally recognized bad guys,
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4963
那些普遍認為的壞人，
12:18
to counter those.
267
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2300
需要對付的那些人。
12:20
CA: But isn't it also bad to deal
268
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3025
克里斯：但是這不也是糟糕的
12:23
a kind of body blow to the American companies
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3404
去對付打擊了那些美國公司
12:26
that have essentially given the world
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1896
幾乎為整個世界
12:28
most of the Internet services that matter?
271
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5180
提供網絡服務的公司？
12:33
RL: It is. It's really the companies are
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3392
理查德：是的。這些公司事實上
12:37
in a tough position, as are we,
273
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3388
處在艱難的位置，和我們一樣，
12:40
because the companies,
274
748677
1941
因為這些公司，
12:42
we compel them to provide information,
275
750618
2332
我們強迫他們提供信息，
12:44
just like every other nation in the world does.
276
752950
1983
和世界上其他國家一樣。
12:46
Every industrialized nation in the world
277
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3274
世界上任何一個工業化的國家
12:50
has a lawful intercept program
278
758207
2100
都有一個合法攔截程序
12:52
where they are requiring companies
279
760307
2498
它們要求公司
12:54
to provide them with information
280
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1411
提供他們信息
12:56
that they need for their security,
281
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1655
為了保證安全，
12:57
and the companies that are involved
282
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2227
而且這些參與的公司
13:00
have complied with those programs
283
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1428
遵守這些程序
13:01
in the same way that they have to do
284
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1618
以一種不得已的方式
13:03
when they're operating in Russia or the U.K.
285
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3450
如果他們在俄國或者英國運營，
13:06
or China or India or France,
286
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4286
或者中國，印度，法國，
13:10
any country that you choose to name.
287
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2018
任何一個你說得出的國家。
13:12
And so the fact that these revelations
288
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4909
所以事實上這些啟示
13:17
have been broadly characterized as
289
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2294
被定性為
13:20
"you can't trust company A because
290
788101
1890
「你不能相信公司Ａ因為
13:21
your privacy is suspect with them"
291
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3515
你的隱私對於他們來說是犯罪嫌疑人」
13:25
is actually only accurate in the sense that
292
793506
4041
事實上只有準確的意義
13:29
it's accurate with every other company in the world
293
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2736
和其他世界上的
13:32
that deals with any of those countries in the world.
294
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2159
要和世界上的這些國家打交道的公司。
13:34
And so it's being picked up by people
295
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2128
所以這點被人們指出
13:36
as a marketing advantage,
296
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1594
作為市場營銷優勢，
13:38
and it's being marketed that
way by several countries,
way by several countries,
297
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1773
而且在幾個國家被這樣標記，
13:39
including some of our allied countries,
298
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1511
包括我們的同盟國，
13:41
where they are saying,
299
809448
1502
那裡的人們說，
13:42
"Hey, you can't trust the U.S.,
300
810950
1529
「嗨，你不能相信美國，
13:44
but you can trust our telecom company,
301
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2586
但是你可以相信我們的通信公司，
13:47
because we're safe."
302
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1354
因為我們是安全的。」
13:48
And they're actually using that to counter
303
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1659
事實上它們使用反擊
13:50
the very large technological edge
304
818078
2318
非常大的邊緣技術
13:52
that U.S. companies have
305
820396
1809
那些美國公司所擁有的
13:54
in areas like the cloud and
Internet-based technologies.
Internet-based technologies.
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3906
在雲計算和基於網路的領域。
13:58
CA: You're sitting there with the American flag,
307
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3007
克里斯：你和一面美國國旗坐在一起，
14:01
and the American Constitution guarantees
308
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3570
而且美國憲法確保
14:04
freedom from unreasonable search and seizure.
309
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2847
不受不合理的搜查和逮捕的自由權利。
14:07
How do you characterize
310
835535
1961
你如何定性
14:09
the American citizen's right to privacy?
311
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4480
美國公民的隱私權？
14:13
Is there such a right?
312
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2281
有這樣的權利嗎？
14:16
RL: Yeah, of course there is.
313
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2736
理查德：是，當然有。
14:18
And we devote an inordinate
amount of time and pressure,
amount of time and pressure,
314
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3043
並且我們投入過多的時間和壓力，
14:22
inordinate and appropriate, actually I should say,
315
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2284
過多的而且合適的，事實上我應該這樣說，
14:24
amount of time and effort in order to ensure
316
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2208
（我們投入了）大量的時間和精力為了確保
14:26
that we protect that privacy.
317
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2332
我們保護隱私。
14:28
and beyond that, the privacy of citizens
318
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3057
除此之外，也保護
14:31
around the world, it's not just Americans.
319
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3649
在世界範圍內，不光是美國人的公民隱私。
14:35
Several things come into play here.
320
863566
1900
有幾件事情發揮著作用。
14:37
First, we're all in the same network.
321
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1748
第一，我們處在同一個網絡。
14:39
My communications,
322
867214
1574
我的通信，
14:40
I'm a user of a particular Internet email service
323
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4147
我是一特定的網路郵件服務的其中一個用戶
14:44
that is the number one email service of choice
324
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3971
這服務也是
14:48
by terrorists around the world, number one.
325
876906
1593
世界上恐怖主義使用郵件服務的首選。
14:50
So I'm there right beside them in email space
326
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2725
所以在網路的郵件空間里，
14:53
in the Internet.
327
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1889
我就在他們旁邊。
14:55
And so we need to be able to pick that apart
328
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3592
所以我們需要能夠挑出那部分
14:58
and find the information that's relevant.
329
886705
3855
並找到相關的信息。
15:05
In doing so, we're going to necessarily encounter
330
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3362
這樣做，我們就一定會遇到
15:08
Americans and innocent foreign citizens
331
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2068
美國人和無辜的外國人
15:10
who are just going about their business,
332
898561
1546
那些只在忙自己分內事的人。
15:12
and so we have procedures in
place that shreds that out,
place that shreds that out,
333
900107
2698
因此，我們有操作程序
將這部份信息（恐怖分子）分離出來，
將這部份信息（恐怖分子）分離出來，
15:14
that says, when you find that,
334
902805
2215
也就是說，當你發現這個信息的時候，
15:17
not if you find it, when you find it,
because you're certain to find it,
because you're certain to find it,
335
905020
2267
不是如果你發現，而是
當你發現，因為你一定會發現，
當你發現，因為你一定會發現，
15:19
here's how you protect that.
336
907287
1783
你將如何保護這個信息。
15:21
These are called minimization procedures.
337
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2105
這些被稱作最小化程序。
15:23
They're approved by the attorney general
338
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2028
他們由總監察長批准
15:25
and constitutionally based.
339
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1600
并依據憲法。
15:26
And so we protect those.
340
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2480
所以我們保護這些操作程序。
15:29
And then, for people, citizens of the world
341
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4471
然後，我們再保護人民，世界各國的公民
15:33
who are going about their lawful business
342
921754
1879
那些做著合法生意
15:35
on a day-to-day basis,
343
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1707
日常工作的人。
15:37
the president on his January 17 speech,
344
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2296
總統在1月17日的演講中，
15:39
laid out some additional protections
345
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1493
提出額外的我們將提供的
15:41
that we are providing to them.
346
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2059
保護措施。
15:43
So I think absolutely,
347
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1872
所以我絕對認為，
15:45
folks do have a right to privacy,
348
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1535
人們有隱私權，
15:46
and that we work very hard to make sure
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而且我們非常努力確保
15:49
that that right to privacy is protected.
350
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隱私權被保護。
15:52
CA: What about foreigners using
351
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1736
克里斯：那麼對於
15:53
American companies' Internet services?
352
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2150
使用美國公司網路服務的外國人來說呢？
15:55
Do they have any privacy rights?
353
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3845
他們有隱私權嗎？
15:59
RL: They do. They do, in the sense of,
354
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2673
理查德：他們有，他們有的，在某種意義上，
16:02
the only way that we are able to compel
355
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5740
我們唯一能強迫
16:08
one of those companies to provide us information
356
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2326
這些公司的其中一員提供給我們信息的
16:10
is when it falls into one of three categories:
357
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3462
只有這三種情況：
16:13
We can identify that this particular person,
358
961952
3552
我們可以辨別由某種選擇器鑒定出的
16:17
identified by a selector of some kind,
359
965504
2390
這個特定的人
16:19
is associated with counterterrorist
360
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3356
與反恐有關，
16:23
or proliferation or other foreign intelligence target.
361
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5249
或者與擴散外國情報目標有關。
16:28
CA: Much has been made of the fact that
362
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1782
克里斯：大多數事實表明，
16:30
a lot of the information that you've obtained
363
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2466
大部分你通過這些計劃
16:32
through these programs is essentially metadata.
364
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2276
獲得的信息是元數據。
16:35
It's not necessarily the actual words
365
983023
2295
不見得是某人寫在郵件中
16:37
that someone has written in an email
366
985318
1653
的實際文字
16:38
or given on a phone call.
367
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1349
或者電話會話中的實際文字。
16:40
It's who they wrote to and when, and so forth.
368
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4049
是那些收件的人、時間等等。
16:44
But it's been argued,
369
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1536
但是這有爭議，
16:45
and someone here in the audience has talked
370
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2111
現場有觀眾和
16:48
to a former NSA analyst who said
371
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2467
以前的國家安全局分析師聊過
16:50
metadata is actually much more invasive
372
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2387
元數據實際上更具有侵略性
16:52
than the core data,
373
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1403
和核心數據比起來，
16:54
because in the core data
374
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1133
因為在核心數據中
16:55
you present yourself as you want to be presented.
375
1003406
3227
你把自己想展示出來的一面展示出來。
16:58
With metadata, who knows what the conclusions are
376
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2706
有了元數據，誰知道那些結論
17:01
that are drawn?
377
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1416
是怎麼得到的？
17:02
Is there anything to that?
378
1010755
2006
有什麼說法嗎？
17:04
RL: I don't really understand that argument.
379
1012761
1789
理查德：我實際上不明白那點爭議。
17:06
I think that metadata's important
for a couple of reasons.
for a couple of reasons.
380
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2900
我認為元數據很重要有幾點原因。
17:09
Metadata is the information that lets you
381
1017450
4478
元數據是信息，它讓你
17:13
find connections that people are trying to hide.
382
1021928
3391
找到那些人們想隱藏起來的關係。
17:17
So when a terrorist is corresponding
383
1025319
2011
所以當一個恐怖分子回應了
17:19
with somebody else who's not known to us
384
1027330
1845
一些我們不認識的人，
17:21
but is engaged in doing or
supporting terrorist activity,
supporting terrorist activity,
385
1029175
2608
但卻從事或支持恐怖活動的人，
17:23
or someone who's violating international sanctions
386
1031783
2426
或者某些通過提供核武器相關材料
17:26
by providing nuclear weapons-related material
387
1034209
3077
給像伊朗和北韓等國家的
17:29
to a country like Iran or North Korea,
388
1037286
2326
違反國際制裁的人，
17:31
is trying to hide that activity
because it's illicit activity.
because it's illicit activity.
389
1039612
3577
正想方設法隱藏這些非法活動。
17:35
What metadata lets you do is connect that.
390
1043189
2810
元數據讓你把這些聯繫起來。
17:37
The alternative to that
391
1045999
1532
另一種選擇
17:39
is one that's much less efficient
392
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1619
是一種效率低得多
17:41
and much more invasive of privacy,
393
1049150
1381
而且更侵略隱私的方式，
17:42
which is gigantic amounts of content collection.
394
1050531
3836
那就是極大量的內容集合。
17:46
So metadata, in that sense,
395
1054367
1393
所以元數據，在某種意義上，
17:47
actually is privacy-enhancing.
396
1055760
2396
其實增強了隱私。
17:50
And we don't, contrary to some of the stuff
397
1058156
2105
而且我們不……
17:52
that's been printed,
398
1060261
1715
和刊登的消息相反，
17:53
we don't sit there and grind out
399
1061976
2769
我們不坐在那挑出
17:56
metadata profiles of average people.
400
1064745
2837
一般人的元數據資料。
17:59
If you're not connected
401
1067582
1956
如果你不和
18:01
to one of those valid intelligence targets,
402
1069538
3052
那些有效的情報目標聯繫，
18:04
you are not of interest to us.
403
1072590
3413
我們對你不感興趣。
18:08
CA: So in terms of the threats
404
1076003
3172
克里斯：從美國面臨
18:11
that face America overall,
405
1079175
2312
的整體威脅來講，
18:13
where would you place terrorism?
406
1081487
3212
你把恐怖主義排在哪裡？
18:16
RL: I think terrorism is still number one.
407
1084699
3098
理查德：我認為恐怖主義仍然是第一。
18:19
I think that we have never been in a time
408
1087797
3904
我認為我們從來沒有處在這樣的時代
18:23
where there are more places
409
1091701
1991
有更多的地方
18:25
where things are going badly
410
1093692
2853
發生了糟糕的事情
18:28
and forming the petri dish in which terrorists
411
1096545
3901
並且像培養皿一樣。在那裏恐怖主義
18:32
take advantage of the lack of governance.
412
1100446
5310
利用政府的治理欠缺興風作浪。
18:37
An old boss of mine, Tom Fargo, Admiral Fargo,
413
1105756
3637
我以前的一個上司，Tom Fargo，海軍上將 Fargo，
18:41
used to describe it as arcs of instability.
414
1109393
2213
曾經形容它是不穩定弧。
18:43
And so you have a lot of those arcs of instability
415
1111606
2368
所以你現在有很多這些
18:45
in the world right now,
416
1113974
1693
不穩定弧在世界上，
18:47
in places like Syria, where there's a civil war
417
1115667
1837
像在敘利亞，那裏有一場內戰
18:49
going on and you have massive numbers,
418
1117504
2710
你有大量的人，
18:52
thousands and thousands of foreign fighters
419
1120214
1735
成千上萬的外國戰士
18:53
who are coming into Syria
420
1121949
1733
來到敘利亞，
18:55
to learn how to be terrorists
421
1123682
1503
去學習如何成爲恐怖主義者
18:57
and practice that activity,
422
1125185
2101
並且練習這項活動，
18:59
and lots of those people are Westerners
423
1127286
2699
並且這些人裡的很多人是西方人，
19:01
who hold passports to European countries
424
1129985
3729
有著歐洲國家護照，
19:05
or in some cases the United States,
425
1133714
1752
有些人或有美國護照，
19:07
and so they are basically learning how
426
1135466
2401
所以他們本質上是在學習如何
19:09
to do jihad and have expressed intent
427
1137867
3480
討伐異教徒並表達了意向
19:13
to go out and do that later on
428
1141347
2413
表示他們走出去以後
19:15
in their home countries.
429
1143760
1667
也會在他們的祖國這麼做。
19:17
You've got places like Iraq,
430
1145427
1321
現在有伊拉克，
19:18
which is suffering from a high
level of sectarian violence,
level of sectarian violence,
431
1146748
2782
現在正承受着宗派暴力，
19:21
again a breeding ground for terrorism.
432
1149530
2651
同樣，它也是恐怖主義滋生的溫床。
19:24
And you have the activity in the Horn of Africa
433
1152181
2506
同樣在非洲之角有這樣的活動
19:26
and the Sahel area of Africa.
434
1154687
3047
在非洲薩赫勒地區也有。
19:29
Again, lots of weak governance
435
1157734
2528
同樣，許多由於治理薄弱
19:32
which forms a breeding ground for terrorist activity.
436
1160262
3891
而形成的恐怖活動的溫床。
19:36
So I think it's very serious. I think it's number one.
437
1164153
1994
所以我認爲這是非常嚴重的。
我認爲是第一位的。
我認爲是第一位的。
19:38
I think number two is cyber threat.
438
1166147
2254
我認爲第二是網路威脅。
19:40
I think cyber is a threat in three ways:
439
1168401
5764
我認爲網絡有三方面威脅：
19:46
One way, and probably the most common way
440
1174165
3754
第一，而且可能是最普遍的形式
19:49
that people have heard about it,
441
1177919
2192
人們聽過的，
19:52
is due to the theft of intellectual property,
442
1180111
2000
是由於竊取知識產權，
19:54
so basically, foreign countries going in,
443
1182111
4304
所以本質上，外國進入，
19:58
stealing companies' secrets,
444
1186415
1877
竊取公司機密，
20:00
and then providing that information
445
1188292
1998
並且提供這些信息
20:02
to state-owned enterprises
446
1190290
1737
給國有企業
20:04
or companies connected to the government
447
1192027
2949
或者和政府有關的公司，
20:06
to help them leapfrog technology
448
1194976
2503
去幫助他們推進技術進步
20:09
or to gain business intelligence
449
1197479
2075
或者竊取商業情報
20:11
that's then used to win contracts overseas.
450
1199554
2668
以此來贏得海外合同。
20:14
That is a hugely costly set of
activities that's going on right now.
activities that's going on right now.
451
1202222
3739
這是一些相當昂貴的正在進行的活動。
20:17
Several nation-states are doing it.
452
1205961
1467
有幾個國家正在做。
20:19
Second is the denial-of-service attacks.
453
1207428
3225
第二是拒絕服務攻擊。
20:22
You're probably aware that there have been
454
1210653
1379
你可能已經意識到
20:24
a spate of those directed against
455
1212032
1971
接連發生的自2012
20:26
the U.S. financial sector since 2012.
456
1214003
3588
針對美國金融業的攻擊。
20:29
Again, that's a nation-state who
is executing those attacks,
is executing those attacks,
457
1217591
2617
同樣，這是民族國家進行的攻擊，
20:32
and they're doing that
458
1220208
1073
並且他們這樣做
20:33
as a semi-anonymous way of reprisal.
459
1221281
4753
以此作為一種半匿名的報復方式。
20:38
And the last one is destructive attacks,
460
1226034
1390
最後一種是破壞性攻擊，
20:39
and those are the ones that concern me the most.
461
1227424
1526
這是我最擔心的一種。
20:40
Those are on the rise.
462
1228950
1400
這些正在增加。
20:42
You have the attack against Saudi Aramco in 2012,
463
1230350
3630
有2012年針對沙特阿美公司的，
20:45
August of 2012.
464
1233980
1690
在 2012 年 8 月，
20:47
It took down about 35,000 of their computers
465
1235670
2285
使 35000 台電腦癱瘓
20:49
with a Wiper-style virus.
466
1237955
1792
用一種雨刷式病毒。
20:51
You had a follow-on a week later
467
1239747
1913
一週之後，緊接着
20:53
to a Qatari company.
468
1241660
1534
有針對卡塔爾公司的。
20:55
You had March of 2013,
469
1243194
2141
2013 年 3 月份，
20:57
you had a South Korean attack
470
1245335
2671
韓國受到攻擊
21:00
that was attributed in the press to North Korea
471
1248006
2433
根據韓國報刊
21:02
that took out thousands of computers.
472
1250439
2055
成千的電腦癱瘓。
21:04
Those are on the rise,
473
1252494
1445
這些正在增加，
21:05
and we see people expressing interest
474
1253939
2734
並且我們看到人們對這些
21:08
in those capabilities
475
1256673
1176
能力表示感興趣，
21:09
and a desire to employ them.
476
1257849
2017
而且渴望採用它們。
21:11
CA: Okay, so a couple of things here,
477
1259866
1566
克里斯：好，現在有這樣幾件事情，
21:13
because this is really the core of this, almost.
478
1261432
1942
因爲這是核心，幾乎。
21:15
I mean, first of all,
479
1263374
1264
我的意思是，首先，
21:16
a lot of people who look at risk
480
1264638
1558
很多人看風險
21:18
and look at the numbers
481
1266196
1217
看數字
21:19
don't understand this belief that terrorism
482
1267413
2260
卻並不明白恐怖主義
21:21
is still the number one threat.
483
1269673
1884
仍然是頭號威脅這種觀點。
21:23
Apart from September 11,
484
1271557
1628
除了 911，
21:25
I think the numbers are that
in the last 30 or 40 years
in the last 30 or 40 years
485
1273185
2355
我認爲最近 30-40 年的數字
21:27
about 500 Americans have died from terrorism,
486
1275540
3101
大概有 500 美國人因恐怖事件喪生，
21:30
mostly from homegrown terrorists.
487
1278641
3983
大多數由於本土形成的恐怖勢力。
21:34
The chance in the last few years
488
1282624
1587
最近幾年被恐怖主義
21:36
of being killed by terrorism
489
1284211
1723
殺死的概率
21:37
is far less than the chance
of being killed by lightning.
of being killed by lightning.
490
1285934
3984
遠遠比被雷電擊中的概率要小。
21:41
I guess you would say that a single nuclear incident
491
1289918
3406
我猜你可以說一場核事故
21:45
or bioterrorism act or something like that
492
1293324
3326
或者生化威脅或者類似的行爲
21:48
would change those numbers.
493
1296650
1901
可以改變這些數字。
21:50
Would that be the point of view?
494
1298551
2162
是這樣的觀點嗎？
21:52
RL: Well, I'd say two things.
495
1300713
1176
理查德：好吧，我要說兩件事情。
21:53
One is, the reason that there hasn't been
496
1301889
1926
第一，自 911 以來還沒有一場
21:55
a major attack in the United States since 9/11,
497
1303815
1810
大的襲擊的原因是，
21:57
that is not an accident.
498
1305625
1556
那不是偶然。
21:59
That's a lot of hard work that we have done,
499
1307181
2186
我們做了很多努力的工作，
22:01
that other folks
500
1309367
1381
其他的人
22:02
in the intelligence community have done,
501
1310748
1383
在情報系統裏的，
22:04
that the military has done,
502
1312131
1181
在軍隊裏的人，
22:05
and that our allies around the globe have done.
503
1313312
2048
和我們的世界其他同盟國也做了很多努力。
22:07
You've heard the numbers about
504
1315360
2451
你聽過有關
22:09
the tip of the iceberg in terms
505
1317811
2532
美國國家安全局計劃所阻斷的恐怖襲擊
22:12
of numbers of terrorist attacks that NSA programs
506
1320343
2570
的次數停留在 54，
22:14
contributed to stopping was 54,
507
1322913
2759
那只是冰山一角，
22:17
25 of those in Europe,
508
1325672
1822
其中 25 個在歐洲，
22:19
and of those 25,
509
1327494
2130
在這 25 個裏，
22:21
18 of them occurred in three countries,
510
1329624
2605
18 個發生在三個國家，
22:24
some of which are our allies,
511
1332229
1863
其中一些是我們的同盟，
22:26
and some of which are beating the heck out of us
512
1334092
2199
另一些是嚴厲打擊我們的國家
22:28
over the NSA programs, by the way.
513
1336291
4477
尤其是美國國家安全局計劃，順便一提。
22:32
So that's not an accident that those things happen.
514
1340768
2692
所以不是偶然發生。
22:35
That's hard work. That's us finding intelligence
515
1343460
2325
是因為勤奮的工作。是因為我們發現了
22:37
on terrorist activities
516
1345785
1830
有關恐怖活動的情報
22:39
and interdicting them through one way or another,
517
1347615
1574
並且以不同的方式禁止，
22:41
through law enforcement,
518
1349189
1331
通過執法，
22:42
through cooperative activities with other countries
519
1350520
2830
通過和其他國家的合作，
22:45
and sometimes through military action.
520
1353350
3116
而且有時候通過軍事活動。
22:48
The other thing I would say is that
521
1356466
2893
另外一件我要說的事是
22:51
your idea of nuclear or chem-bio-threat
522
1359359
5266
你的有關核或者生化威脅的觀點
22:56
is not at all far-fetched
523
1364625
1516
並不是那麼牽強，
22:58
and in fact there are a number of groups
524
1366141
1738
而且事實上有幾個組
22:59
who have for several years expressed interest
525
1367879
1887
多年來表達了興趣
23:01
and desire in obtaining those capabilities
526
1369766
2540
和意願想要得到這些能力
23:04
and work towards that.
527
1372306
1760
並且實現這些能力。
23:06
CA: It's also been said that,
528
1374066
1576
克里斯：同樣，
23:07
of those 54 alleged incidents,
529
1375642
2700
在這 54 起所謂的事故中，
23:10
that as few as zero of them
530
1378342
1848
幾乎零個
23:12
were actually anything to do
531
1380190
1062
和那些斯諾登揭發
23:13
with these controversial programs
532
1381252
1847
的有爭議的案子
23:15
that Mr. Snowden revealed,
533
1383099
3732
有任何關係，
23:18
that it was basically through
other forms of intelligence,
other forms of intelligence,
534
1386831
3917
那是本質上通過其他形式獲得的情報，
23:22
that you're looking for a needle in a haystack,
535
1390748
2890
你在海裡撈針，
23:25
and the effects of these programs,
536
1393638
1562
這些項目的作用，
23:27
these controversial programs,
537
1395200
1031
這些有爭議的項目，
23:28
is just to add hay to the stack,
538
1396231
2072
只是給大海增加水滴，
23:30
not to really find the needle.
539
1398303
1580
並不是去找到針。
23:31
The needle was found by other methods.
540
1399883
2082
針是通過其他方式找到的。
23:33
Isn't there something to that?
541
1401965
4124
是不是類似的意思？
23:38
RL: No, there's actually two programs
542
1406089
2408
理查德：不，其實有兩個項目
23:40
that are typically implicated in that discussion.
543
1408497
2417
通常在那個討論中涉及到。
23:42
One is the section 215 program,
544
1410914
2478
一個是 215 項目，
23:45
the U.S. telephony metadata program,
545
1413392
2978
美國電話元數據項目，
23:48
and the other one is
546
1416370
2040
另一個是
23:50
popularly called the PRISM program,
547
1418410
1594
流行的叫法是棱鏡項目，
23:52
and it's actually section 702
of the FISA Amendment Act.
of the FISA Amendment Act.
548
1420004
3248
實際上是外國情報監視法修正案 702 條。
23:55
But the 215 program
549
1423252
4190
但是 215 項目
23:59
is only relevant to threats
550
1427442
1727
只和那些
24:01
that are directed against the United States,
551
1429169
2259
針對美國的威脅有關，
24:03
and there have been a dozen threats
552
1431428
2900
有一些威脅
24:06
where that was implicated.
553
1434328
1315
是有牽連的。
24:07
Now what you'll see people say publicly
554
1435643
3189
現在你看到人們公開說
24:10
is there is no "but for" case,
555
1438832
2036
並沒有一個「如果不是」的例子，
24:12
and so there is no case where, but for that,
556
1440868
3813
所以也沒有例子，如果不是如此，
24:16
the threat would have happened.
557
1444681
1701
襲擊就會發生。
24:18
But that actually indicates a lack of understanding
558
1446382
4207
實際上這表明一種缺乏對
24:22
of how terrorist investigations actually work.
559
1450589
5117
恐怖調查是怎麼工作的瞭解。
24:27
You think about on television,
560
1455706
1478
你看電視的時候想，
24:29
you watch a murder mystery.
561
1457184
1332
你看兇手揭祕。
24:30
What do you start with? You start with a body,
562
1458516
1530
你從何開始？從屍體開始，
24:32
and then they work their way
from there to solve the crime.
from there to solve the crime.
563
1460046
2236
接着他們一步步地從那破解犯罪。
24:34
We're actually starting well before that,
564
1462282
1531
我們實際上早在那之前就開始了，
24:35
hopefully before there are any bodies,
565
1463813
1501
希望早在有任何屍體之前，
24:37
and we're trying to build the case for
566
1465314
2433
並且我們在試著建立案例，
24:39
who the people are, what they're trying to do,
567
1467747
2430
這些人是誰，他們想要做什麼，
24:42
and that involves massive amounts of information.
568
1470177
2850
這些包含大量信息。
24:45
Think of it is as mosaic,
569
1473027
1481
把它想象成馬賽克，
24:46
and it's hard to say that any one piece of a mosaic
570
1474508
2162
很難說任何一塊馬賽克
24:48
was necessary to building the mosaic,
571
1476670
2632
是整個馬賽克必要的構成，
24:51
but to build the complete picture,
572
1479302
1729
但為了構成一個整體畫面，
24:53
you need to have all the pieces of information.
573
1481031
1965
你需要所有信息碎片。
24:54
On the other, the non-U.S.-related
threats out of those 54,
threats out of those 54,
574
1482996
3105
另一方面，在 54 起事件中
和跟美國威脅無關的事件裡，
和跟美國威脅無關的事件裡，
24:58
the other 42 of them,
575
1486101
3189
另外 42 個，
25:01
the PRISM program was hugely relevant to that,
576
1489290
4630
棱鏡項目和這些有著巨大關聯，
25:05
and in fact was material in contributing
577
1493920
2986
事實上是幫助
25:08
to stopping those attacks.
578
1496906
1882
阻止了這些襲擊的基礎。
25:10
CA: Snowden said two days ago
579
1498788
1337
克里斯：斯諾登兩天前說
25:12
that terrorism has always been
580
1500125
3370
恐怖主義一直
25:15
what is called in the intelligence world
581
1503495
2128
被情報世界稱為
25:17
"a cover for action,"
582
1505623
1546
「行為的掩飾」，
25:19
that it's something that,
583
1507169
1937
是一些，
25:21
because it invokes such a powerful
584
1509106
1716
因為調起如此強烈
25:22
emotional response in people,
585
1510822
1839
的情緒在人民當中，
25:24
it allows the initiation of these programs
586
1512661
2634
它允許這些項目一開始
25:27
to achieve powers that an organization like yours
587
1515295
3561
獲得權力而你的組織
25:30
couldn't otherwise have.
588
1518856
1567
卻不能獲得的。
25:32
Is there any internal debate about that?
589
1520423
3452
這一點有沒有內在的爭議？
25:35
RL: Yeah.
590
1523875
1412
理查德：有的。
25:37
I mean, we debate these things all the time,
591
1525287
2000
我的意思是，我們一直在爭論這些事情，
25:39
and there is discussion that goes on
592
1527287
2759
現在一直在進行著的討論
25:42
in the executive branch
593
1530046
1921
在行政部門
25:43
and within NSA itself
594
1531967
2063
和在美國安全部門內部
25:46
and the intelligence community about
595
1534030
1655
和在情報社區有關
25:47
what's right, what's proportionate,
596
1535685
1360
什麼是對的，什麼是合適的，
25:49
what's the correct thing to do.
597
1537045
1261
什麼是正確的做法。
25:50
And it's important to note that the programs
598
1538306
1578
並且值得注意我們剛才
25:51
that we're talking about
599
1539884
1347
講過的那些項目
25:53
were all authorized by two different presidents,
600
1541231
3402
是被兩個不同的總統批准的，
25:56
two different political parties,
601
1544633
1745
兩個不同的政黨，
25:58
by Congress twice,
602
1546378
2135
被國會兩次通過，
26:00
and by federal judges 16 different times,
603
1548513
3836
而且被州法官批准16次，
26:04
and so this is not NSA running off
604
1552349
4712
所以這不是國家安全局
26:09
and doing its own thing.
605
1557061
1463
自作主張。
26:10
This is a legitimate activity
606
1558524
2448
這是一個合法的行為
26:12
of the United States foreign government
607
1560972
2518
在美國外交政府
26:15
that was agreed to by all the branches
608
1563490
2175
並且被所有美國政府
26:17
of the United States government,
609
1565665
1984
機構同意，
26:19
and President Madison would have been proud.
610
1567649
3049
而且麥迪遜總統也會為之驕傲的。
26:22
CA: And yet, when congressmen discovered
611
1570698
4089
克里斯：然而，當國會議員發現
26:26
what was actually being done
with that authorization,
with that authorization,
612
1574787
2230
事實上這些行為是合法的，
26:29
many of them were completely shocked.
613
1577017
2869
他們當中絕大多數相當震驚。
26:31
Or do you think that is not a legitimate reaction,
614
1579886
3346
還是你認為這不是一個合法的反應，
26:35
that it's only because it's now come out publicly,
615
1583232
2105
這只是因為現在它完全被曝光了，
26:37
that they really knew exactly what you were doing
616
1585337
3102
他們事實上完全知道你用給予的權利
26:40
with the powers they had granted you?
617
1588439
2336
所做的一切？
26:42
RL: Congress is a big body.
618
1590775
1674
理查德：國會是個大的整體。
26:44
There's 535 of them,
619
1592449
1977
有 535 人，
26:46
and they change out frequently,
620
1594426
2141
他們經常變化，
26:48
in the case of the House, every two years,
621
1596567
1858
比如眾議院 ，每兩年，
26:50
and I think that the NSA provided
622
1598425
3776
我認為美國安全部提供
26:54
all the relevant information
to our oversight committees,
to our oversight committees,
623
1602201
3137
所有相關信息給我們的監督委員會，
26:57
and then the dissemination of that information
624
1605338
2278
然後這些信息的傳播
26:59
by the oversight committees throughout Congress
625
1607616
1899
由監督委員會通過議會
27:01
is something that they manage.
626
1609515
2634
是他們管理的。
27:04
I think I would say that Congress members
627
1612149
4856
我認為我可以說議會成員
27:09
had the opportunity to make themselves aware,
628
1617005
3831
有機會讓他們自己意識到，
27:12
and in fact a significant number of them,
629
1620836
1869
然而事實上他們中的一部分人，
27:14
the ones who are assigned oversight responsibility,
630
1622705
3458
那些有監督責任的人，
27:18
did have the ability to do that.
631
1626163
1174
事實上是有能力那麼做的。
27:19
And you've actually had the chairs of
those committees say that in public.
those committees say that in public.
632
1627337
3938
而且你確實讓這些委員的主席發表公眾言論。
27:23
CA: Now, you mentioned the
threat of cyberattacks,
threat of cyberattacks,
633
1631275
1557
克里斯：那麼，你提到了網路攻擊，
27:24
and I don't think anyone in this room would disagree
634
1632832
2167
我不認為房間裡的人會不同意，
27:26
that that is a huge concern,
635
1634999
1890
這是一個很大的問題，
27:28
but do you accept that there's a tradeoff
636
1636889
1834
但是你是否接受這有一個權衡
27:30
between offensive and defensive strategies,
637
1638723
2411
有關進攻和防守策略，
27:33
and that it's possible that the very measures taken
638
1641134
2825
並且有可能這種衡量造成
27:35
to, "weaken encryption,"
639
1643959
2669
「減弱加密」，
27:38
and allow yourself to find the bad guys,
640
1646628
2153
並且允許你自己找到那些壞人，
27:40
might also open the door to forms of cyberattack?
641
1648781
4273
同樣也打開了網絡攻擊的大門？
27:45
RL: So I think two things.
642
1653054
2843
理查德·：所以我認為兩件事。
27:47
One is, you said weaken encryption. I didn't.
643
1655897
3847
第一，你說減弱加密。我沒有。
27:51
And the other one is that
644
1659744
5126
另外一件事就是
27:56
the NSA has both of those missions,
645
1664870
2776
美國安全局擁有這兩種使命，
27:59
and we are heavily biased towards defense,
646
1667646
2281
而且我們強烈偏向於防禦，
28:01
and, actually, the vulnerabilities that we find
647
1669927
3517
而且，事實上，我們在大多數壓倒性的例子中
28:05
in the overwhelming majority of cases,
648
1673444
2101
發現了漏洞，
28:07
we disclose to the people who are responsible
649
1675545
2773
我們紕漏那些負責人
28:10
for manufacturing or developing those products.
650
1678318
3363
因爲他們製造或者發展了這些產品。
28:13
We have a great track record of that,
651
1681681
1383
我們有很多大量的記錄，
28:15
and we're actually working on a proposal right now
652
1683064
1986
事實上我們現在正在擬定一個提案
28:17
to be transparent and to
publish transparency reports
publish transparency reports
653
1685050
3170
變得更透明而且公開透明發表報告
28:20
in the same way that the Internet companies
654
1688220
2886
以一種和網絡公司被允許
28:23
are being allowed to publish
transparency reports for them.
transparency reports for them.
655
1691106
3867
發表他們的報告相同的方式。
28:26
We want to be more transparent about that.
656
1694973
1998
我們想要變得更透明。
28:28
So again, we eat our own dog food.
657
1696971
3129
所以又一次的，我們用自己的產品。
28:32
We use the standards, we use the products
658
1700100
2253
我們用條例，我們用那些
28:34
that we recommend,
659
1702353
2655
我們建議的產品，
28:37
and so it's in our interest
660
1705008
2295
所以這是我們的利益
28:39
to keep our communications protected
661
1707303
2638
去保護我們的交流
28:41
in the same way that other people's need to be.
662
1709941
3804
以一種人們需要的方式。
28:45
CA: Edward Snowden,
663
1713745
3190
克里斯：愛德華·斯諾登，
28:48
when, after his talk, was wandering the halls here
664
1716935
4428
當他結束了他的演講，在大廳裏
28:53
in the bot,
665
1721363
1245
遊蕩時，
28:54
and I heard him say to a couple of people,
666
1722608
2188
我聽到他和幾個人交談，
28:56
they asked him about what he thought
667
1724796
1617
他們問他對
28:58
of the NSA overall,
668
1726413
1593
美國安全局的整體評價，
29:00
and he was very complimentary about the people
669
1728006
2773
他非常喜歡和你
29:02
who work with you,
670
1730779
2021
一起工作的人，
29:04
said that it's a really
671
1732800
3923
說那是一羣
29:08
impassioned group of employees
672
1736723
1960
非常積極的員工
29:10
who are seeking to do the right thing,
673
1738683
2449
他們努力在做正確的事情，
29:13
and that the problems have come from
674
1741132
2954
那些問題只是源自
29:16
just some badly conceived policies.
675
1744086
3119
一些構思不佳的政策。
29:19
He came over certainly very reasonably and calmly.
676
1747205
4445
他看起來是相當的平靜和有條理。
29:23
He didn't come over like a crazy man.
677
1751650
2175
他看起來不像是一個瘋子。
29:25
Would you accept that at least,
678
1753825
1970
你至少能接受這一點，
29:27
even if you disagree with how he did it,
679
1755795
3016
即使你不接受他的做法，
29:30
that he has opened a debate that matters?
680
1758811
4024
他打開了一個關鍵的辯論？
29:34
RL: So I think that the discussion
681
1762835
2398
理查德：所以我認爲討論
29:37
is an important one to have.
682
1765233
1864
是有必要的。
29:39
I do not like the way that he did it.
683
1767097
3376
我不喜歡他做的方式。
29:42
I think there were a number of other ways
684
1770473
2005
我認爲有很多其他的方法
29:44
that he could have done that
685
1772478
1462
他可以選擇
29:45
that would have not endangered our people
686
1773940
3296
其他不威脅我們人民安全
29:49
and the people of other nations
687
1777236
2648
和其他人民的安全的方式
29:51
through losing visibility
688
1779884
2111
威脅可以來自與無法掌握
29:53
into what our adversaries are doing.
689
1781995
2731
我們的對手正在做什麼。
29:56
But I do think it's an important conversation.
690
1784726
2686
我認爲這是一個重要的談話。
29:59
CA: It's been reported that there's
691
1787412
1539
克里斯：有報告說
30:00
almost a difference of opinion
692
1788951
2109
你和你的同事
30:03
with you and your colleagues
693
1791060
1471
有不同的觀點
30:04
over any scenario in which
694
1792531
2053
對於任何他
30:06
he might be offered an amnesty deal.
695
1794584
2603
被大赦了的情況。
30:09
I think your boss, General Keith Alexander,
696
1797187
2711
我認爲你的上司，大將 Keith Alexander
30:11
has said that that would be a terrible example
697
1799898
1986
曾經說過對於其他人來說，
30:13
for others;
698
1801884
1465
那將是一個非常槽糕的例子。
30:15
you can't negotiate with someone
699
1803349
1657
你不能和其他人談判
30:17
who's broken the law in that way.
700
1805006
2008
如果他們像那樣違反了法律。
30:19
But you've been quoted as saying that,
701
1807014
2009
但是你一直引述說，
30:21
if Snowden could prove that he was surrendering
702
1809023
3208
如果斯諾登可以鄧明他屈服
30:24
all undisclosed documents,
703
1812231
1796
於未公開的文件，
30:26
that a deal maybe should be considered.
704
1814027
2239
那個交易也應該被考慮進來。
30:28
Do you still think that?
705
1816266
2970
你還是這麼認爲的嗎？
30:31
RL: Yeah, so actually,
706
1819236
1518
理查德：是的，確實如此，
30:32
this is my favorite thing about
that "60 Minutes" interview
that "60 Minutes" interview
707
1820754
2583
這是我最喜歡《60分鐘》訪談的地方
30:35
was all the misquotes that came from that.
708
1823337
1712
來自所有錯誤的引用。
30:37
What I actually said, in
response to a question about,
response to a question about,
709
1825049
2915
我實際上說的是，
在回答記者提問關於，
在回答記者提問關於，
30:39
would you entertain any discussions
710
1827964
1812
你會招待對減輕
30:41
of mitigating action against Snowden,
711
1829776
6385
斯諾登行爲的任何討論，
30:48
I said, yeah, it's worth a conversation.
712
1836161
1832
我說，是的，這是值得討論的。
30:49
This is something that the attorney general
713
1837993
1635
這也是一般美國律師
30:51
of the United States and the president also
714
1839628
1930
和總統
30:53
actually have both talked about this,
715
1841558
1538
事實上都談過，
30:55
and I defer to the attorney general,
716
1843096
1369
而且我服從大多數的律師，
30:56
because this is his lane.
717
1844465
1547
因爲這是他的軌道。
30:58
But there is a strong tradition
718
1846012
2509
但是有一個堅固的傳統
31:00
in American jurisprudence
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在美國法理學上
31:03
of having discussions with people
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為了從中得到什麼
31:08
who have been charged with crimes in order to,
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對政府有利的信息
31:10
if it benefits the government,
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鼓勵與被指控犯罪的人們
31:11
to get something out of that,
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進行討論。
31:14
that there's always room for that kind of discussion.
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這裏總是有可以討論的空間。
31:16
So I'm not presupposing any outcome,
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所以我不提前支持什麼結果，
31:18
but there is always room for discussion.
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但是一直是有討論空間的。
31:22
CA: To a lay person it seems like
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克里斯：以一個外行人看
31:23
he has certain things to offer the U.S.,
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他給美國帶來了點東西，
31:27
the government, you, others,
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也給政府、你還有其他人帶來了點東西，
31:28
in terms of putting things right
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他做對了事情
31:30
and helping figure out a smarter policy,
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幫助想出更好的政策，
31:32
a smarter way forward for the future.
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想出了面對未來更好的方式。
31:38
Do you see, has that kind of possibility
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你看，這些可能性
31:41
been entertained at all?
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已經被接受了嗎？
31:43
RL: So that's out of my lane.
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理查德：這不是我的範圍。
31:45
That's not an NSA thing.
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也不是美國安全局的事。
31:46
That would be a Department of Justice
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這是律政司
31:48
sort of discussion.
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要討論的。
31:51
I'll defer to them.
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我會推給他們。
31:54
CA: Rick, when Ed Snowden ended his talk,
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克里斯： 理查，當斯諾登結束了他的講話，
31:57
I offered him the chance to
share an idea worth spreading.
share an idea worth spreading.
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我給了他一個分享想法的機會。
32:01
What would be your idea worth spreading
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你認爲什麼想法是值得分享的
32:02
for this group?
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對這些人？
32:05
RL: So I think, learn the facts.
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1992
理查德：我認爲，瞭解事實。
32:07
This is a really important conversation,
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這是一個非常重要的談話，
32:09
and it impacts, it's not just NSA,
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它有影響力，不光是美國安全局，
32:11
it's not just the government,
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不光是政府，
32:13
it's you, it's the Internet companies.
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是你，是這些網路公司。
32:16
The issue of privacy and personal data
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隱私和個人信息的問題
32:19
is much bigger than just the government,
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遠比政府大得多，
32:20
and so learn the facts.
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所以要學會瞭解事實。
32:22
Don't rely on headlines,
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不要依靠頭條新聞，
32:24
don't rely on sound bites,
753
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不要依靠丁點的聲音，
32:25
don't rely on one-sided conversations.
754
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不要依靠片面的談話。
32:28
So that's the idea, I think, worth spreading.
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就是這個思想，我認爲，值得傳播。
32:31
We have a sign, a badge tab,
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我們有一個標誌，一個徽章標籤，
32:34
we wear badges at work with lanyards,
757
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我們帶着徽章掛鏈上班，
32:36
and if I could make a plug,
758
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如果我可以做一個插件，
32:38
my badge lanyard at work says, "Dallas Cowboys."
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我工作時的徽章掛鏈會寫着，《達拉斯牛仔》。
32:41
Go Dallas.
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達拉斯加油。
32:44
I've just alienated half the audience, I know.
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我剛剛疏遠了一半的觀衆，我知道。
32:47
So the lanyard that our people
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所以做著加密解析工作的
32:51
who work in the organization
763
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在這個組織里工作的我們的人
32:52
that does our crypto-analytic work
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都有個掛鏈，
32:55
have a tab that says, "Look at the data."
765
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1941
上面有個標籤寫着「看看這數據。」
32:57
So that's the idea worth spreading.
766
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1536
這就是值得傳播的想法。
32:58
Look at the data.
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2249
看看數據。
33:01
CA: Rick, it took a certain amount of courage,
768
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克里斯：理查，這需要相當的勇氣，
33:03
I think, actually, to come and speak openly
769
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我認爲，實際上，來和這些觀衆
33:06
to this group.
770
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1254
暢所欲言。
33:07
It's not something the NSA
has done a lot of in the past,
has done a lot of in the past,
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這不是美國安全局曾經做過很多的，
33:10
and plus the technology has been challenging.
772
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而且加上科技也更加具有挑戰性。
33:13
We truly appreciate you doing that
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我們很感激
33:15
and sharing in this very important conversation.
774
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你能和我們分享這次重要的談話。
33:17
Thank you so much.
775
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非常感謝你。
33:19
RL: Thanks, Chris.
776
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1939
理查德：謝謝克里斯。
33:21
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Richard Ledgett - Deputy director, NSARichard Ledgett is deputy director and senior civilian leader of the National Security Agency. He acts as the agency’s chief operating officer, responsible for guiding and directing studies, operations and policy.
Why you should listen
Richard Ledgett began his NSA career in 1988 and has served in operational, management, and technical leadership positions at the branch, division, office, and group levels. Now, think of him as the COO of the NSA, guiding and directing studies, operations and policy. From 2012 to 2013 he was the Director of the NSA/CSS Threat Operations Center, responsible for round-the-clock cryptologic activities to discover and counter adversary cyber efforts. Prior to NTOC he served in several positions from 2010 to 2012 in the Office of the Director of National Intelligence in both the collection and cyber mission areas. He was the first National Intelligence Manager for Cyber, serving as principal advisor to the Director of National Intelligence on all cyber matters, leading development of the Unified Intelligence Strategy for Cyber, and coordinating cyber activities across the Intelligence Community (IC). Previous positions at NSA include Deputy Director for Analysis and Production (2009-2010), Deputy Director for Data Acquisition (2006-2009), Assistant Deputy Director for Data Acquisition (2005-2006), and Chief, NSA/CSS Pacific (2002-2005). He also served in a joint IC operational activity, and as an instructor and course developer at the National Cryptologic School.
He led the NSA Media Leaks Task Force from June 2013 to January 2014, and was responsible for integrating and overseeing the totality of NSA’s efforts surrounding the unauthorized disclosures of classified information by a former NSA affiliate.
Richard Ledgett | Speaker | TED.com