TED2015
Esther Perel: Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved
Esther Perel: Promišljanje o nevjeri ... govor za svakoga tko je ikada volio
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Nevjera je krajnja izdaja, no mora li to tako biti? Terapeutkinja za veze Esther Perel proučava zašto ljudi varaju i otkriva zašto su afere tako traumatične - ugrožavaju našu emocionalnu sigurnost. Kako bilo, ona u nevjeri vidi i nešto neočekivano - izraz čežnje i gubitka. Ovo je nešto što mora pogledati svatko tko je ikad varao ili bio prevaren ili svatko tko samo želi sagledati veze iz druge perspektive.
Esther Perel - Relationship therapist
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life. Full bio
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Why do we cheat?
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Zašto varamo?
00:16
And why do happy people cheat?
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Zašto varaju i oni koji su sretni?
00:20
And when we say "infidelity,"
what exactly do we mean?
what exactly do we mean?
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A kad kažemo "preljub",
na što točno mislimo?
na što točno mislimo?
00:26
Is it a hookup, a love story,
paid sex, a chat room,
paid sex, a chat room,
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Je li to afera, ljubavna priča,
plaćeni za seks, chatanje,
plaćeni za seks, chatanje,
00:32
a massage with a happy ending?
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masaža sa sretnim završetkom?
00:36
Why do we think that men cheat
out of boredom and fear of intimacy,
out of boredom and fear of intimacy,
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Zašto mislimo da muškarci
varaju iz dosade i straha od intimnosti,
varaju iz dosade i straha od intimnosti,
00:41
but women cheat out of loneliness
and hunger for intimacy?
and hunger for intimacy?
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a žene iz usamljenosti
i želje za intimnosti?
i želje za intimnosti?
00:47
And is an affair always
the end of a relationship?
the end of a relationship?
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Znači li prijevara
kraj veze baš svaki put?
kraj veze baš svaki put?
00:53
For the past 10 years,
I have traveled the globe
I have traveled the globe
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Zadnjih deset godina putovala sam svijetom
00:56
and worked extensively
with hundreds of couples
with hundreds of couples
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i intenzivno radila sa stotinama parova
00:59
who have been shattered by infidelity.
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koje je nevjera slomila.
01:02
There is one simple act of transgression
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Ima jedan jednostavan prijestup
01:06
that can rob a couple
of their relationship,
of their relationship,
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koji ljubavni par može stajati veze,
01:11
their happiness and their
very identity: an affair.
very identity: an affair.
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zajedničke sreće, pa čak
i samog identiteta - prijevara.
i samog identiteta - prijevara.
01:15
And yet, this extremely common
act is so poorly understood.
act is so poorly understood.
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No taj iznimno uobičajen čin
često se pogrešno tumači.
često se pogrešno tumači.
01:22
So this talk is for anyone
who has ever loved.
who has ever loved.
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Ovaj je govor namijenjen
svakome tko je ikada volio.
svakome tko je ikada volio.
01:29
Adultery has existed
since marriage was invented,
since marriage was invented,
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Preljubi postoje otkako je brakova,
01:33
and so, too, the taboo against it.
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a isto toliko dugo postoje
i tabui vezani uz njih.
i tabui vezani uz njih.
01:37
In fact, infidelity has a tenacity
that marriage can only envy,
that marriage can only envy,
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Preljub braku daje
otpornost vrijednu divljenja,
otpornost vrijednu divljenja,
01:42
so much so, that this is
the only commandment
the only commandment
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to je jedina zapovijed
01:46
that is repeated twice in the Bible:
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koja se u Bibliji dvaput spominje:
01:50
once for doing it, and once
just for thinking about it.
just for thinking about it.
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jednom kao čin, drugi put kao misao.
01:54
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
01:56
So how do we reconcile
what is universally forbidden,
what is universally forbidden,
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Kako pomiriti nešto što je općezabranjeno,
02:00
yet universally practiced?
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i općeprakticirano?
02:05
Now, throughout history, men
practically had a license to cheat
practically had a license to cheat
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Kroz povijest muškarci
su gotovo imali dozvolu varati
su gotovo imali dozvolu varati
02:10
with little consequence,
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uz vrlo malo posljedica
02:12
and supported by a host
of biological and evolutionary theories
of biological and evolutionary theories
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te imaju mnoštvo bioloških
i evolucijskih teorija
i evolucijskih teorija
02:16
that justified their need to roam,
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koje opravdavaju
njihovu potrebu za skitnjom.
njihovu potrebu za skitnjom.
02:19
so the double standard
is as old as adultery itself.
is as old as adultery itself.
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Dakle, dvostruka su mjerila
stara koliko i sam preljub.
stara koliko i sam preljub.
02:24
But who knows what's really going on
under the sheets there, right?
under the sheets there, right?
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Ali tko zna što se zaista događa
pod plahtama, zar ne?
pod plahtama, zar ne?
02:29
Because when it comes to sex,
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Kad se radi o seksu,
02:31
the pressure for men
is to boast and to exaggerate,
is to boast and to exaggerate,
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od muškaraca se očekuje
da likuju i pretjeruju,
da likuju i pretjeruju,
02:35
but the pressure for women
is to hide, minimize and deny,
is to hide, minimize and deny,
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a od žena da se skrivaju,
umanjuju važnost i niječu,
umanjuju važnost i niječu,
02:41
which isn't surprising when you consider
that there are still nine countries
that there are still nine countries
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što i nije tako čudno kad razmislimo
o tome da postoji još devet država
o tome da postoji još devet država
02:45
where women can be killed for straying.
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u kojima se žene ubija zbog prijevare.
02:49
Now, monogamy used to be
one person for life.
one person for life.
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Monogamija je nekoć značila:
"jedna osoba do kraja života".
"jedna osoba do kraja života".
02:54
Today, monogamy is one person at a time.
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U današnje vrijeme znači:
"jedna po jedna osoba".
"jedna po jedna osoba".
02:58
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
03:00
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
03:04
I mean, many of you probably have said,
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Mnogi od vas vjerojatno su jednom rekli
03:06
"I am monogamous in all my relationships."
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kako su monogamni u svim svojim vezama.
03:09
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
03:12
We used to marry,
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Nekoć smo se ženili
03:14
and had sex for the first time.
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i po prvi put spavali s nekim.
03:16
But now we marry,
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Sad se ženimo
03:18
and we stop having sex with others.
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i prestajemo spavati s drugima.
03:21
The fact is that monogamy
had nothing to do with love.
had nothing to do with love.
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Monogamija nije imala veze s ljubavi.
03:26
Men relied on women's fidelity
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Muškarci su računali na ženinu vjernost
03:28
in order to know whose children these are,
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kako bi znali čija su djeca
03:31
and who gets the cows when I die.
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i kome će pripasti krave kad umru.
03:36
Now, everyone wants to know
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Svi žele znati
03:38
what percentage of people cheat.
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koliko ljudi vara.
03:40
I've been asked that question
since I arrived at this conference.
since I arrived at this conference.
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To me ispituju još otkako
sam stigla na ovu konferenciju.
sam stigla na ovu konferenciju.
03:43
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
03:46
It applies to you.
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Ovo se odnosi i na vas.
03:48
But the definition of infidelity
keeps on expanding:
keeps on expanding:
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Definicija preljuba
neprestano se proširuje:
neprestano se proširuje:
03:52
sexting, watching porn, staying
secretly active on dating apps.
secretly active on dating apps.
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sexting, pornići, tajno sudjelovanje
na portalima za upoznavanje.
na portalima za upoznavanje.
03:58
So because there is no
universally agreed-upon definition
universally agreed-upon definition
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Budući da nema jedinstvene definicije
koju svi prihvaćaju
koju svi prihvaćaju
04:02
of what even constitutes an infidelity,
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o tome što se smatra nevjerom,
04:05
estimates vary widely,
from 26 percent to 75 percent.
from 26 percent to 75 percent.
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procjene uvelike variraju od 26 % do 75 %,
04:12
But on top of it, we are
walking contradictions.
walking contradictions.
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a još smo i hodajuća proturječja -
04:16
So 95 percent of us will say
that it is terribly wrong
that it is terribly wrong
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95 % nas kaže da je užasno pogrešno
04:19
for our partner to lie
about having an affair,
about having an affair,
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da nam partner laže o aferi,
04:22
but just about the same
amount of us will say
amount of us will say
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a gotovo isti postotak nas govori
04:25
that that's exactly what we
would do if we were having one.
would do if we were having one.
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da bismo i mi radili upravo to
kad bismo mi bili ti koji varaju.
kad bismo mi bili ti koji varaju.
04:28
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
04:31
Now, I like this definition
of an affair --
of an affair --
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Sviđa mi se ova definicija afere -
04:35
it brings together the three key elements:
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ujedinjuje tri ključna elementa:
04:39
a secretive relationship,
which is the core structure of an affair;
which is the core structure of an affair;
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tajna veza, koja je ključan dio afere;
04:45
an emotional connection
to one degree or another;
to one degree or another;
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emocionalna veza određenog stupnja;
04:49
and a sexual alchemy.
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i seksualna alkemija.
04:52
And alchemy is the key word here,
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"Alkemija" je ovdje ključna riječ
04:55
because the erotic frisson is such that
the kiss that you only imagine giving,
the kiss that you only imagine giving,
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jer su erotski trnci takvi da
samo zamišljanje poljupca
samo zamišljanje poljupca
05:02
can be as powerful and as enchanting
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može biti jednako snažno i čudesno
05:05
as hours of actual lovemaking.
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kao i sati pravog vođenja ljubavi.
05:09
As Marcel Proust said,
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Kao što je Proust rekao,
05:11
it's our imagination that is responsible
for love, not the other person.
for love, not the other person.
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za ljubav je kriva naša mašta,
a ne druga osoba.
a ne druga osoba.
05:17
So it's never been easier to cheat,
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Nikad nije bilo lakše varati,
05:21
and it's never been more
difficult to keep a secret.
difficult to keep a secret.
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a istovremeno nikad
nije bilo teže prevaru zatajiti.
nije bilo teže prevaru zatajiti.
05:25
And never has infidelity exacted
such a psychological toll.
such a psychological toll.
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Nikad prije prevara nije imala
toliku psihološku cijenu.
toliku psihološku cijenu.
05:31
When marriage was an economic enterprise,
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Kad je brak bio ekonomska računica,
05:35
infidelity threatened
our economic security.
our economic security.
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nevjera je ugrožavala ekonomsku sigurnost,
05:39
But now that marriage
is a romantic arrangement,
is a romantic arrangement,
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ali otkako je brak romantični dogovor,
05:41
infidelity threatens
our emotional security.
our emotional security.
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prijevara ugrožava
našu emocionalnu sigurnost.
našu emocionalnu sigurnost.
05:45
Ironically, we used to turn to adultery --
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Ironično je da je prijevara nekoć
05:50
that was the space where
we sought pure love.
we sought pure love.
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bila prostor u kojem smo
tražili pravu ljubav,
tražili pravu ljubav,
05:53
But now that we seek love in marriage,
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a otkako ljubav tražimo u braku,
05:55
adultery destroys it.
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prijevara uništava tu ljubav.
05:58
Now, there are three ways that I think
infidelity hurts differently today.
infidelity hurts differently today.
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Postoje tri načina na koja prijevara
u današnje vrijeme drugačije boli.
u današnje vrijeme drugačije boli.
06:05
We have a romantic ideal
in which we turn to one person
in which we turn to one person
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Postoji romantični ideal
u kojemu od jedne osobe tražimo
u kojemu od jedne osobe tražimo
06:11
to fulfill an endless list of needs:
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ispunjavanje naše
beskonačno duge liste potreba:
beskonačno duge liste potreba:
06:14
to be my greatest lover, my best friend,
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najbolji ljubavnik, najbolji prijatelj,
06:18
the best parent, my trusted confidant,
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najbolji roditelj,
najveća osoba od povjerenja,
najveća osoba od povjerenja,
06:21
my emotional companion,
my intellectual equal.
my intellectual equal.
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emocionalni pratilac,
intelektualni parnjak.
intelektualni parnjak.
06:25
And I am it: I'm chosen, I'm unique,
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To sam ja: izabrana sam, jedinstvena,
06:29
I'm indispensable, I'm irreplaceable,
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prijeko potrebna, nezamjenjiva,
06:33
I'm the one.
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ja sam ona prava.
06:35
And infidelity tells me I'm not.
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A prijevara mi poručuje da nisam.
06:39
It is the ultimate betrayal.
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To je potpuna izdaja.
06:41
Infidelity shatters
the grand ambition of love.
the grand ambition of love.
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Nevjera uništava veliku ljubavnu težnju,
06:46
But if throughout history,
infidelity has always been painful,
infidelity has always been painful,
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no i kroz povijest
oduvijek je bila bolna,
oduvijek je bila bolna,
06:51
today it is often traumatic,
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u današnje je vrijeme
nerijetko traumatična
nerijetko traumatična
06:53
because it threatens our sense of self.
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jer ugrožava naš doživljaj sebe.
06:57
So my patient Fernando, he's plagued.
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Moj pacijent Fernando je pokošen.
06:59
He goes on: "I thought I knew my life.
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Govori: "Mislio sam
da poznajem svoj život,
da poznajem svoj život,
07:02
I thought I knew who you were,
who we were as a couple, who I was.
who we were as a couple, who I was.
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da poznajem nju,
nas kao par, sebe,
nas kao par, sebe,
07:06
Now, I question everything."
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a sada sve preispitujem."
07:09
Infidelity -- a violation of trust,
a crisis of identity.
a crisis of identity.
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Nevjera - narušavanje povjerenja,
kriza identiteta.
kriza identiteta.
07:14
"Can I ever trust you again?" he asks.
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Pita se može li joj više vjerovati.
07:17
"Can I ever trust anyone again?"
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Može li ikome ikada više vjerovati.
07:20
And this is also what my patient
Heather is telling me,
Heather is telling me,
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To mi govori i moja pacijentica Heather
07:23
when she's talking to me
about her story with Nick.
about her story with Nick.
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kada priča svoju priču o Nicku.
07:26
Married, two kids.
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Vjenčani su, imaju dvoje djece
07:27
Nick just left on a business trip,
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i Nick je upravo otišao na poslovni put,
07:30
and Heather is playing
on his iPad with the boys,
on his iPad with the boys,
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a Heather se igra
s dečkima na njegovom iPadu.
s dečkima na njegovom iPadu.
07:34
when she sees a message
appear on the screen:
appear on the screen:
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Odjednom se na ekranu prikaže poruka:
07:37
"Can't wait to see you."
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"Jedva čekam da te vidim."
07:39
Strange, she thinks,
we just saw each other.
we just saw each other.
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Neobično, pomisli, tek smo se vidjeli.
07:42
And then another message:
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Zatim sljedeća poruka:
07:44
"Can't wait to hold you in my arms."
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"Jedva čekam da te držim u naručju."
07:47
And Heather realizes
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I Heather konačno shvati
07:50
these are not for her.
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da poruke nisu za nju.
07:52
She also tells me
that her father had affairs,
that her father had affairs,
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Ispričala mi je i kako je
i njezin otac bio nevjeran,
i njezin otac bio nevjeran,
07:55
but her mother, she found
one little receipt in the pocket,
one little receipt in the pocket,
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ali majka je pronašla
mali račun u njegovu džepu
mali račun u njegovu džepu
07:59
and a little bit of lipstick
on the collar.
on the collar.
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i malo ruža na ovratniku.
08:03
Heather, she goes digging,
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Heather krene kopati,
08:06
and she finds hundreds of messages,
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pronađe stotine razmijenjenih poruka
08:09
and photos exchanged
and desires expressed.
and desires expressed.
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i razmijenjenih slika
i izraženih želja.
i izraženih želja.
08:13
The vivid details
of Nick's two-year affair
of Nick's two-year affair
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Jasni detalji Nickove dvogodišnje afere
08:16
unfold in front of her in real time,
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pred njom se otkrivaju.
08:19
And it made me think:
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Zamislila sam se nad tim:
08:21
Affairs in the digital age
are death by a thousand cuts.
are death by a thousand cuts.
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afere u digitalno doba
smrt su od tisuća uboda,
smrt su od tisuća uboda,
08:27
But then we have another paradox
that we're dealing with these days.
that we're dealing with these days.
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no postoji još jedan paradoks
s kojim se nosimo ovih dana.
s kojim se nosimo ovih dana.
08:31
Because of this romantic ideal,
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Zbog romantičnog ideala
08:33
we are relying on our partner's
fidelity with a unique fervor.
fidelity with a unique fervor.
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jedinstvenim žarom
oslanjamo se na partnerovu vjernost,
oslanjamo se na partnerovu vjernost,
08:38
But we also have never
been more inclined to stray,
been more inclined to stray,
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ali sad kao nikad prije
imamo nagon lutati,
imamo nagon lutati,
08:42
and not because we have new desires today,
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i to ne zato što u današnje vrijeme
imamo neke nove želje,
imamo neke nove želje,
08:45
but because we live in an era
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već zato što živimo u doba
08:47
where we feel that we are
entitled to pursue our desires,
entitled to pursue our desires,
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u kojemu smatramo da je
naše pravo slijediti svoje želje
naše pravo slijediti svoje želje
08:50
because this is the culture
where I deserve to be happy.
where I deserve to be happy.
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jer je ovo kultura
u kojoj zaslužujemo biti sretni,
u kojoj zaslužujemo biti sretni,
08:55
And if we used to divorce
because we were unhappy,
because we were unhappy,
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a ukoliko smo se nekoć
rastajali jer smo bili nesretni,
rastajali jer smo bili nesretni,
08:59
today we divorce
because we could be happier.
because we could be happier.
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danas se rastajemo
jer bismo mogli biti i sretniji.
jer bismo mogli biti i sretniji.
09:03
And if divorce carried all the shame,
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Ukoliko je prije rastava bila sramotna,
09:06
today, choosing to stay when you can leave
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danas je ostajanje u braku
unatoč činjenici da možemo otići
unatoč činjenici da možemo otići
09:10
is the new shame.
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nova sramota.
09:12
So Heather, she can't talk to her friends
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Heather ne može razgovarati s prijateljima
09:15
because she's afraid that they
will judge her for still loving Nick,
will judge her for still loving Nick,
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jer se boji da će je osuđivati
jer još uvijek voli Nicka,
jer još uvijek voli Nicka,
09:18
and everywhere she turns,
she gets the same advice:
she gets the same advice:
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a od svakoga dobiva isti savjet:
09:21
Leave him. Throw the dog on the curb.
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Ostavi ga. Izbaci ga na ulicu.
09:25
And if the situation were reversed,
Nick would be in the same situation.
Nick would be in the same situation.
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Da je situacija obrnuta,
Nick bi se našao u istoj situaciji.
Nick bi se našao u istoj situaciji.
09:31
Staying is the new shame.
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Ostajanje je nova sramota.
09:35
So if we can divorce,
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Ukoliko se možemo rastati,
09:38
why do we still have affairs?
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čemu preljubi?
09:41
Now, the typical assumption
is that if someone cheats,
is that if someone cheats,
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Uobičajena pretpostavka
glasi: ukoliko netko vara,
glasi: ukoliko netko vara,
09:46
either there's something wrong
in your relationship or wrong with you.
in your relationship or wrong with you.
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nešto nije u redu ili s vezom ili s vama,
09:51
But millions of people
can't all be pathological.
can't all be pathological.
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ali radi se o milijunima, ne mogu
baš svi biti patološki slučajevi.
baš svi biti patološki slučajevi.
09:56
The logic goes like this: If you
have everything you need at home,
have everything you need at home,
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Logika nalaže: ukoliko kod kuće
dobivaš sve što ti treba,
dobivaš sve što ti treba,
10:00
then there is no need
to go looking elsewhere,
to go looking elsewhere,
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nema potrebe da tražiš negdje drugdje.
10:03
assuming that there is such
a thing as a perfect marriage
a thing as a perfect marriage
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Pretpostavimo da postoji savršen brak
10:07
that will inoculate us against wanderlust.
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koji će nas odvratiti od lutanja.
10:11
But what if passion
has a finite shelf life?
has a finite shelf life?
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Ali što ako strast ima rok trajanja?
10:15
What if there are things
that even a good relationship
that even a good relationship
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Što ako postoje stvari koje ni dobra veza
10:19
can never provide?
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ne može pružiti?
10:22
If even happy people cheat,
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Ako i sretni ljudi varaju,
10:25
what is it about?
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u čemu je stvar?
10:28
The vast majority of people
that I actually work with
that I actually work with
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Velika većina ljudi s kojima radim
10:31
are not at all chronic philanderers.
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nisu kronični ženskaroši.
10:34
They are often people who are
deeply monogamous in their beliefs,
deeply monogamous in their beliefs,
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To su ljudi koji imaju
snažna monogamna uvjerenja,
snažna monogamna uvjerenja,
10:38
and at least for their partner.
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bar po pitanju svog partnera,
10:40
But they find themselves in a conflict
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a opet se nađu u konfliktu
10:43
between their values and their behavior.
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vlastitih uvjerenja i ponašanja.
10:47
They often are people who have
actually been faithful for decades,
actually been faithful for decades,
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To su često ljudi koji su
desetljećima bili vjerni,
desetljećima bili vjerni,
10:51
but one day they cross a line
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ali jednog dana prijeđu granicu
10:54
that they never thought they would cross,
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za koju nikad nisu mislili da će prijeći
10:57
and at the risk of losing everything.
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i riskiraju da izgube sve.
11:00
But for a glimmer of what?
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1905
Za tračak čega?
11:03
Affairs are an act of betrayal,
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Prijevara je čin izdaje,
11:06
and they are also an expression
of longing and loss.
of longing and loss.
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ali i izraz čežnje i gubitka.
11:10
At the heart of an affair,
you will often find
you will often find
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U korijenu prijevare često naiđemo
11:14
a longing and a yearning
for an emotional connection,
for an emotional connection,
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4261
na želju i čežnju
za emocionalnom povezanosti,
za emocionalnom povezanosti,
11:18
for novelty, for freedom,
for autonomy, for sexual intensity,
for autonomy, for sexual intensity,
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za nečim novim, za slobodom,
autonomijom, seksualnim intenzitetom,
autonomijom, seksualnim intenzitetom,
11:24
a wish to recapture
lost parts of ourselves
lost parts of ourselves
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za željom da ponovno
pronađemo izgubljeni dio nas
pronađemo izgubljeni dio nas
11:28
or an attempt to bring back
vitality in the face of loss and tragedy.
vitality in the face of loss and tragedy.
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ili pokušaj vraćanja živosti
usprkos gubitku i tragediji.
usprkos gubitku i tragediji.
11:34
I'm thinking about
another patient of mine, Priya,
another patient of mine, Priya,
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Razmišljam o Priyi,
još jednoj svojoj pacijentici
još jednoj svojoj pacijentici
11:37
who is blissfully married,
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2616
koja je sretno udana,
11:40
loves her husband,
186
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1465
voli svoga supruga
11:41
and would never want to hurt the man.
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2383
i nikada ga ne bi povrijedila,
11:44
But she also tells me
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2118
ali rekla mi je
11:46
that she's always done
what was expected of her:
what was expected of her:
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3174
da uvijek radi ono što se od nje očekuje:
11:50
good girl, good wife, good mother,
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3680
dobra djevojka, dobra žena, dobra majka,
11:53
taking care of her immigrant parents.
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brine za svoje roditelje doseljenike.
11:56
Priya, she fell for the arborist
who removed the tree from her yard
who removed the tree from her yard
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704677
4512
Priya se zaljubila u arborista
koji je uklonio drvo iz njezinog dvorišta
koji je uklonio drvo iz njezinog dvorišta
12:01
after Hurricane Sandy.
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709214
1461
nakon uragana Sandy.
12:03
And with his truck and his tattoos,
he's quite the opposite of her.
he's quite the opposite of her.
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4563
Čista joj je suprotnost
sa svojim kamionom i tetovažama.
sa svojim kamionom i tetovažama.
12:09
But at 47, Priya's affair is about
the adolescence that she never had.
the adolescence that she never had.
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5222
Priyina afera u 47. godini vezana je
uz mladost koju nikad nije proživjela.
uz mladost koju nikad nije proživjela.
12:15
And her story highlights for me
that when we seek the gaze of another,
that when we seek the gaze of another,
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5277
Njezina mi priča pokazuje
da kad težimo tuđem pogledu,
da kad težimo tuđem pogledu,
12:21
it isn't always our partner
that we are turning away from,
that we are turning away from,
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729030
4718
ne udaljavamo se uvijek
od našeg partnera,
od našeg partnera,
12:25
but the person that
we have ourselves become.
we have ourselves become.
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733748
2837
već od osobe koja smo sami postali.
12:29
And it isn't so much that we're
looking for another person,
looking for another person,
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3546
Ne radi se toliko o tome
da tražimo drugu osobu,
da tražimo drugu osobu,
12:33
as much as we are
looking for another self.
looking for another self.
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koliko se radi o tome
da tražimo drugoga sebe.
da tražimo drugoga sebe.
12:39
Now, all over the world,
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Diljem svijeta
12:40
there is one word that people
who have affairs always tell me.
who have affairs always tell me.
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3856
ljudi koji varaju govore mi ovo -
12:45
They feel alive.
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1881
osjećaju se živo.
12:48
And they often will tell me
stories of recent losses --
stories of recent losses --
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4240
Često mi pričaju o nedavnim gubitcima -
12:52
of a parent who died,
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1855
o preminulom roditelju,
12:54
and a friend that went too soon,
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2200
o preminulom prijatelju,
12:56
and bad news at the doctor.
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1800
o lošim nalazima.
12:59
Death and mortality often live
in the shadow of an affair,
in the shadow of an affair,
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Smrt i smrtnost često
se nalaze ispod površine prijevare
se nalaze ispod površine prijevare
13:04
because they raise these questions.
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2470
jer postavljaju određena pitanja.
13:06
Is this it? Is there more?
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2904
Je li to to? Postoji li nešto više?
13:09
Am I going on for another
25 years like this?
25 years like this?
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3056
Čeka li me još 25 godina ovakvog života?
13:13
Will I ever feel that thing again?
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2492
Hoću li se ikad više ovako osjećati?
13:18
And it has led me to think
that perhaps these questions
that perhaps these questions
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4411
Zbog toga mislim da su možda ova pitanja
13:22
are the ones that propel
people to cross the line,
people to cross the line,
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3159
ona koja nas tjeraju da prijeđemo granicu
13:25
and that some affairs are
an attempt to beat back deadness,
an attempt to beat back deadness,
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3992
i da su neke afere
pokušaj da pobijedimo smrt
pokušaj da pobijedimo smrt
13:29
in an antidote to death.
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1796
protuotrovom.
13:33
And contrary to what you may think,
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Bez obzira na to što vi mislili,
13:36
affairs are way less about sex,
and a lot more about desire:
and a lot more about desire:
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804867
5036
prevare imaju manje veze
sa seksom, a puno više sa željom,
sa seksom, a puno više sa željom,
13:41
desire for attention,
desire to feel special,
desire to feel special,
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809903
3489
sa željom za pažnjom, sa željom
da se osjećamo posebno,
da se osjećamo posebno,
13:45
desire to feel important.
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813392
1916
sa željom da se osjećamo važno.
13:48
And the very structure of an affair,
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816237
3010
Sama struktura prevare,
13:51
the fact that you can
never have your lover,
never have your lover,
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2252
činjenica da ne možemo imati ljubavnika
13:53
keeps you wanting.
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821503
1435
hrani želju.
13:54
That in itself is a desire machine,
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3021
To je stroj za želju
13:57
because the incompleteness, the ambiguity,
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825959
2788
koji zbog nedovršenosti, nejasnosti,
14:00
keeps you wanting
that which you can't have.
that which you can't have.
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2775
hrani želju za onim što ne možemo imati.
14:05
Now some of you probably think
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833641
1536
Neki od vas vjerojatno misle
14:07
that affairs don't happen
in open relationships,
in open relationships,
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3630
da se prevare ne događaju
u otvorenim vezama,
u otvorenim vezama,
14:10
but they do.
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1191
ali događaju se.
14:12
First of all, the conversation
about monogamy is not the same
about monogamy is not the same
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3130
Kao prvo, priča o monogamiji nije ista
14:15
as the conversation about infidelity.
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2181
kao i priča o nevjeri,
14:18
But the fact is that it seems
that even when we have
that even when we have
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3491
ali čini se da čak i kad možemo
14:21
the freedom to have other sexual partners,
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2673
slobodno birati druge seksualne partnere,
14:24
we still seem to be lured
by the power of the forbidden,
by the power of the forbidden,
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852632
4088
još nas uvijek mami moć zabranjenog voća.
14:28
that if we do that which
we are not supposed to do,
we are not supposed to do,
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3487
Ukoliko napravimo ono što ne bismo smjeli,
14:32
then we feel like we are really
doing what we want to.
doing what we want to.
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860207
2799
osjećamo se kao da radimo
ono što uistinu želimo.
ono što uistinu želimo.
14:37
And I've also told
quite a few of my patients
quite a few of my patients
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3604
Mnogim sam svojim pacijentima rekla
14:40
that if they could bring
into their relationships
into their relationships
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4601
da kada bi u svoje veze unijeli
14:45
one tenth of the boldness,
the imagination and the verve
the imagination and the verve
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873536
3631
desetinu smjelosti, mašte i elana
14:49
that they put into their affairs,
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1712
koji ulažu u afere,
14:50
they probably would never need to see me.
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2245
vjerojatno mi ne bi
imali potrebu dolaziti.
imali potrebu dolaziti.
14:53
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
14:56
So how do we heal from an affair?
243
884362
2285
Kako se oporaviti od prijevare?
15:00
Desire runs deep.
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1919
Želja je jaka.
15:02
Betrayal runs deep.
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1871
Izdaja je jaka.
15:05
But it can be healed.
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1555
Ali može se izliječiti.
15:07
And some affairs are death knells
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2921
A neke su prijevare posmrtno zvono
15:10
for relationships that were
already dying on the vine.
already dying on the vine.
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vezama koje su već bile na umoru,
15:14
But others will jolt us
into new possibilities.
into new possibilities.
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3016
no neke će nas druge
osvijestiti za neke nove mogućnosti.
osvijestiti za neke nove mogućnosti.
15:17
The fact is, the majority of couples
250
905953
1983
Većina parova
15:19
who have experienced
affairs stay together.
affairs stay together.
251
907936
2214
koji su doživjeli prevare ostaju zajedno.
15:22
But some of them will merely survive,
252
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2633
Neki od njih jedva prežive,
15:25
and others will actually be able
to turn a crisis into an opportunity.
to turn a crisis into an opportunity.
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4704
a drugi tu krizu pretvore u priliku,
15:30
They'll be able to turn this
into a generative experience.
into a generative experience.
254
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3643
to pretvore u proizvodno iskustvo,
15:34
And I'm actually thinking even
more so for the deceived partner,
more so for the deceived partner,
255
922484
3714
mislim da je to čak točnije
za prevarenu stranu
za prevarenu stranu
15:38
who will often say,
256
926222
1336
koja često kaže:
15:39
"You think I didn't want more?
257
927558
1807
"Misliš da ja nisam htio nešto više?
15:41
But I'm not the one who did it."
258
929365
1842
No nisam."
15:43
But now that the affair is exposed,
259
931968
2142
Kad se prijevara otkrije,
15:46
they, too, get to claim more,
260
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2134
i oni imaju pravo tražiti više
15:48
and they no longer have
to uphold the status quo
to uphold the status quo
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2642
i više ne moraju održavati status quo
15:50
that may not have been working
for them that well, either.
for them that well, either.
262
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2914
od kojeg ionako možda
nisu imali neke prevelike koristi.
nisu imali neke prevelike koristi.
15:56
I've noticed that a lot of couples,
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2889
Primijetila sam da jako puno parova
15:59
in the immediate aftermath of an affair,
264
947110
2141
odmah nakon afere
16:01
because of this new disorder
that may actually lead to a new order,
that may actually lead to a new order,
265
949251
4336
zbog tog nereda
koji može dovesti do novog reda
koji može dovesti do novog reda
16:05
will have depths of conversations
with honesty and openness
with honesty and openness
266
953587
3582
vode duboke, iskrene i otvorene razgovore
16:09
that they haven't had in decades.
267
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1655
kakve nisu vodili desetljećima,
16:11
And, partners who were
sexually indifferent
sexually indifferent
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959743
2937
a partneri koji su bili
seksualno ravnodušni
seksualno ravnodušni
16:14
find themselves suddenly
so lustfully voracious,
so lustfully voracious,
269
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2599
odjednom postanu prepuni požude
16:17
they don't know where it's coming from.
270
965279
2535
za koju ne znaju odakle dolazi.
16:20
Something about the fear
of loss will rekindle desire,
of loss will rekindle desire,
271
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3953
Ima nešto u strahu od gubitka
što ponovno rasplamsa staru čežnju
što ponovno rasplamsa staru čežnju
16:24
and make way for an entirely
new kind of truth.
new kind of truth.
272
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3319
i otvara mjesto nekoj sasvim novoj istini.
16:30
So when an affair is exposed,
273
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2871
Kad se afera razotkrije,
16:33
what are some of the specific things
that couples can do?
that couples can do?
274
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3161
što parovi mogu učiniti?
16:38
We know from trauma that healing begins
275
986133
4071
Znamo da oporavak počinje
16:42
when the perpetrator
acknowledges their wrongdoing.
acknowledges their wrongdoing.
276
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3992
kad počinitelj prizna svoju grešku.
16:47
So for the partner who had the affair,
277
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3711
Dakle, partner koji je imao aferu,
16:51
for Nick,
278
999050
1532
Nick,
16:52
one thing is to end the affair,
279
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1805
jedna je stvar prekinuti je,
16:54
but the other is the essential,
important act of expressing
important act of expressing
280
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4722
ali od toga je važniji čin izražavanja
16:59
guilt and remorse for hurting his wife.
281
1007109
3206
krivnje i pokajanja
zbog toga što je povrijedio ženu.
zbog toga što je povrijedio ženu.
17:02
But the truth is
282
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1375
No,
17:04
that I have noticed that quite a lot
of people who have affairs
of people who have affairs
283
1012264
3101
primijetila sam da se
jako puno ljudi koji su prevarili
jako puno ljudi koji su prevarili
17:07
may feel terribly guilty
for hurting their partner,
for hurting their partner,
284
1015365
3098
osjeća užasno jer su povrijedili partnera,
17:10
but they don't feel guilty
for the experience of the affair itself.
for the experience of the affair itself.
285
1018463
3213
ali ne osjećaju se krivo
zbog samog iskustva afere,
zbog samog iskustva afere,
17:14
And that distinction is important.
286
1022135
1841
a to je važna razlika.
17:17
And Nick, he needs to hold
vigil for the relationship.
vigil for the relationship.
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Nick mora paziti na vezu.
17:21
He needs to become, for a while,
the protector of the boundaries.
the protector of the boundaries.
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Mora na neko vrijeme
postati zaštitnik granica,
postati zaštitnik granica,
17:24
It's his responsibility to bring it up,
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on ih mora podići
17:26
because if he thinks about it,
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jer ako malo razmisli o tome,
17:28
he can relieve Heather from the obsession,
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može umanjiti Heatherinu opsesiju
17:31
and from having to make sure
that the affair isn't forgotten,
that the affair isn't forgotten,
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i trud da se prijevara ne zaboravi
17:35
and that in itself
begins to restore trust.
begins to restore trust.
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te samim time početi
ponovno uspostavljati povjerenje.
ponovno uspostavljati povjerenje.
17:39
But for Heather,
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A za Heather,
17:41
or deceived partners,
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odnosno za prevarenog partnera,
17:43
it is essential to do things
that bring back a sense of self-worth,
that bring back a sense of self-worth,
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ključno je bavljenje stvarima
koje joj vraćaju osjećaj osobne važnosti,
koje joj vraćaju osjećaj osobne važnosti,
17:48
to surround oneself with love
and with friends and activities
and with friends and activities
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važno je okružiti se ljubavlju
i prijateljima i aktivnostima
i prijateljima i aktivnostima
17:52
that give back joy
and meaning and identity.
and meaning and identity.
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koje vraćaju radost, smisao i identitet,
17:55
But even more important,
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ali još je važnije
17:57
is to curb the curiosity
to mine for the sordid details --
to mine for the sordid details --
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obuzdati znatiželju
za traženjem prljavih detalja -
za traženjem prljavih detalja -
18:02
Where were you? Where did you do it?
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Gdje ste bili?
18:04
How often? Is she better
than me in bed? --
than me in bed? --
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Koliko ste to često radili?
Je li bolja od mene? --
Je li bolja od mene? --
18:07
questions that only inflict more pain,
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to su pitanja koja nanose još više boli
18:10
and keep you awake at night.
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i uzrokuju besane noći.
18:12
And instead, switch to what I call
the investigative questions,
the investigative questions,
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Umjesto toga, bolje je
služiti se istraživačkim pitanjima,
služiti se istraživačkim pitanjima,
18:17
the ones that mine
the meaning and the motives --
the meaning and the motives --
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pitanjima koja tragaju
za značenjem i motivima --
za značenjem i motivima --
18:20
What did this affair mean for you?
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Što ti je značila ova afera?
18:23
What were you able to express
or experience there
or experience there
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Što si u njoj mogao izraziti ili iskusiti,
18:25
that you could no longer do with me?
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a što više nisi mogao sa mnom?
18:28
What was it like for you
when you came home?
when you came home?
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Kako bi se osjećao kad bi došao kući?
18:31
What is it about us that you value?
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Što cijeniš u našoj vezi?
18:34
Are you pleased this is over?
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Je li ti drago što je gotovo?
18:38
Every affair will redefine a relationship,
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Svaka će prijevara redefinirati odnos
18:42
and every couple will determine
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i svaki će par odlučiti
18:45
what the legacy of the affair will be.
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što će ona ostaviti za sobom.
18:49
But affairs are here to stay,
and they're not going away.
and they're not going away.
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No, prijevare će se i dalje
događati, ne idu nikamo,
događati, ne idu nikamo,
18:54
And the dilemmas of love and desire,
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a dvojbe između ljubavi i čežnje
18:56
they don't yield just simple answers
of black and white and good and bad,
of black and white and good and bad,
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ne daju samo jednostavne odgovore,
crno - bijele, dobre i loše,
crno - bijele, dobre i loše,
19:02
and victim and perpetrator.
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žrtve i počinitelje.
19:06
Betrayal in a relationship
comes in many forms.
comes in many forms.
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Izdaja u vezi dolazi
u različitim oblicima.
u različitim oblicima.
19:10
There are many ways
that we betray our partner:
that we betray our partner:
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Partnera možete izdati na brojne načine -
19:12
with contempt, with neglect,
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prezirom, zanemarivanjem,
19:14
with indifference, with violence.
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ravnodušnošću, nasiljem.
19:17
Sexual betrayal is only
one way to hurt a partner.
one way to hurt a partner.
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Seksualna izdaja samo je jedan
od načina da povrijedite partnera.
od načina da povrijedite partnera.
19:21
In other words, the victim of an affair
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Drugim riječima, žrtva prijevare
19:24
is not always the victim of the marriage.
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nije uvijek žrtva i u braku.
19:29
Now, you've listened to me,
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Slušate me
19:32
and I know what you're thinking:
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i znam što mislite:
19:34
She has a French accent,
she must be pro-affair.
she must be pro-affair.
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3774
Ima francuski naglasak,
mora da je zagovornica afera.
mora da je zagovornica afera.
19:38
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
19:43
So, you're wrong.
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U krivu ste.
19:45
I am not French.
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Nisam Francuskinja.
19:47
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
19:50
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
19:53
And I'm not pro-affair.
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A nisam ni zagovornica afera.
19:56
But because I think that good
can come out of an affair,
can come out of an affair,
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1184674
4384
Ali zato što mislim da iz njih
može proizaći i nešto dobro,
može proizaći i nešto dobro,
20:01
I have often been asked
this very strange question:
this very strange question:
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često mi postavljaju ovo neobično pitanje:
20:04
Would I ever recommend it?
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Biste li je preporučili?
20:07
Now, I would no more
recommend you have an affair
recommend you have an affair
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Ne bih vam preporučila aferu,
20:10
than I would recommend you have cancer,
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kao što vam ne bih preporučila ni rak,
20:13
and yet we know that people
who have been ill
who have been ill
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2703
a opet znamo da oni koji obole
20:15
often talk about how their illness
has yielded them a new perspective.
has yielded them a new perspective.
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često govore o tome kako
im je bolest dala novu perspektivu.
im je bolest dala novu perspektivu.
20:20
The main question that I've been asked
since I arrived at this conference
since I arrived at this conference
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Glavno pitanje koje mi postavljaju
otkako sam stigla na konferenciju
otkako sam stigla na konferenciju
20:23
when I said I would talk
about infidelity is, for or against?
about infidelity is, for or against?
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kad sam rekla da ću pričati
o nevjeri, bilo je - za ili protiv?
o nevjeri, bilo je - za ili protiv?
20:28
I said, "Yes."
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Rekoh, "Da."
20:30
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
20:33
I look at affairs from a dual perspective:
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3637
Na prijevare gledam s dvojne perspektive:
20:37
hurt and betrayal on one side,
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3648
bol i izdaja na jednoj strani,
20:41
growth and self-discovery on the other --
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osobni rast i otkriće na drugoj -
20:44
what it did to you,
and what it meant for me.
and what it meant for me.
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kako je to na tebe utjecalo
i što je meni značilo.
i što je meni značilo.
20:48
And so when a couple comes to me
in the aftermath of an affair
in the aftermath of an affair
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Kad mi par dođe nakon afere
20:53
that has been revealed,
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koja je razotkrivena,
20:55
I will often tell them this:
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često im kažem ovo:
20:57
Today in the West,
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U današnje vrijeme, na Zapadu,
20:59
most of us are going to have
two or three relationships
two or three relationships
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većina nas imat će dvije ili tri veze
21:04
or marriages,
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ili braka,
21:06
and some of us are going
to do it with the same person.
to do it with the same person.
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a neki od nas to će
učiniti s istom osobom.
učiniti s istom osobom.
21:10
Your first marriage is over.
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Vaš prvi brak je završen.
21:13
Would you like to create
a second one together?
a second one together?
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Želite li stvoriti i drugi, zajedno?
21:17
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
21:18
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Esther Perel - Relationship therapistPsychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life.
Why you should listen
For the first time in human history, couples aren’t having sex just to have kids; there’s room for sustained desire and long-term sexual relationships. But how? Perel, a licensed marriage and family therapist with a practice in New York, travels the world to help people answer this question. For her research she works across cultures and is fluent in nine languages. She coaches, consults and speaks regularly on erotic intelligence, trauma, sexual honesty and conflict resolution. She is the author of Mating in Captivity: Reconciling the Erotic and the Domestic. Her latest work focuses on infidelity: what it is, why happy people do it and how couples can recover from it. She aims to locate this very personal experience within a larger cultural context.
Esther Perel | Speaker | TED.com