TED2015
Dan Ariely: How equal do we want the world to be? You'd be surprised
Dan Ariely: Akú sociálnu spravodlivosť chceme? Budete prekvapení.
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Správy o stúpajúcej sociálnej nerovnosti nás všetkých znepokojujú. Ale prečo? Dan Ariely predstavuje prekvapivé závery svojho výskumu o tom, čo považujeme za spravodlivé pri rozdelení bohatstva v spoločnosti. A potom si to porovnáme s reálnymi štatistikami.
Dan Ariely - Behavioral economist
The dismal science of economics is not as firmly grounded in actual behavior as was once supposed. In "Predictably Irrational," Dan Ariely told us why. Full bio
The dismal science of economics is not as firmly grounded in actual behavior as was once supposed. In "Predictably Irrational," Dan Ariely told us why. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
It would be nice to be
objective in life,
objective in life,
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Bolo by v mnohých ohľadoch fajn,
keby sme vnímali svet objektívne.
keby sme vnímali svet objektívne.
00:15
in many ways.
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00:17
The problem is that we have
these color-tinted glasses
these color-tinted glasses
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My sa však na všetky možné situácie
pozeráme cez farebné okuliare.
pozeráme cez farebné okuliare.
00:20
as we look at all kinds of situations.
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00:25
For example, think about
something as simple as beer.
something as simple as beer.
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Zoberme si niečo také jednoduché ako pivo.
00:29
If I gave you a few beers to taste
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Ak by som vám dal ochutnať rôzne pivá,
00:31
and I asked you to rate them
on intensity and bitterness,
on intensity and bitterness,
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aby ste ohodnotili ich silu a horkosť,
00:35
different beers would occupy
different space.
different space.
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rôzne pivá by dopadli rôzne.
00:39
But what if we tried
to be objective about it?
to be objective about it?
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Ale čo ak by sme chceli byť objektívni?
00:41
In the case of beer,
it would be very simple.
it would be very simple.
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V prípade piva by to šlo
zariadiť jednoducho:
zariadiť jednoducho:
00:43
What if we did a blind taste?
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Čo ak by ste ochutnávali naslepo?
00:46
Well, if we did the same thing,
you tasted the same beer,
you tasted the same beer,
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Pivá by boli rovnaké ako predým,
len by ste nevedeli, ktoré je ktoré.
len by ste nevedeli, ktoré je ktoré.
00:48
now in the blind taste,
things would look slightly different.
things would look slightly different.
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To by už dopadlo trošku inak.
00:52
Most of the beers will go into one place.
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Väčšina pív by skončila
na rovnakom mieste.
na rovnakom mieste.
00:55
You will basically not
be able to distinguish them,
be able to distinguish them,
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Prakticky by ste ich nevedeli rozlíšiť,
00:57
and the exception, of course,
will be Guinness.
will be Guinness.
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samozrejme s výnimkou …
Guinessa.
01:00
(Laughter)
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(smiech)
01:02
Similarly, we can think about physiology.
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Podobne to funguje aj s fyziológiou.
01:05
What happens when people expect
something from their physiology?
something from their physiology?
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Čo sa stane, ak od svojej fyziológie
očakávate určitú vec?
očakávate určitú vec?
01:08
For example, we sold people
pain medications.
pain medications.
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My sme napríklad ľuďom
predávali istý liek proti bolesti.
predávali istý liek proti bolesti.
01:11
Some people, we told them
the medications were expensive.
the medications were expensive.
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Niektorým draho a niektorým lacno.
01:13
Some people, we told them it was cheap.
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01:15
And the expensive
pain medication worked better.
pain medication worked better.
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A ten drahý zaberal lepšie.
01:18
It relieved more pain from people,
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Ľuďom viac pomáhal od bolesti,
01:21
because expectations
do change our physiology.
do change our physiology.
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lebo očakávanie naozaj
mení ľudskú fyziológiu.
mení ľudskú fyziológiu.
01:24
And of course, we all know that in sports,
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A ako všetci vieme zo športu,
01:26
if you are a fan of a particular team,
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ak fandíte určitému tímu,
01:28
you can't help but see the game
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budete zápas vnímať
z pohľadu vášho mužstva.
z pohľadu vášho mužstva.
01:31
develop from the perspective of your team.
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01:34
So all of those are cases in which
our preconceived notions
our preconceived notions
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Vo všetkých týchto prípadoch
naše predstavy a očakávania
naše predstavy a očakávania
01:38
and our expectations color our world.
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zafarbujú náš svet.
01:42
But what happened
in more important questions?
in more important questions?
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A ako je to s dôležitejšími témami?
01:45
What happened with questions
that had to do with social justice?
that had to do with social justice?
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S otázkami týkajúcimi sa
spoločenskej spravodlivosti?
spoločenskej spravodlivosti?
01:49
So we wanted to think about
what is the blind tasting version
what is the blind tasting version
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Rozmýšľali sme, ako by sme
takto „naslepo“ mohli zistiť,
takto „naslepo“ mohli zistiť,
01:52
for thinking about inequality?
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čo si ľudia myslia o nerovnosti.
01:55
So we started looking at inequality,
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Zamerali sme sa teda na tému nerovnosti
01:57
and we did some large-scale surveys
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a urobili veľký prieskum
v USA a iných krajinách.
v USA a iných krajinách.
01:59
around the U.S. and other countries.
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02:02
So we asked two questions:
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Pýtali sme sa dve otázky:
02:04
Do people know what kind of
level of inequality we have?
level of inequality we have?
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Vedia ľudia, akú úroveň nerovnosti máme?
02:07
And then, what level of inequality
do we want to have?
do we want to have?
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A potom, akú úroveň nerovnosti
by sme chceli mať.
by sme chceli mať.
02:11
So let's think about the first question.
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Zastavme sa pri prvej otázke.
02:14
Imagine I took all the people in the U.S.
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Predstavte si, že všetkých občanov USA
02:16
and I sorted them from
the poorest on the right
the poorest on the right
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zoradím sprava doľava
od najchudobnejších po najbohatších.
od najchudobnejších po najbohatších.
02:19
to the richest on the left,
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A potom ich rozdelím do piatich blokov:
02:21
and then I divided them into five buckets:
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02:24
the poorest 20 percent,
the next 20 percent,
the next 20 percent,
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najchudobnejších 20 %, ďalších 20 %
02:26
the next, the next,
and the richest 20 percent.
and the richest 20 percent.
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ďalších a ďalších,
a potom najbohatších 20 %.
a potom najbohatších 20 %.
02:29
And then I asked you to tell me
how much wealth do you think
how much wealth do you think
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A potom sa vás spýtam, koľko bohatstva
podľa vás je v každom z týchto blokov?
podľa vás je v každom z týchto blokov?
02:32
is concentrated in each of those buckets.
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02:35
So to make it simpler,
imagine I ask you to tell me,
imagine I ask you to tell me,
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Zjednoduším to,
predstave si, že sa vás pýtam,
predstave si, že sa vás pýtam,
02:37
how much wealth do you think
is concentrated
is concentrated
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koľko bohatstva obsahujú dolné dva bloky,
02:40
in the bottom two buckets,
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čo je dolných 40 % ľudí.
02:42
the bottom 40 percent?
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02:44
Take a second. Think about it
and have a number.
and have a number.
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Zamyslite sa na chvíľku
a pripravte si číslo.
a pripravte si číslo.
02:47
Usually we don't think.
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Väčšinou sa príliš nezamýšľame.
02:49
Think for a second,
have a real number in your mind.
have a real number in your mind.
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Pripravte si konkrétne číslo.
Máte?
Máte?
02:51
You have it?
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02:53
Okay, here's what lots
of Americans tell us.
of Americans tell us.
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OK, takto to vidí
priemerný Američan.
priemerný Američan.
02:56
They think that the bottom 20 percent
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Dolných 20 % podľa neho
vlastní 2,9 % bohatstva,
vlastní 2,9 % bohatstva,
02:58
has about 2.9 percent of the wealth,
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03:00
the next group has 6.4,
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nasledujúci blok 6,4 %,
03:02
so together it's slightly more than nine.
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Spolu teda niečo vyše 9 %.
03:05
The next group, they say, has 12 percent,
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Ďalšia skupina vlastní 12 %,
03:08
20 percent,
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potom 20 %,
03:10
and the richest 20 percent, people think
has 58 percent of the wealth.
has 58 percent of the wealth.
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a najbohatších 20 % ľudí
vraj vlastní 58 % bohatstva.
vraj vlastní 58 % bohatstva.
03:15
You can see how this relates
to what you thought.
to what you thought.
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Môžete si to porovnať s vaším výsledkom.
03:18
Now, what's reality?
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Aká je skutočnosť?
03:19
Reality is slightly different.
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Trošku iná.
03:21
The bottom 20 percent
has 0.1 percent of the wealth.
has 0.1 percent of the wealth.
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Dolných 20 % má 0,1 % majetku,
03:25
The next 20 percent
has 0.2 percent of the wealth.
has 0.2 percent of the wealth.
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ďalších 20 % vlastní 0,2 %.
03:28
Together, it's 0.3.
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Spolu teda 0,3 %.
03:30
The next group has 3.9,
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Ďalšia skupina má 3,9 %,
03:34
11.3,
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potom 11,3 %
03:36
and the richest group
has 84-85 percent of the wealth.
has 84-85 percent of the wealth.
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a najbohatší vlastnia 84 – 85 % bohatstva.
03:42
So what we actually have
and what we think we have
and what we think we have
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Je veľký rozdiel v tom, čo si myslíme,
že máme, a čo máme naozaj.
že máme, a čo máme naozaj.
03:45
are very different.
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03:47
What about what we want?
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A ako by sme to chceli mať?
Ako také niečo vôbec zistiť?
03:49
How do we even figure this out?
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My sme si pri výskume toho,
čo ľudia naozaj chcú,
čo ľudia naozaj chcú,
03:51
So to look at this,
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03:52
to look at what we really want,
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03:54
we thought about
the philosopher John Rawls.
the philosopher John Rawls.
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pomohli filozofom Johnom Rawlsom.
03:57
If you remember John Rawls,
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Ak si spomínate, John Rawls definoval
spravodlivú spoločnosť takto:
spravodlivú spoločnosť takto:
03:59
he had this notion
of what's a just society.
of what's a just society.
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04:02
He said a just society
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„Ak by ste o nej všetko vedeli,
boli by ste ochotní vstúpiť do nej
boli by ste ochotní vstúpiť do nej
04:04
is a society that if
you knew everything about it,
you knew everything about it,
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04:06
you would be willing
to enter it in a random place.
to enter it in a random place.
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v akomkoľvek postavení.“
04:09
And it's a beautiful definition,
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Je to krásna definícia,
04:10
because if you're wealthy,
you might want the wealthy
you might want the wealthy
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lebo ak ste bohatí, budete možno chcieť
04:13
to have more money, the poor to have less.
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bohatým pridať a chudobným ubrať
04:15
If you're poor, you might
want more equality.
want more equality.
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a ak ste chudobní, chcete
zrejme väčšiu rovnosť.
zrejme väčšiu rovnosť.
04:17
But if you're going
to go into that society
to go into that society
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Ale ak neviete,
aká bude vaša nová situácia,
aká bude vaša nová situácia,
04:19
in every possible situation,
and you don't know,
and you don't know,
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04:22
you have to consider all the aspects.
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musíte sa na to pozrieť z každej stránky.
04:24
It's a little bit like blind tasting
in which you don't know
in which you don't know
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Je to niečo ako ochutnávka naslepo,
04:27
what the outcome will be
when you make a decision,
when you make a decision,
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keď sa musíte rozhodnúť predtým,
než zistíte, ako sa veci majú.
než zistíte, ako sa veci majú.
04:30
and Rawls called this
the "veil of ignorance."
the "veil of ignorance."
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Rawls to nazval „závojom neznalosti“.
04:34
So, we took another group,
a large group of Americans,
a large group of Americans,
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Ďalšej veľkej skupiny
amerických respondentov
amerických respondentov
04:37
and we asked them the question
in the veil of ignorance.
in the veil of ignorance.
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sme sa pýtali cez tento závoj neznalosti:
04:40
What are the characteristics of a country
that would make you want to join it,
that would make you want to join it,
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Aká by mala byť majetková štruktúra
krajiny, v ktorej by ste chceli žiť
krajiny, v ktorej by ste chceli žiť
04:44
knowing that you could end
randomly at any place?
randomly at any place?
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bez ohľadu na to,
aké tam bude vaše postavenie?
aké tam bude vaše postavenie?
04:47
And here is what we got.
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Dostali sme toto:
04:49
What did people want to give
to the first group,
to the first group,
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Koľko ľudia chceli dať dolným 20 %?
04:51
the bottom 20 percent?
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04:53
They wanted to give them
about 10 percent of the wealth.
about 10 percent of the wealth.
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Chceli im dať okolo 10 % majetku.
04:56
The next group, 14 percent of the wealth,
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Druhej skupine 14 %,
04:59
21, 22 and 32.
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potom 21, 22 a 32 %.
05:04
Now, nobody in our sample
wanted full equality.
wanted full equality.
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Nikto v celej vzorke
nechcel úplnú rovnosť.
nechcel úplnú rovnosť.
05:07
Nobody thought that socialism
is a fantastic idea in our sample.
is a fantastic idea in our sample.
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Nikto nepovažoval socializmus
za úžasnú myšlienku.
za úžasnú myšlienku.
05:12
But what does it mean?
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Čo to znamená?
05:13
It means that we have this knowledge gap
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Odhaľuje to vedomostnú medzeru
05:15
between what we have
and what we think we have,
and what we think we have,
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medzi tým, čo máme,
a čo si myslíme, že máme.
a čo si myslíme, že máme.
05:18
but we have at least as big a gap
between what we think is right
between what we think is right
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A snáď ešte väčší je rozpor medzi tým,
čo považujeme za spravodlivé,
čo považujeme za spravodlivé,
05:22
to what we think we have.
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a tým, čo si myslíme, že máme.
05:24
Now, we can ask these questions,
by the way, not just about wealth.
by the way, not just about wealth.
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Týmto spôsobom sa, mimochodom,
môžeme pýtať nielen na majetok.
môžeme pýtať nielen na majetok.
05:28
We can ask it about other things as well.
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05:30
So for example, we asked people
from different parts of the world
from different parts of the world
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A môžeme sa pýtať ľudí
z rôznych kútov sveta.
z rôznych kútov sveta.
05:34
about this question,
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05:36
people who are liberals and conservatives,
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Pýtali sme sa
liberálov aj konzervatívcov,
liberálov aj konzervatívcov,
05:38
and they gave us basically
the same answer.
the same answer.
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a ich odpovede boli veľmi podobné.
05:40
We asked rich and poor,
they gave us the same answer,
they gave us the same answer,
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Bohatí a chudobní odpovedali
prakticky rovnako.
prakticky rovnako.
05:43
men and women,
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Muži aj ženy,
poslucháči verejnoprávneho rozhlasu
aj čitatelia časopisu Forbes.
aj čitatelia časopisu Forbes.
05:44
NPR listeners and Forbes readers.
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05:47
We asked people in England,
Australia, the U.S. --
Australia, the U.S. --
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Ľudia z Anglicka, Austrálie, USA –
05:50
very similar answers.
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veľmi podobné odpovede.
05:52
We even asked different
departments of a university.
departments of a university.
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Pýtali sme sa dokonca
ľudí z rôznych odborov.
ľudí z rôznych odborov.
05:54
We went to Harvard and we checked
almost every department,
almost every department,
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Na Harvarde sme obišli všetky katedry
05:57
and in fact, from Harvard Business School,
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a až na pár ľudí
z Harvard Business School,
z Harvard Business School,
05:59
where a few people wanted the wealthy
to have more and the [poor] to have less,
to have more and the [poor] to have less,
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ktorí by pridali bohatým
a ubrali chudobným,
a ubrali chudobným,
bola podobnosť zarážajúca.
06:03
the similarity was astonishing.
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06:05
I know some of you went
to Harvard Business School.
to Harvard Business School.
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Niektorí z vás chodili
na Harvard Business School, že?
na Harvard Business School, že?
06:08
We also asked this question
about something else.
about something else.
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Pýtali sme sa aj na to,
aký je dnes asi
aký je dnes asi
06:12
We asked, what about the ratio
of CEO pay to unskilled workers?
of CEO pay to unskilled workers?
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pomer príjmov riaditeľa podniku
a nekvalifikovaného robotníka?
a nekvalifikovaného robotníka?
06:17
So you can see what
people think is the ratio,
people think is the ratio,
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Toto si mysleli respondenti.
06:20
and then we can ask the question,
what do they think should be the ratio?
what do they think should be the ratio?
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A čo považovali za primerané?
06:24
And then we can ask, what is reality?
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A aká je skutočnosť?
06:26
What is reality? And you could say,
well, it's not that bad, right?
well, it's not that bad, right?
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Zdá sa, že v skutočnosti
to nie je také zlé.
to nie je také zlé.
06:30
The red and the yellow
are not that different.
are not that different.
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Červená a žltá sa príliš nelíši.
06:32
But the fact is, it's because
I didn't draw them on the same scale.
I didn't draw them on the same scale.
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Ale to len preto, že som ich
nenakreslil v rovnakej mierke.
nenakreslil v rovnakej mierke.
06:38
It's hard to see, there's yellow
and blue in there.
and blue in there.
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Je ich zle vidieť,
ale aj žltá a modrá tam sú.
ale aj žltá a modrá tam sú.
06:42
So what about other outcomes of wealth?
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A čo iné veci súvisiace s majetkom?
06:44
Wealth is not just about wealth.
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Majetok nie je len o majetku.
06:46
We asked, what about things like health?
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Pýtali sme sa napríklad na zdravie,
06:48
What about availability
of prescription medication?
of prescription medication?
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na dostupnosť liekov na predpis,
06:52
What about life expectancy?
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na strednú dĺžku života,
06:54
What about life expectancy of infants?
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na dojčenskú úmrtnosť.
06:57
How do we want this to be distributed?
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Tie by ako mali byť rozdelené?
06:59
What about education for young people?
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Čo vzdelanie pre mladých?
07:02
And for older people?
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A čo pre starších?
07:04
And across all of those things,
what we learned was that people
what we learned was that people
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Z toho celého sa ukázalo,
07:07
don't like inequality of wealth,
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že ľuďom sa majetková nerovnosť nepáči,
07:10
but there's other things where inequality,
which is an outcome of wealth,
which is an outcome of wealth,
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ale nerovnosť v ďalších oblastiach,
ktoré s majetkom súvisia,
ktoré s majetkom súvisia,
07:13
is even more aversive to them:
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je ešte neprijateľnejšia.
07:15
for example, inequality
in health or education.
in health or education.
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Napríklad nerovnosť prístupu
k zdraviu alebo ku vzdelaniu.
k zdraviu alebo ku vzdelaniu.
07:19
We also learned that people
are particularly open
are particularly open
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Tiež sme zistili,
že by ľudia chceli zmeniť
že by ľudia chceli zmeniť
07:22
to changes in equality
when it comes to people
when it comes to people
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najmä nerovnosti týkajúce sa tých,
ktorí o sebe nemôžu rozhodnúť:
ktorí o sebe nemôžu rozhodnúť:
07:24
who have less agency --
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07:26
basically, young kids and babies,
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predovšetkým malých detí,
07:29
because we don't think of them
as responsible for their situation.
as responsible for their situation.
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lebo tým neprisudzujeme
zodpovednosť za ich situáciu.
zodpovednosť za ich situáciu.
07:34
So what are some lessons from this?
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Čo z toho pre nás vyplýva?
Sú tu dva rozpory: medzi realitou a tým,
čo si myslíme, a tiež tým, čo si želáme.
čo si myslíme, a tiež tým, čo si želáme.
07:36
We have two gaps:
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07:37
We have a knowledge gap
and we have a desirability gap
and we have a desirability gap
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07:40
And the knowledge gap
is something that we think about,
is something that we think about,
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Zamyslime sa nad tým prvým:
07:42
how do we educate people?
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Ako ľudí vzdelávať?
07:44
How do we get people to think
differently about inequality
differently about inequality
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Ako dosiahnuť, aby inak zmýšľali
o nerovnosti a jej dôsledkoch,
o nerovnosti a jej dôsledkoch,
07:46
and the consequences of inequality
in terms of health, education,
in terms of health, education,
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ako je zdravie, vzdelanie,
závisť, kriminalita atď.?
závisť, kriminalita atď.?
07:50
jealousy, crime rate, and so on?
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Potom ten rozpor v tom, čo je žiadúce.
07:52
Then we have the desirability gap.
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07:54
How do we get people to think differently
about what we really want?
about what we really want?
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Aké zmeniť zmýšľanie ľudí o tom,
čo naozaj chcú?
čo naozaj chcú?
07:58
You see, the Rawls definition,
the Rawls way of looking at the world,
the Rawls way of looking at the world,
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Tá Rawlsova defininícia,
jeho pohľad na svet,
jeho pohľad na svet,
08:02
the blind tasting approach,
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prístup „ochutnávky naslepo“
08:03
takes our selfish motivation
out of the picture.
out of the picture.
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z obrázku stiera našu sebeckú motiváciu.
08:06
How do we implement that
to a higher degree
to a higher degree
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Ako dostať tento prístup
do povedomia ľudí,
do povedomia ľudí,
08:09
on a more extensive scale?
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a to vo veľkom meradle?
08:11
And finally, we also have an action gap.
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Je tu ešte jeden rozpor:
08:14
How do we take these things
and actually do something about it?
and actually do something about it?
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medzi tým, ako tieto veci berieme
a čo s tým robíme.
a čo s tým robíme.
08:17
I think part of the answer
is to think about people
is to think about people
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Čiastočne to pochopíme,
keď sa na ľudí pozrieme ako na malé deti,
keď sa na ľudí pozrieme ako na malé deti,
08:20
like young kids and babies
that don't have much agency,
that don't have much agency,
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ktoré o sebe príliš rozhodovať nemôžu,
08:23
because people seem to be
more willing to do this.
more willing to do this.
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lebo ľudia sú, zdá sa,
ochotní takto fungovať.
ochotní takto fungovať.
08:27
To summarize, I would say,
next time you go to drink beer or wine,
next time you go to drink beer or wine,
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Na záver by som povedal, že keď pôjdete
nabudúce na pivo alebo na víno,
nabudúce na pivo alebo na víno,
08:32
first of all, think about, what is it
in your experience that is real,
in your experience that is real,
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skúste rozlíšiť, čo z vašich vnemov
je realita a čo je placebo efekt,
je realita a čo je placebo efekt,
08:36
and what is it in your experience
that is a placebo effect
that is a placebo effect
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plynúci z vášho očakávania.
08:40
coming from expectations?
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08:41
And then think about what it also means
for other decisions in your life,
for other decisions in your life,
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A skúste to rozlíšiť aj pri iných
rozhodnutiach vo vašom živote
rozhodnutiach vo vašom živote
a tiež pri politických otázkach,
08:45
and hopefully also for policy questions
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ktoré sa týkajú nás všetkých.
08:47
that affect all of us.
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08:48
Thanks a lot.
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Ďakujem pekne.
08:50
(Applause)
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(potlesk)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Dan Ariely - Behavioral economistThe dismal science of economics is not as firmly grounded in actual behavior as was once supposed. In "Predictably Irrational," Dan Ariely told us why.
Why you should listen
Dan Ariely is a professor of psychology and behavioral economics at Duke University and a founding member of the Center for Advanced Hindsight. He is the author of the bestsellers Predictably Irrational, The Upside of Irrationality, and The Honest Truth About Dishonesty -- as well as the TED Book Payoff: The Hidden Logic that Shapes Our Motivations.
Through his research and his (often amusing and unorthodox) experiments, he questions the forces that influence human behavior and the irrational ways in which we often all behave.
Dan Ariely | Speaker | TED.com