ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Glenn Greenwald - Journalist
Glenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files.

Why you should listen

As one of the first journalists privy to NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden’s archives, Glenn Greenwald has a unique window into the inner workings of the NSA and Britain's GCHQ. A vocal advocate for civil liberties in the face of growing post-9/11 authoritarianism, Greenwald was a natural outlet for Snowden, who’d admired his combative writing style in Salon and elsewhere.

Since his original Guardian exposés of Snowden’s revelations, Pulitzer winner Greenwald continues to stoke public debate on surveillance and privacy both in the media, on The Intercept, and with his new book No Place to Hide -- and suggests that the there are more shocking revelations to come.

More profile about the speaker
Glenn Greenwald | Speaker | TED.com
TEDGlobal 2014

Glenn Greenwald: Why privacy matters

格伦 格林沃德: 为什么隐私很重要

Filmed:
2,346,660 views

格伦 格林沃德是第一个看到爱德华 斯诺登的文件的人,并写下了关于美国大量监视公民隐私的启示录。在这个激动人心的演讲中,格林沃德阐述了为什么即使你不需要隐藏什么,你仍然需要保护你的隐私。
- Journalist
Glenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:12
There is an entire整个 genre类型 of YouTubeYouTube的 videos视频
0
855
2943
YouTube 里有这样一类视频
我敢肯定在场所有人都有和视频里一样的经历
00:15
devoted忠诚 to an experience经验 which哪一个
1
3798
2013
00:17
I am certain某些 that everyone大家 in this room房间 has had.
2
5811
2577
它会找来一个人
00:20
It entails限嗣继承 an individual个人 who,
3
8388
2013
00:22
thinking思维 they're alone单独,
4
10401
1563
让他觉得自己是一个人
00:23
engages啮合 in some expressive表现的 behavior行为
5
11964
3206
然后让他做一些夸张的事情
00:27
wild野生 singing唱歌, gyrating回转 dancing跳舞,
6
15170
2507
比如大声唱歌,夸张地跳舞,
00:29
some mild温和 sexual有性 activity活动
7
17677
2603
或者一些轻度性行为
00:32
only to discover发现 that, in fact事实, they are not alone单独,
8
20280
2598
当这个人发现
00:34
that there is a person watching观看 and lurking潜伏,
9
22878
3045
其实有人埋伏在看时
00:37
the discovery发现 of which哪一个 causes原因 them
10
25923
1755
他会立刻停止在做的事情
00:39
to immediately立即 cease停止 what they were doing
11
27678
1900
00:41
in horror恐怖.
12
29578
1890
非常惊恐
00:43
The sense of shame耻辱 and humiliation屈辱
13
31468
2082
很明显,他感到非常丢脸
00:45
in their face面对 is palpable明显的.
14
33550
2283
00:47
It's the sense of,
15
35833
1732
这种感觉是
00:49
"This is something I'm willing愿意 to do
16
37565
1733
一些事我可以做
00:51
only if no one else其他 is watching观看."
17
39298
3600
但不能让人看到
00:54
This is the crux症结 of the work
18
42898
2418
这正是我在最近16个月内所专心研究的内容
00:57
on which哪一个 I have been singularly focused重点
19
45316
2047
00:59
for the last 16 months个月,
20
47363
1875
01:01
the question of why privacy隐私 matters事项,
21
49238
2062
为什么隐私这么重要
01:03
a question that has arisen兴起
22
51300
1938
一个引起世界辩论的话题
01:05
in the context上下文 of a global全球 debate辩论,
23
53238
3122
01:08
enabled启用 by the revelations启示 of Edward爱德华 Snowden斯诺登
24
56360
2488
它由爱德华·斯诺登的揭密而引起
01:10
that the United联合的 States状态 and its partners伙伴,
25
58848
2341
他揭露美国和其同盟
01:13
unbeknownst不知情 to the entire整个 world世界,
26
61189
2022
瞒着整个世界
01:15
has converted转换 the Internet互联网,
27
63211
2092
把互联网
01:17
once一旦 heralded预示 as an unprecedented史无前例 tool工具
28
65303
2801
这个曾经预示着民主和自由的前所未有的工具
01:20
of liberation解放 and democratization民主化,
29
68104
3316
01:23
into an unprecedented史无前例 zone
30
71420
1769
转变成前所未有的用来肆意监视的空间
01:25
of mass, indiscriminate surveillance监控.
31
73189
4094
01:29
There is a very common共同 sentiment情绪
32
77283
1957
在这场辩论中有一个普遍的论点
01:31
that arises出现 in this debate辩论,
33
79240
1486
01:32
even among其中 people who are uncomfortable不舒服
34
80726
1957
甚至包括那些厌恶受到大量监视的人
01:34
with mass surveillance监控, which哪一个 says
35
82683
2054
01:36
that there is no real真实 harm危害
36
84737
1923
认为这种大范围的侵入并没有实质的伤害
01:38
that comes from this large-scale大规模 invasion侵入
37
86660
2745
01:41
because only people who are engaged订婚 in bad acts行为
38
89405
3274
因为只有做坏事的人才想隐藏
01:44
have a reason原因 to want to hide隐藏
39
92679
2069
才关心他们的隐私
01:46
and to care关心 about their privacy隐私.
40
94748
2711
01:49
This worldview世界观 is implicitly隐式 grounded接地
41
97459
2781
这种世界观暗含着一个议题:
01:52
in the proposition主张 that there are
two kinds of people in the world世界,
42
100240
2176
这个世界上有两种人
01:54
good people and bad people.
43
102416
2036
好人和坏人
01:56
Bad people are those who plot情节 terrorist恐怖分子 attacks攻击
44
104452
2968
坏人是那些图谋恐怖袭击或者参与暴力犯罪的人
01:59
or who engage从事 in violent暴力 criminality犯罪
45
107420
1498
02:00
and therefore因此 have reasons原因 to
want to hide隐藏 what they're doing,
46
108918
3152
所以他们想要隐藏他们做的事情
02:04
have reasons原因 to care关心 about their privacy隐私.
47
112070
2057
想要保护他们的隐私
02:06
But by contrast对比, good people
48
114127
2823
相反的
好人是那些每天工作
02:08
are people who go to work,
49
116950
1653
02:10
come home, raise提高 their children孩子, watch television电视.
50
118603
2902
回家,带孩子,看电视的人
02:13
They use the Internet互联网 not to plot情节 bombing轰炸 attacks攻击
51
121505
2756
他们用互联网不是为了策划炸弹袭击
02:16
but to read the news新闻 or exchange交换 recipes食谱
52
124261
2475
而是为了看新闻,交流食谱,
02:18
or to plan计划 their kids'孩子们 Little League联盟 games游戏,
53
126736
2474
或者计划孩子的少年棒球比赛的
02:21
and those people are doing nothing wrong错误
54
129210
2318
这些人没做任何坏事
02:23
and therefore因此 have nothing to hide隐藏
55
131528
2047
所以没有什么好隐藏的
02:25
and no reason原因 to fear恐惧
56
133575
2362
也没有理由害怕政府监视他们
02:27
the government政府 monitoring监控 them.
57
135937
2442
02:30
The people who are actually其实 saying that
58
138379
1810
说这些话的人
02:32
are engaged订婚 in a very extreme极端 act法案
59
140189
2779
其实是在极大的自我贬低
02:34
of self-deprecation自嘲.
60
142968
1556
02:36
What they're really saying is,
61
144524
1909
他们其实是在说
02:38
"I have agreed同意 to make myself
62
146433
2193
我决定让我自己成为
02:40
such这样 a harmless无害 and unthreatening无威胁
63
148626
2846
一个没有伤害没有威胁
02:43
and uninteresting枯燥 person that I actually其实 don't fear恐惧
64
151472
2958
又无趣的人
这样我就不会害怕政府知道我在做什么
02:46
having the government政府 know what it is that I'm doing."
65
154430
3349
02:49
This mindset心态 has found发现 what I think
66
157779
1804
我发现这种心态
02:51
is its purest最纯净的 expression表达
67
159583
2069
和2009年谷歌CEO
艾瑞克 施密特接受采访时
02:53
in a 2009 interview访问 with
68
161652
2307
02:55
the longtime长时间 CEOCEO of Google谷歌, Eric埃里克 Schmidt施密特, who,
69
163959
2935
02:58
when asked about all the different不同 ways方法 his company公司
70
166894
2542
回答关于他的公司以各种方式
侵犯全世界几亿人的隐私的问题时
03:01
is causing造成 invasions入侵 of privacy隐私
71
169436
2172
03:03
for hundreds数以百计 of millions百万 of people around the world世界,
72
171608
2609
03:06
said this: He said,
73
174217
1991
所做出的纯粹的表达是一样的:
03:08
"If you're doing something that you don't want
74
176208
1676
如果你在做的事情是你不希望让别人知道的
03:09
other people to know,
75
177884
2014
03:11
maybe you shouldn't不能 be doing it in the first place地点."
76
179898
4005
那么或许你首先就不应该做这件事
03:15
Now, there's all kinds of things to say about
77
183903
1985
现在,对于这种观念有各种各样的说法
03:17
that mentality心理,
78
185888
2345
03:20
the first of which哪一个 is that the people who say that,
79
188233
3240
第一种说法是认为那些说隐私并不重要的人
03:23
who say that privacy隐私 isn't really important重要,
80
191473
2115
03:25
they don't actually其实 believe it,
81
193588
2947
其实并不真的相信隐私不重要
03:28
and the way you know that
they don't actually其实 believe it
82
196535
1822
怎样发现他们并不相信呢
03:30
is that while they say with their
words that privacy隐私 doesn't matter,
83
198357
2869
在他们说隐私并不重要的同时
03:33
with their actions行动, they take all kinds of steps脚步
84
201226
3161
他们却在想方设法
03:36
to safeguard保障 their privacy隐私.
85
204387
2767
保卫他们的隐私
03:39
They put passwords密码 on their email电子邮件
86
207154
1818
他们给邮件设上密码
03:40
and their social社会 media媒体 accounts账户,
87
208972
1770
还有社交网络账号
03:42
they put locks on their bedroom卧室
88
210742
1879
他们给房门和厕所门上锁
03:44
and bathroom浴室 doors,
89
212621
1349
03:45
all steps脚步 designed设计 to prevent避免 other people
90
213970
2700
通过各种方法防止他人
03:48
from entering进入 what they consider考虑 their private私人的 realm领域
91
216670
2902
进入他们的私人领域
03:51
and knowing会心 what it is that they
don't want other people to know.
92
219572
3701
他们其实心里很清楚他们不想让别人知道一切
03:55
The very same相同 Eric埃里克 Schmidt施密特, the CEOCEO of Google谷歌,
93
223273
3060
同样的,谷歌CEO艾瑞克 施密特
03:58
ordered有序 his employees雇员 at Google谷歌
94
226333
2609
命令他在谷歌的员工
04:00
to cease停止 speaking请讲 with the online线上
95
228942
1935
停止一切与网络杂志CNET(科技资讯网)的交流
04:02
Internet互联网 magazine杂志 CNETCNET
96
230877
2273
04:05
after CNETCNET published发表 an article文章
97
233150
2590
因为CNET发表了一篇文章
04:07
full充分 of personal个人, private私人的 information信息
98
235740
2033
透露了大量的艾瑞克 施密特的个人信息
04:09
about Eric埃里克 Schmidt施密特,
99
237773
2081
04:11
which哪一个 it obtained获得 exclusively
through通过 Google谷歌 searches搜索
100
239854
3116
这些信息其实是完全通过谷歌搜索
和其他谷歌产品获得的(笑声)
04:14
and using运用 other Google谷歌 products制品. (Laughter笑声)
101
242970
3341
04:18
This same相同 division can be seen看到
102
246311
1857
相同的情况也发生在Facebook的CEO
马克 扎克伯格身上
04:20
with the CEOCEO of FacebookFacebook的, Mark标记 Zuckerberg扎克伯格,
103
248168
2462
04:22
who in an infamous臭名昭著 interview访问 in 2010
104
250630
3530
他在2010年那个名声狼藉的采访上
04:26
pronounced宣判 that privacy隐私 is no longer
105
254160
2399
断言隐私已经不再是一个“社会规范”
04:28
a "social社会 norm规范."
106
256559
3025
04:31
Last year, Mark标记 Zuckerberg扎克伯格 and his new wife妻子
107
259584
2556
去年,马克 扎克伯格和他的新任妻子
04:34
purchased购买 not only their own拥有 house
108
262140
2305
在帕洛阿尔托(美国旧金山附近城市)购买了他们的新房子,以及附近相邻的其他四所房子
04:36
but also all four adjacent houses房屋 in Palo帕洛阿尔托 Alto奥拓
109
264445
3875
04:40
for a total of 30 million百万 dollars美元
110
268320
1614
总值三千万美元
04:41
in order订购 to ensure确保 that they enjoyed享受 a zone of privacy隐私
111
269934
3532
为了确保他们享有足够的私人空间
04:45
that prevented防止 other people from monitoring监控
112
273466
2126
防止人们监视他们的私人生活
04:47
what they do in their personal个人 lives生活.
113
275592
3599
在过去的十六个月里,
我一直在世界各地游说这个问题
04:51
Over the last 16 months个月, as I've
debated辩论 this issue问题 around the world世界,
114
279191
2753
04:53
every一切 single time somebody has said to me,
115
281944
2416
每当有人跟我说:
04:56
"I don't really worry担心 about invasions入侵 of privacy隐私
116
284360
1509
”我真的不担心隐私受到侵犯,
04:57
because I don't have anything to hide隐藏."
117
285869
1609
因为我没有什么需要隐藏的。”
04:59
I always say the same相同 thing to them.
118
287478
1700
我总是对他们回答一样的话
05:01
I get out a pen钢笔, I write down my email电子邮件 address地址.
119
289178
2293
我拿出一支笔,写下我的邮箱地址
05:03
I say, "Here's这里的 my email电子邮件 address地址.
120
291471
1642
我说:”这是我的邮箱,
05:05
What I want you to do when you get home
121
293113
1699
我希望回家之后把你所有邮箱账号的密码发给我,
05:06
is email电子邮件 me the passwords密码
122
294812
1710
05:08
to all of your email电子邮件 accounts账户,
123
296522
1810
05:10
not just the nice不错, respectable可敬 work one in your name名称,
124
298332
2554
不仅仅是你工作上用的那些一本正经的邮箱
05:12
but all of them,
125
300886
1550
我要所有的
05:14
because I want to be able能够 to just troll拖钓 through通过
126
302436
2061
因为我就是想翻遍所有你的网上记录
05:16
what it is you're doing online线上,
127
304497
1679
05:18
read what I want to read and
publish发布 whatever随你 I find interesting有趣.
128
306176
2562
翻看到人和有趣的内容然后发表出来
05:20
After all, if you're not a bad person,
129
308738
1800
毕竟你不是个坏人
05:22
if you're doing nothing wrong错误,
130
310538
1822
你没做错事情
05:24
you should have nothing to hide隐藏."
131
312360
2980
你就没什么好隐藏的
05:27
Not a single person has taken采取 me up on that offer提供.
132
315340
3533
没有任何一个人接受我的提议
05:30
I check and — (Applause掌声)
133
318873
4005
我查过(掌声)
05:34
I check that email电子邮件 account帐户 religiously宗教 all the time.
134
322878
3240
我一直在虔诚的查看那个邮箱
05:38
It's a very desolate荒凉 place地点.
135
326118
3205
那里一直很荒凉
05:41
And there's a reason原因 for that,
136
329323
1787
这是有原因的
05:43
which哪一个 is that we as human人的 beings众生,
137
331110
2041
因为我们作为人类
05:45
even those of us who in words
138
333151
1954
即使一些人嘴上否认隐私的重要性
05:47
disclaim放弃 the importance重要性 of our own拥有 privacy隐私,
139
335105
2441
05:49
instinctively本能 understand理解
140
337546
2137
但他们心里很清楚它极大的重要性
05:51
the profound深刻 importance重要性 of it.
141
339683
2194
05:53
It is true真正 that as human人的 beings众生, we're social社会 animals动物,
142
341877
2827
作为人类,我们是社会性动物
05:56
which哪一个 means手段 we have a need for other people
143
344704
2149
这意味着我们需要其他人
05:58
to know what we're doing and saying and thinking思维,
144
346853
2744
来帮助我们知道我们在做什么,说什么,想什么
06:01
which哪一个 is why we voluntarily自行 publish发布
information信息 about ourselves我们自己 online线上.
145
349597
4270
这也是为什么我们自愿的在网上发布自己的信息
06:05
But equally一样 essential必要 to what it means手段
146
353867
2846
但是和成为一个自由的、完整的人类同等重要的是
06:08
to be a free自由 and fulfilled完成 human人的 being存在
147
356713
2581
06:11
is to have a place地点 that we can go
148
359294
2137
我们需要有一个地方完全远离其他人批判的目光
06:13
and be free自由 of the judgmental评判 eyes眼睛 of other people.
149
361431
4028
06:17
There's a reason原因 why we seek寻求 that out,
150
365459
2007
为什么我们要找到这样一个地方
06:19
and our reason原因 is that all of us —
151
367466
2910
原因是我们所有人
06:22
not just terrorists恐怖分子 and criminals罪犯, all of us —
152
370376
3328
-并非只有那些恐怖分子者和罪犯,而是我们所有人-
06:25
have things to hide隐藏.
153
373704
2045
都有想要隐藏的东西
06:27
There are all sorts排序 of things that we do and think
154
375749
2747
我们做的、想的各种各样的事情
06:30
that we're willing愿意 to tell our physician医师
155
378496
2701
我们有只愿意告诉自己的医生,
06:33
or our lawyer律师 or our psychologist心理学家 or our spouse伴侣
156
381197
3755
或者律师,或者心理医生,或者配偶,
06:36
or our best最好 friend朋友 that we would be mortified羞愧
157
384952
2338
或者好朋友的事情,如果让全世界都知道就会很囧的事情
06:39
for the rest休息 of the world世界 to learn学习.
158
387290
1960
06:41
We make judgments判断 every一切 single day
159
389250
2202
我们每天都会判断
06:43
about the kinds of things that we say and think and do
160
391452
2458
某些我们说的、想的、做的某些事情
06:45
that we're willing愿意 to have other people know,
161
393910
1721
我们愿意让别人知道
06:47
and the kinds of things that we say and think and do
162
395631
1990
还有某些我们说的、想的、做的某些事情
06:49
that we don't want anyone任何人 else其他 to know about.
163
397621
2329
我们不愿意让别人知道
06:51
People can very easily容易 in words claim要求
164
399950
3327
人们可以很轻易地说
06:55
that they don't value their privacy隐私,
165
403277
2162
他们不在乎他们的隐私
06:57
but their actions行动 negate否定 the authenticity真伪 of that belief信仰.
166
405439
4977
但他们的行为却在否定他们想法的真实性
07:02
Now, there's a reason原因 why privacy隐私 is so craved渴望
167
410416
3730
这有一个原因为什么隐私如此被渴望
07:06
universally举世 and instinctively本能.
168
414146
1744
普遍地而且本能地
07:07
It isn't just a reflexive反思 movement运动
169
415890
1887
这不仅仅是个反射性动作
07:09
like breathing呼吸 air空气 or drinking water.
170
417777
2714
像呼吸和喝水那样
07:12
The reason原因 is that when we're in a state
171
420491
2440
原因是当在我们的国家里
07:14
where we can be monitored监控,
where we can be watched看着,
172
422931
2657
我们被监视着,被看着的时候
07:17
our behavior行为 changes变化 dramatically显着.
173
425588
2676
我们的行为会有巨大的不同
07:20
The range范围 of behavioral行为的 options选项 that we consider考虑
174
428264
3033
我们对于自己行为的选择范围
07:23
when we think we're being存在 watched看着
175
431297
1808
在我们被观察者的时候
07:25
severely严重 reduce减少.
176
433105
2155
会严重缩小
07:27
This is just a fact事实 of human人的 nature性质
177
435260
2215
这就是人类的本性
07:29
that has been recognized认可 in social社会 science科学
178
437475
2288
被社会科学所认识
07:31
and in literature文学 and in religion宗教
179
439763
1907
还有文学、宗教
07:33
and in virtually实质上 every一切 field领域 of discipline学科.
180
441670
2228
以及几乎所有学科领域
07:35
There are dozens许多 of psychological心理 studies学习
181
443898
2782
很多心理学研究证明
07:38
that prove证明 that when somebody knows知道
182
446680
2551
当一个人知道他可能在被看着
07:41
that they might威力 be watched看着,
183
449231
1569
07:42
the behavior行为 they engage从事 in
184
450800
1692
他的行为会尤其地顺从
07:44
is vastly大大 more conformist墨守成规 and compliant兼容.
185
452492
3482
07:47
Human人的 shame耻辱 is a very powerful强大 motivator动力,
186
455974
3345
人的羞耻心是一个强大的动力
07:51
as is the desire欲望 to avoid避免 it,
187
459319
2911
也是一个想要避开它的欲望
07:54
and that's the reason原因 why people,
188
462230
1499
这就是为什么
07:55
when they're in a state of
being存在 watched看着, make decisions决定
189
463729
2239
人们在被看着的情况下所做的决定
07:57
not that are the byproduct副产品 of their own拥有 agency机构
190
465968
3262
并非他们自己机体的副产品
08:01
but that are about the expectations期望
191
469230
2012
而是别人或者社会正统所强加在他们身上的期望
08:03
that others其他 have of them
192
471242
1452
08:04
or the mandates任务 of societal社会的 orthodoxy正统.
193
472694
4434
08:09
This realization实现 was exploited利用 most powerfully有力
194
477128
2867
对于这件事的认识
08:11
for pragmatic务实 ends结束 by the 18th-TH-
century世纪 philosopher哲学家 Jeremy杰里米 Bentham边沁,
195
479995
4141
被结束在十八世纪的实用主义哲学家
杰里米 边沁所大为利用
08:16
who set out to resolve解决 an important重要 problem问题
196
484136
2351
他解决了工业时期出现的一个很重要的问题:
08:18
ushered迎来 in by the industrial产业 age年龄,
197
486487
1802
08:20
where, for the first time, institutions机构 had become成为
198
488289
2358
随着组织体系的开始增大和权力的不断集中,
08:22
so large and centralized集中
199
490647
1997
人们开始无法进行监控
08:24
that they were no longer able能够 to monitor监控
200
492644
1828
08:26
and therefore因此 control控制 each one
of their individual个人 members会员,
201
494472
2953
也无法控制到每一个组织成员
08:29
and the solution that he devised设计
202
497425
1881
边沁的解决方案是
08:31
was an architectural建筑的 design设计
203
499306
2203
一个建筑学设计
08:33
originally本来 intended to be implemented实施 in prisons监狱
204
501509
2716
本来是为了加强监狱的
08:36
that he called the panopticon圆形监狱,
205
504225
2319
他称之为全景监狱
08:38
the primary attribute属性 of which哪一个 was the construction施工
206
506544
2360
其主要特征是将一个巨大的塔
建立在组织机构的中间
08:40
of an enormous巨大 tower in the center中央 of the institution机构
207
508904
3071
08:43
where whoever controlled受控 the institution机构
208
511975
2148
也就是统治者所在的地方
08:46
could at any moment时刻 watch any of the inmates囚犯,
209
514123
2685
这样统治者就可以随时看到其中的居民
08:48
although虽然 they couldn't不能 watch all of them at all times.
210
516808
3322
虽然他不能一直看着所有的人
08:52
And crucial关键 to this design设计
211
520130
2055
这个设计的关键处在于
08:54
was that the inmates囚犯 could not actually其实
212
522185
1795
系统内的居民无法
08:55
see into the panopticon圆形监狱, into the tower,
213
523980
2876
看到塔的内部
08:58
and so they never knew知道
214
526856
1672
所以他们永远不知道
09:00
if they were being存在 watched看着 or even when.
215
528528
2172
自己是否或者什么时候是在被监视着的
09:02
And what made制作 him so excited兴奋 about this discovery发现
216
530700
3583
这也是这个设计让边沁兴奋的原因
09:06
was that that would mean that the prisoners囚犯
217
534283
1873
因为这意味着
09:08
would have to assume承担 that they were being存在 watched看着
218
536156
3028
囚犯们会假定
他们随时随地是被监视着的
09:11
at any given特定 moment时刻,
219
539184
1685
09:12
which哪一个 would be the ultimate最终 enforcer实施者
220
540869
1878
这种假定成为了顺从和服从的终极实施者
09:14
for obedience服从 and compliance合规.
221
542747
3678
09:18
The 20th-centuryTH-世纪 French法国 philosopher哲学家 Michel米歇尔 Foucault福柯
222
546425
2925
二十世纪法国哲学家米歇尔 福柯
09:21
realized实现 that that model模型 could be used
223
549350
1925
意识到这个模型不仅可以用于监狱
09:23
not just for prisons监狱 but for every一切 institution机构
224
551275
3115
它可以用于任何控制人类行为的机构:
09:26
that seeks寻求 to control控制 human人的 behavior行为:
225
554390
1950
09:28
schools学校, hospitals医院, factories工厂, workplaces工作场所.
226
556340
2875
学校、医院、工厂、工作场所
09:31
And what he said was that this mindset心态,
227
559215
2198
而且他说这种思维模式
09:33
this framework骨架 discovered发现 by Bentham边沁,
228
561413
2426
本沁发明的这种结构
09:35
was the key means手段 of societal社会的 control控制
229
563839
3329
是现代西方社会进行社会控制的主要手段
09:39
for modern现代, Western西 societies社会,
230
567168
2002
09:41
which哪一个 no longer need
231
569170
1774
让社会不再需要公然的使用暴政的武器
09:42
the overt公开 weapons武器 of tyranny暴政
232
570944
1907
09:44
punishing惩罚 or imprisoning监禁 or killing谋杀 dissidents持不同政见者,
233
572851
2396
-惩罚,或者投送监狱,或者处死异议者,
09:47
or legally法律上 compelling引人注目 loyalty忠诚 to a particular特定 party派对
234
575247
3314
或者合法地强迫一个政党对其忠诚-
09:50
because mass surveillance监控 creates创建
235
578561
2399
因为大量的监视
09:52
a prison监狱 in the mind心神
236
580960
2555
会在人脑中形成一个囚犯
09:55
that is a much more subtle微妙
237
583515
1843
一个更加细微的
09:57
though虽然 much more effective有效 means手段
238
585358
1889
但更加有效的
09:59
of fostering培育 compliance合规 with social社会 norms规范
239
587247
3049
力量让人服从社会规范
10:02
or with social社会 orthodoxy正统,
240
590296
1462
或者社会正统
10:03
much more effective有效
241
591758
1562
这是暴力手段远不能及的
10:05
than brute畜生 force could ever be.
242
593320
3125
关于监视和隐私,最形象的文学表达
是
乔治 奥威尔的小说《1984》
10:08
The most iconic标志性的 work of literature文学 about surveillance监控
243
596445
2818
10:11
and privacy隐私 is the George乔治 Orwell奥威尔 novel小说 "1984,"
244
599263
3550
10:14
which哪一个 we all learn学习 in school学校, and
therefore因此 it's almost几乎 become成为 a cliche陈词滥调.
245
602813
3467
我们在学校都学过,它都快成了陈词滥调了
10:18
In fact事实, whenever每当 you bring带来 it up
in a debate辩论 about surveillance监控,
246
606280
2069
事实上,在关于监视的讨论中
不论什么时候提到本书
10:20
people instantaneously瞬间 dismiss解雇 it
247
608349
2249
人们都立即忽略它,
10:22
as inapplicable不适用, and what they say is,
248
610598
2302
认为它行不通,他们说:
“在《1984》里人们家里都是监视器,
10:24
"Oh, well in '1984,' there were
monitors显示器 in people's人们 homes家园,
249
612900
3283
10:28
they were being存在 watched看着 at every一切 given特定 moment时刻,
250
616183
2165
他们无时无刻不被看着,
10:30
and that has nothing to do with
the surveillance监控 state that we face面对."
251
618348
3962
这和我们所面对的国家监控是不一样的.”
10:34
That is an actual实际 fundamental基本的 misapprehension误解
252
622310
2920
这其实是对奥威尔在《1984》里提出的警告
从根本上的误解
10:37
of the warnings警告 that Orwell奥威尔 issued发行 in "1984."
253
625230
2701
10:39
The warning警告 that he was issuing发行
254
627931
1651
他所发出的警告
10:41
was about a surveillance监控 state
255
629582
1608
其实不是关于国家随时随地在监视人们
10:43
not that monitored监控 everybody每个人 at all times,
256
631190
2164
10:45
but where people were aware知道的 that they could
257
633354
2053
而是人们在任何时候都知道他们是被监视着的
10:47
be monitored监控 at any given特定 moment时刻.
258
635407
1629
10:49
Here is how Orwell's奥威尔 narrator叙述者, Winston温斯顿 Smith工匠,
259
637036
3074
这是温斯顿 史密斯,奥威尔小所里的叙述者,
10:52
described描述 the surveillance监控 system系统
260
640110
2040
所描述的他们面对的监控系统:
10:54
that they faced面对:
261
642150
1398
10:55
"There was, of course课程, no way of knowing会心
262
643548
2427
“当然,你不可能任何时刻都知道你在被监视。”
10:57
whether是否 you were being存在 watched看着
at any given特定 moment时刻."
263
645975
2317
11:00
He went on to say,
264
648292
1451
他接着说:
11:01
"At any rate, they could plug插头 in your wire线
265
649743
1711
“无论如何,他们随时可以给你插上电线。
11:03
whenever每当 they wanted to.
266
651454
1709
11:05
You had to live生活, did live生活,
267
653163
2579
你必须,也确实活在一个渐渐变成本能的习惯里,
11:07
from habit习惯 that became成为 instinct直觉,
268
655742
2253
11:09
in the assumption假设 that every一切 sound声音 you made制作
269
657995
2495
习惯去假定你发出的任何声音都会被听到
11:12
was overheard偷听 and except in darkness黑暗
270
660490
2190
除了在黑暗中被仔细审查的时候。”
11:14
every一切 movement运动 scrutinized审查."
271
662680
2739
11:17
The Abrahamic亚伯拉罕 religions宗教 similarly同样 posit断定
272
665419
3346
亚伯拉罕诸教也有类似的设定
11:20
that there's an invisible无形, all-knowing顺风耳 authority权威
273
668765
2943
有一个无形的、无所不知的权威
11:23
who, because of its omniscience无所不知,
274
671708
1743
因为它的全知
11:25
always watches手表 whatever随你 you're doing,
275
673451
1896
它总是在看你在做什么
11:27
which哪一个 means手段 you never have a private私人的 moment时刻,
276
675347
2773
意思就是你从来没有一刻是私有的
11:30
the ultimate最终 enforcer实施者
277
678120
1684
也就是让你服从它的命令的最终执行者
11:31
for obedience服从 to its dictates使然.
278
679804
2990
11:34
What all of these seemingly似乎 disparate不同 works作品
279
682794
3404
这些看似不同的手段
11:38
recognize认识, the conclusion结论 that they all reach达到,
280
686198
2786
其实都归于相同的结论
11:40
is that a society社会 in which哪一个 people
281
688984
2322
一个永远在监视人们的社会
11:43
can be monitored监控 at all times
282
691306
2307
11:45
is a society社会 that breeds品种 conformity一致性
283
693613
2655
是在培养一致、顺从、和屈服
11:48
and obedience服从 and submission服从,
284
696268
2242
11:50
which哪一个 is why every一切 tyrant暴君,
285
698510
1511
这也是为什么每一个暴君
11:52
the most overt公开 to the most subtle微妙,
286
700021
2082
从公然施暴的到暗中控制的
11:54
craves渴望 that system系统.
287
702103
2263
都渴望这种制度
11:56
Conversely反过来, even more importantly重要的,
288
704366
2654
相反的,而且更重要的是
11:59
it is a realm领域 of privacy隐私,
289
707020
2440
在这样一个私人的空间里,
12:01
the ability能力 to go somewhere某处 where we can think
290
709460
3010
我们在里面可以思考,
12:04
and reason原因 and interact相互作用 and speak说话
291
712470
3158
辩论,互动,和交谈
12:07
without the judgmental评判 eyes眼睛
of others其他 being存在 cast upon us,
292
715628
3654
远离别人投来的批判的目光
12:11
in which哪一个 creativity创造力 and exploration勘探
293
719282
3543
只有创新、探索和异议可以存在
12:14
and dissent异议 exclusively reside居住,
294
722825
3028
12:17
and that is the reason原因 why,
295
725853
1821
这就是为什么
12:19
when we allow允许 a society社会 to exist存在
296
727674
2576
我们允许这样一个,
让我们受到持续监控的社会存在
12:22
in which哪一个 we're subject学科 to constant不变 monitoring监控,
297
730250
2163
12:24
we allow允许 the essence本质 of human人的 freedom自由
298
732413
2977
允许人类自由的本质惨遭残疾
12:27
to be severely严重 crippled.
299
735390
2951
12:30
The last point I want to observe about this mindset心态,
300
738341
3122
我想说的最后一点是
12:33
the idea理念 that only people who
are doing something wrong错误
301
741463
1925
这种认为只有做了错事的人
12:35
have things to hide隐藏 and therefore因此
reasons原因 to care关心 about privacy隐私,
302
743388
3882
才想隐藏,才关心隐私的思维模式
12:39
is that it entrenchesentrenches two very destructive有害 messages消息,
303
747270
4006
它确立了两个非常有害的信息
12:43
two destructive有害 lessons教训,
304
751276
2028
两个破坏性的训诫
12:45
the first of which哪一个 is that
305
753304
1756
第一个是
12:47
the only people who care关心 about privacy隐私,
306
755060
2120
只有那些关心隐私的人
12:49
the only people who will seek寻求 out privacy隐私,
307
757180
2056
只有那些想得到隐私的人
12:51
are by definition定义 bad people.
308
759236
4075
被定义为坏人
12:55
This is a conclusion结论 that we should have
309
763311
2132
这是一个我们应该用各种理由避免的结论
12:57
all kinds of reasons原因 for avoiding避免,
310
765443
2528
12:59
the most important重要 of which哪一个 is that when you say,
311
767971
2752
这其中最重要的是
13:02
"somebody who is doing bad things,"
312
770723
2377
当你说“那个人在做坏事”时
13:05
you probably大概 mean things
like plotting绘制 a terrorist恐怖分子 attack攻击
313
773100
2837
你可能是指谋划恐怖袭击
13:07
or engaging in violent暴力 criminality犯罪,
314
775937
2041
或参与暴力犯罪之类的事
13:09
a much narrower conception概念
315
777978
2540
这个概念比行使权力的人所指的“做坏事”要狭窄的多
13:12
of what people who wield power功率 mean
316
780518
2452
13:14
when they say, "doing bad things."
317
782970
2050
13:17
For them, "doing bad things" typically一般 means手段
318
785020
2307
对他们来说,“做坏事”基本上意思是
13:19
doing something that poses姿势 meaningful富有意义的 challenges挑战
319
787327
3071
做对自己的权利形成一定挑战的事
13:22
to the exercise行使 of our own拥有 power功率.
320
790398
3105
13:25
The other really destructive有害
321
793503
1950
另一个破坏性的
13:27
and, I think, even more insidious阴险 lesson
322
795453
1908
而且我认为更加阴险的训诫
13:29
that comes from accepting验收 this mindset心态
323
797361
2779
来自于接受这种思维模式
13:32
is there's an implicit含蓄 bargain讨价还价
324
800140
2766
这其中暗含一个交易
13:34
that people who accept接受 this mindset心态 have accepted公认,
325
802906
3344
接受这种思维模式的人同时也接受这个交易
13:38
and that bargain讨价还价 is this:
326
806250
1455
这个交易就是:
13:39
If you're willing愿意 to render给予 yourself你自己
327
807705
1972
只要你愿意让自己
13:41
sufficiently充分地 harmless无害,
328
809677
2102
对那些行使政治权利的人毫无伤害、毫无威胁
13:43
sufficiently充分地 unthreatening无威胁
329
811779
2170
13:45
to those who wield political政治 power功率,
330
813949
1882
13:47
then and only then can you be free自由
331
815831
3036
那么,也只有这样,你才就能够远离被监视的危险
13:50
of the dangers危险 of surveillance监控.
332
818867
2108
只有那些唱反调的
13:52
It's only those who are dissidents持不同政见者,
333
820975
2385
13:55
who challenge挑战 power功率,
334
823360
1481
挑战权力的人
13:56
who have something to worry担心 about.
335
824841
1812
有需要担心的事情
13:58
There are all kinds of reasons原因 why we
should want to avoid避免 that lesson as well.
336
826653
3407
我们同样有各种各样的理由拒绝这个训诫
14:02
You may可能 be a person who, right now,
337
830060
2238
你也许此时此刻
14:04
doesn't want to engage从事 in that behavior行为,
338
832298
2072
不想参与到那些行为之中
14:06
but at some point in the future未来 you might威力.
339
834370
2455
但也许将来什么时候你就会了
14:08
Even if you're somebody who decides决定
340
836825
1674
就算你决定
14:10
that you never want to,
341
838499
1765
你永远不会
14:12
the fact事实 that there are other people
342
840264
1634
也会有其他人
14:13
who are willing愿意 to and able能够 to resist
343
841898
2204
想要也能够反抗
14:16
and be adversarial对抗 to those in power功率
344
844102
2034
和敌对那些权力之中的人
14:18
dissidents持不同政见者 and journalists记者
345
846136
1534
比如政见不同的人,记者,
14:19
and activists活动家 and a whole整个 range范围 of others其他
346
847670
2088
积极分子,还有其他很多人
14:21
is something that brings带来 us all collective集体 good
347
849758
2494
这是会给我们带来集体的好处的
14:24
that we should want to preserve保留.
348
852252
2978
是我们所想要保护的
14:27
Equally一样 critical危急 is that the measure测量
349
855230
2094
平等的批判是衡量一个社会自由程度的标尺
14:29
of how free自由 a society社会 is
350
857324
2263
14:31
is not how it treats对待 its good,
351
859587
2150
不是看这个社会怎样对待好的、顺从它的公民
14:33
obedient听话, compliant兼容 citizens公民,
352
861737
2463
14:36
but how it treats对待 its dissidents持不同政见者
353
864200
1840
而是看它如何对待政见不同的人
14:38
and those who resist orthodoxy正统.
354
866040
3115
以及那些反抗正统的人
14:41
But the most important重要 reason原因
355
869155
1597
但是最重要的原因是
14:42
is that a system系统 of mass surveillance监控
356
870752
2401
一个大量监视的制度
14:45
suppresses禁止显示 our own拥有 freedom自由 in all sorts排序 of ways方法.
357
873153
2617
会以各种方式压制我们的自由
14:47
It renders呈现 off-limits禁止进入
358
875770
1801
它使我们的公众行为选择受到限制
14:49
all kinds of behavioral行为的 choices选择
359
877571
2006
14:51
without our even knowing会心 that it's happened发生.
360
879577
3553
而且我们对此甚至全然不知
14:55
The renowned闻名 socialist社会主义的 activist活动家 Rosa罗莎 Luxemburg卢森堡
361
883130
2482
著名社会主义积极分子罗莎 卢森堡
14:57
once一旦 said, "He who does not move移动
362
885612
2493
曾经说过:“如果你不动,
你是不会发现身上的锁链的。”
15:00
does not notice注意 his chains."
363
888105
3356
15:03
We can try and render给予 the chains
364
891461
1689
我们可以试着粉饰这些大量的、无形的监视的锁链
15:05
of mass surveillance监控 invisible无形 or undetectable检测不到,
365
893150
3089
15:08
but the constraints限制 that it imposes强加 on us
366
896239
2666
但它对我们施加的限制不会有任何减少
15:10
do not become成为 any less potent有力的.
367
898905
2545
15:13
Thank you very much.
368
901450
1608
非常感谢
15:15
(Applause掌声)
369
903058
1431
(掌声)
谢谢
15:16
Thank you.
370
904489
1507
(掌声)
15:17
(Applause掌声)
371
905996
4897
15:22
Thank you.
372
910893
2387
谢谢
15:25
(Applause掌声)
373
913280
2842
(掌声)
15:31
Bruno布鲁诺 Giussani吉萨尼: Glenn格伦, thank you.
374
919320
2292
布鲁诺 朱萨尼:格伦,非常感谢
15:33
The case案件 is rather convincing使人信服, I have to say,
375
921612
2289
我必须说你的演讲十分有说服力
15:35
but I want to bring带来 you back
376
923901
1565
但是我想回到十六个月前
15:37
to the last 16 months个月 and to Edward爱德华 Snowden斯诺登
377
925466
3351
关于爱德华斯诺登我有几个问题
如果你不介意的话
15:40
for a few少数 questions问题, if you don't mind心神.
378
928817
2065
15:42
The first one is personal个人 to you.
379
930882
2488
第一个问题对你来说比较私人
我们都看到了你的同伴大卫米兰达
在伦敦被捕的消息,以及他受到的磨难
15:45
We have all read about the arrest逮捕 of your partner伙伴,
380
933370
3041
15:48
David大卫 Miranda米兰达 in London伦敦, and other difficulties困难,
381
936411
3310
15:51
but I assume承担 that
382
939721
2084
但是我认为
15:53
in terms条款 of personal个人 engagement订婚 and risk风险,
383
941805
3356
就个人参与和风险来说
你身上的压力也不轻
15:57
that the pressure压力 on you is not that easy简单
384
945161
1804
15:58
to take on the biggest最大 sovereign君主
organizations组织 in the world世界.
385
946965
2945
承担着世界上最大的独立主权组织
16:01
Tell us a little bit about that.
386
949910
2435
给我们介绍一下吧
格林沃德:你知道吗,我认为
人们对于这件事的勇气是会传染的
16:04
Glenn格伦 Greenwald格林沃尔德: You know, I think
one of the things that happens发生
387
952345
1655
16:06
is that people's人们 courage勇气 in this regard看待
388
954000
1932
16:07
gets得到 contagious传染性的,
389
955932
1712
所以即使我以及其他和我一起工作的记者们
知道事情的危险性
16:09
and so although虽然 I and the other
journalists记者 with whom I was working加工
390
957644
3463
16:13
were certainly当然 aware知道的 of the risk风险
391
961107
1536
16:14
the United联合的 States状态 continues继续 to be
the most powerful强大 country国家 in the world世界
392
962643
2722
美国仍然是世界上最强大的国家
而且它不希望
16:17
and doesn't appreciate欣赏 it when you
393
965365
1998
你在网上任意泄露他大量的机密
16:19
disclose透露 thousands数千 of their secrets秘密
394
967363
1922
16:21
on the Internet互联网 at will —
395
969285
2511
看着一个29岁的
16:23
seeing眼看 somebody who is a 29-year-old-岁
396
971796
3469
生长于普通家庭环境的普通人
16:27
ordinary普通 person who grew成长 up in
397
975265
2019
16:29
a very ordinary普通 environment环境
398
977284
2313
16:31
exercise行使 the degree of principled原则
courage勇气 that Edward爱德华 Snowden斯诺登 risked冒险,
399
979597
3723
用高度有原则的勇气承担着
像爱德华 斯诺登所承担的这样的风险
16:35
knowing会心 that he was going to go
to prison监狱 for the rest休息 of his life
400
983320
2220
明知道他的后半生会在监狱中度过
16:37
or that his life would unravel,
401
985540
1782
或者他的生活会就此结束
16:39
inspired启发 me and inspired启发 other journalists记者
402
987322
1975
却激励着我,激励着其他的记者
16:41
and inspired启发, I think, people around the world世界,
403
989297
1823
激励着,我想,全世界的人
16:43
including包含 future未来 whistleblowers举报人,
404
991120
1688
包括将来的告密者
16:44
to realize实现 that they can engage从事
in that kind of behavior行为 as well.
405
992808
3515
让他们意识到他们一样可与参与进来
16:48
BGBG: I'm curious好奇 about your
relationship关系 with Ed埃德 Snowden斯诺登,
406
996323
2486
朱萨尼:我很好奇你和爱德 斯诺登的关系
16:50
because you have spoken with him a lot,
407
998809
3181
因为你多次提到他
而且你肯定会继续说到他
16:53
and you certainly当然 continue继续 doing so,
408
1001990
1763
但是在你的书里,你不会叫他“爱德华”
16:55
but in your book, you never call him Edward爱德华,
409
1003753
2636
16:58
nor也不 Ed埃德, you say "Snowden斯诺登." How come?
410
1006389
3460
或者爱德,你叫他“斯诺登”,为什么?
17:01
GGGG: You know, I'm sure that's something
411
1009849
1644
格林沃德:你知道吗,我确定这是
心理学家们要研究的事情(笑声)
17:03
for a team球队 of psychologists心理学家 to examine检查.
(Laughter笑声)
412
1011493
3331
我不是很确定。我觉得原因是
17:06
I don't really know. The reason原因 I think that,
413
1014824
3589
17:10
one of the important重要 objectives目标 that he actually其实 had,
414
1018413
3554
他的一个很重要的目的
一个,我想,最重要的策略是
17:13
one of his, I think, most important重要 tactics策略,
415
1021967
2336
他知道如果要从他的启示录本身转移注意力
17:16
was that he knew知道 that one of the ways方法
416
1024303
2207
17:18
to distract转移 attention注意 from the
substance物质 of the revelations启示
417
1026510
2690
17:21
would be to try and personalize个性化 the focus焦点 on him,
418
1029200
2650
就是将注意力集中在他自己身上
17:23
and for that reason原因, he stayed out of the media媒体.
419
1031850
2067
因此他一直远离媒体
17:25
He tried试着 not to ever have his personal个人 life
420
1033917
2509
他努力不让任何他的个人生活收到查问
17:28
subject学科 to examination检查,
421
1036426
1679
所以我觉得叫他斯诺登
17:30
and so I think calling调用 him Snowden斯诺登
422
1038105
2714
17:32
is a way of just identifying识别 him
as this important重要 historical历史的 actor演员
423
1040819
3574
是一种视他为一个重要的历史人物
17:36
rather than trying to personalize个性化 him in a way
424
1044393
1872
而不是将他个人化
17:38
that might威力 distract转移 attention注意 from the substance物质.
425
1046265
2880
从而导致分散对事件本身的注意力
17:41
Moderator主席: So his revelations启示, your analysis分析,
426
1049145
1457
朱萨尼:所以他的启示录,你的分析,
17:42
the work of other journalists记者,
427
1050602
1776
以及其他记者的文章
17:44
have really developed发达 the debate辩论,
428
1052378
3000
已经发起一个辩论
17:47
and many许多 governments政府, for example, have reacted反应,
429
1055378
2128
而且很多政府,比如,已经做出回应
17:49
including包含 in Brazil巴西, with projects项目 and programs程式
430
1057506
2604
包括巴西,提出项目和方案
17:52
to reshape重塑 a little bit the design设计 of the Internet互联网, etc等等.
431
1060110
2854
对互联网的设计做出一点修改,等等
17:54
There are a lot of things going on in that sense.
432
1062964
2752
这样说来很多事情都在进行中
17:57
But I'm wondering想知道, for you personally亲自,
433
1065716
2270
我在想,对你个人来说
17:59
what is the endgame结束游戏?
434
1067986
1651
什么才是最后的终结?
18:01
At what point will you think,
435
1069637
1633
怎么样才可以说
18:03
well, actually其实, we've我们已经 succeeded成功
in moving移动 the dial拨号?
436
1071270
3192
我们成功地转动了装盘?
18:06
GGGG: Well, I mean, the endgame结束游戏 for me as a journalist记者
437
1074462
2278
格林沃德:我想终结对于我,
一个记者来说,很简单
18:08
is very simple简单, which哪一个 is to make sure
438
1076740
2443
就是确保每条新闻有报道价值
18:11
that every一切 single document文件 that's newsworthy新闻价值
439
1079183
2012
应该公开的信息得到公开
18:13
and that ought应该 to be disclosed披露
440
1081195
1646
18:14
ends结束 up being存在 disclosed披露,
441
1082841
1480
18:16
and that secrets秘密 that should never
have been kept不停 in the first place地点
442
1084321
2037
不应该成为秘密的秘密最终被揭开
18:18
end结束 up uncovered裸露.
443
1086358
1475
18:19
To me, that's the essence本质 of journalism新闻学
444
1087833
1847
对我来说这就是记者的本质
18:21
and that's what I'm committed提交 to doing.
445
1089680
1527
也是我致力于做的事情
18:23
As somebody who finds认定 mass surveillance监控 odious可恶
446
1091207
2474
一些人很厌恶政府的监视
18:25
for all the reasons原因 I just talked about and a lot more,
447
1093681
2187
原因就像我之前讲到的那样,甚至更多
18:27
I mean, I look at this as work that will never end结束
448
1095868
2526
我的意思是,我把这看作一份没有终结的工作
18:30
until直到 governments政府 around the world世界
449
1098394
2177
直到全世界的政府不会再限制并且监视所有的人
18:32
are no longer able能够 to subject学科 entire整个 populations人群
450
1100571
2619
18:35
to monitoring监控 and surveillance监控
451
1103190
1486
18:36
unless除非 they convince说服 some court法庭 or some entity实体
452
1104676
2589
除非他们可以说服法院或其他机构
18:39
that the person they've他们已经 targeted针对
453
1107265
1722
去相信他们监视的对象真的做了错事
18:40
has actually其实 doneDONE something wrong错误.
454
1108987
2591
18:43
To me, that's the way that
privacy隐私 can be rejuvenated焕发青春.
455
1111578
3235
在我看来,这样,隐私才能是鲜活的。
18:46
BGBG: So Snowden斯诺登 is very,
as we've我们已经 seen看到 at TEDTED,
456
1114813
2346
朱萨尼:所以斯诺登,在我们TED的讲台上看来,
18:49
is very articulate说出 in presenting呈现 and portraying刻画 himself他自己
457
1117159
2768
是非常明确地表达自己的民主观念和民主原则的
18:51
as a defender辩护人 of democratic民主的 values
458
1119927
2280
18:54
and democratic民主的 principles原则.
459
1122207
1713
18:55
But then, many许多 people really
find it difficult to believe
460
1123920
3028
但是后来,很多人不相信这是他唯一的动力
18:58
that those are his only motivations动机.
461
1126948
2402
19:01
They find it difficult to believe
462
1129350
1478
他们不相信这之中没有钱的掺入
19:02
that there was no money involved参与,
463
1130828
1621
19:04
that he didn't sell some of those secrets秘密,
464
1132449
1911
他们不相信他没有把那些机密卖给其他国家
19:06
even to China中国 and to Russia俄国,
465
1134360
1829
甚至包括中国和俄罗斯
19:08
which哪一个 are clearly明确地 not the best最好 friends朋友
466
1136189
2544
这两个明显不是和美国的很友好的国家
19:10
of the United联合的 States状态 right now.
467
1138733
2169
19:12
And I'm sure many许多 people in the room房间
468
1140902
1706
而且我相信在坐的很多人
19:14
are wondering想知道 the same相同 question.
469
1142608
2270
都有同样的疑问
19:16
Do you consider考虑 it possible可能 there is
470
1144878
1883
你认不认为也许斯诺登的某一面
19:18
that part部分 of Snowden斯诺登 we've我们已经 not seen看到 yet然而?
471
1146761
2612
我们谁都没有见过
19:21
GGGG: No, I consider考虑 that absurd荒诞 and idiotic.
472
1149373
3181
格林沃德:不,我认为这太愚蠢而且荒唐了
19:24
(Laughter笑声) If you wanted to,
473
1152554
2414
(笑声)如果你想
19:26
and I know you're just playing播放 devil's鬼才 advocate主张,
474
1154968
2462
我知道你只是在故意唱反调
19:29
but if you wanted to sell
475
1157430
3211
但如果你真的想
19:32
secrets秘密 to another另一个 country国家,
476
1160641
1906
把机密卖给别的国家
19:34
which哪一个 he could have doneDONE and become成为
477
1162547
1717
而且如果他真的卖了
他会变得非常有钱
19:36
extremely非常 rich丰富 doing so,
478
1164264
1646
那他不会想要把那些机密
19:37
the last thing you would
do is take those secrets秘密
479
1165910
1981
19:39
and give them to journalists记者 and
ask journalists记者 to publish发布 them,
480
1167891
2744
拿给记者来发表
19:42
because it makes品牌 those secrets秘密 worthless无用.
481
1170635
2026
因为这样做会让那些机密变得不值钱
19:44
People who want to enrich丰富 themselves他们自己
482
1172661
1648
想发财的人
19:46
do it secretly偷偷 by selling销售
secrets秘密 to the government政府,
483
1174309
1970
会悄悄地把机密卖给政府
19:48
but I think there's one important重要 point worth价值 making制造,
484
1176279
1821
但是有一点值得提的是
19:50
which哪一个 is, that accusation指控 comes from
485
1178100
2238
那些指责来自美国政府
来自媒体里拥护各个政府的人
19:52
people in the U.S. government政府,
486
1180338
1832
19:54
from people in the media媒体 who are loyalists忠臣
487
1182170
2020
19:56
to these various各个 governments政府,
488
1184190
1598
而且我认为很多时候人们指责别人:
19:57
and I think a lot of times when people make accusations指责 like that about other people —
489
1185788
3148
他这样做肯定不是
20:00
"Oh, he can't really be doing this
490
1188936
1605
出于正当原因
20:02
for principled原则 reasons原因,
491
1190541
1665
他肯定有什么腐败或者不法的意图
20:04
he must必须 have some corrupt腐败, nefarious邪恶 reason原因" —
492
1192206
2242
20:06
they're saying a lot more about themselves他们自己
493
1194448
2107
他们其实更多的是在说他们自己
20:08
than they are the target目标 of their accusations指责,
494
1196555
1826
而不是他们指责的对象
20:10
because — (Applause掌声) —
495
1198381
4385
因为(掌声)
20:14
those people, the ones那些 who make that accusation指控,
496
1202766
2520
那些做出这些指责的人
20:17
they themselves他们自己 never act法案
497
1205286
1904
他们自己才只会出于腐败的原因做一些事情
20:19
for any reason原因 other than corrupt腐败 reasons原因,
498
1207190
1922
20:21
so they assume承担
499
1209112
1632
所以他们才会假设
所有人和他们一样
20:22
that everybody每个人 else其他 is plagued困扰 by the same相同 disease疾病
500
1210744
2632
都受卑鄙无情这种疾病困扰
20:25
of soullessnesssoullessness as they are,
501
1213376
2002
这就是他们的设想
20:27
and so that's the assumption假设.
502
1215378
1871
(掌声)
20:29
(Applause掌声)
503
1217249
1627
20:30
BGBG: Glenn格伦, thank you very much.
GGGG: Thank you very much.
504
1218876
2484
朱萨尼:格伦,非常感谢
格林沃德:非常感谢
朱萨尼:格伦 格林沃德
20:33
BGBG: Glenn格伦 Greenwald格林沃尔德.
505
1221360
2332
(掌声)
20:35
(Applause掌声)
506
1223692
1114
Translated by Yuchen Shen
Reviewed by Michael Ge 葛叔

▲Back to top

ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Glenn Greenwald - Journalist
Glenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files.

Why you should listen

As one of the first journalists privy to NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden’s archives, Glenn Greenwald has a unique window into the inner workings of the NSA and Britain's GCHQ. A vocal advocate for civil liberties in the face of growing post-9/11 authoritarianism, Greenwald was a natural outlet for Snowden, who’d admired his combative writing style in Salon and elsewhere.

Since his original Guardian exposés of Snowden’s revelations, Pulitzer winner Greenwald continues to stoke public debate on surveillance and privacy both in the media, on The Intercept, and with his new book No Place to Hide -- and suggests that the there are more shocking revelations to come.

More profile about the speaker
Glenn Greenwald | Speaker | TED.com