TEDGlobal 2014
Glenn Greenwald: Why privacy matters
格伦 格林沃德: 为什么隐私很重要
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格伦 格林沃德是第一个看到爱德华 斯诺登的文件的人，并写下了关于美国大量监视公民隐私的启示录。在这个激动人心的演讲中，格林沃德阐述了为什么即使你不需要隐藏什么，你仍然需要保护你的隐私。
Glenn Greenwald - Journalist
Glenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files. Full bio
Glenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
There is an entire genre of YouTube videos
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YouTube 里有这样一类视频
我敢肯定在场所有人都有和视频里一样的经历
00:15
devoted to an experience which
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00:17
I am certain that everyone in this room has had.
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它会找来一个人
00:20
It entails an individual who,
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00:22
thinking they're alone,
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让他觉得自己是一个人
00:23
engages in some expressive behavior —
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然后让他做一些夸张的事情
00:27
wild singing, gyrating dancing,
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比如大声唱歌，夸张地跳舞，
00:29
some mild sexual activity —
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或者一些轻度性行为
00:32
only to discover that, in fact, they are not alone,
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当这个人发现
00:34
that there is a person watching and lurking,
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其实有人埋伏在看时
00:37
the discovery of which causes them
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他会立刻停止在做的事情
00:39
to immediately cease what they were doing
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00:41
in horror.
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非常惊恐
00:43
The sense of shame and humiliation
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很明显，他感到非常丢脸
00:45
in their face is palpable.
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00:47
It's the sense of,
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这种感觉是
00:49
"This is something I'm willing to do
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一些事我可以做
00:51
only if no one else is watching."
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但不能让人看到
00:54
This is the crux of the work
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这正是我在最近16个月内所专心研究的内容
00:57
on which I have been singularly focused
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00:59
for the last 16 months,
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01:01
the question of why privacy matters,
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为什么隐私这么重要
01:03
a question that has arisen
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一个引起世界辩论的话题
01:05
in the context of a global debate,
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01:08
enabled by the revelations of Edward Snowden
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它由爱德华·斯诺登的揭密而引起
01:10
that the United States and its partners,
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他揭露美国和其同盟
01:13
unbeknownst to the entire world,
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瞒着整个世界
01:15
has converted the Internet,
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把互联网
01:17
once heralded as an unprecedented tool
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这个曾经预示着民主和自由的前所未有的工具
01:20
of liberation and democratization,
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01:23
into an unprecedented zone
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转变成前所未有的用来肆意监视的空间
01:25
of mass, indiscriminate surveillance.
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01:29
There is a very common sentiment
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在这场辩论中有一个普遍的论点
01:31
that arises in this debate,
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01:32
even among people who are uncomfortable
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甚至包括那些厌恶受到大量监视的人
01:34
with mass surveillance, which says
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01:36
that there is no real harm
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认为这种大范围的侵入并没有实质的伤害
01:38
that comes from this large-scale invasion
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01:41
because only people who are engaged in bad acts
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因为只有做坏事的人才想隐藏
01:44
have a reason to want to hide
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才关心他们的隐私
01:46
and to care about their privacy.
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01:49
This worldview is implicitly grounded
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这种世界观暗含着一个议题：
01:52
in the proposition that there are
two kinds of people in the world,
two kinds of people in the world,
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这个世界上有两种人
01:54
good people and bad people.
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好人和坏人
01:56
Bad people are those who plot terrorist attacks
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坏人是那些图谋恐怖袭击或者参与暴力犯罪的人
01:59
or who engage in violent criminality
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02:00
and therefore have reasons to
want to hide what they're doing,
want to hide what they're doing,
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所以他们想要隐藏他们做的事情
02:04
have reasons to care about their privacy.
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想要保护他们的隐私
02:06
But by contrast, good people
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相反的
好人是那些每天工作
02:08
are people who go to work,
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02:10
come home, raise their children, watch television.
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回家，带孩子，看电视的人
02:13
They use the Internet not to plot bombing attacks
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他们用互联网不是为了策划炸弹袭击
02:16
but to read the news or exchange recipes
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而是为了看新闻，交流食谱，
02:18
or to plan their kids' Little League games,
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或者计划孩子的少年棒球比赛的
02:21
and those people are doing nothing wrong
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这些人没做任何坏事
02:23
and therefore have nothing to hide
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所以没有什么好隐藏的
02:25
and no reason to fear
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也没有理由害怕政府监视他们
02:27
the government monitoring them.
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02:30
The people who are actually saying that
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说这些话的人
02:32
are engaged in a very extreme act
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其实是在极大的自我贬低
02:34
of self-deprecation.
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02:36
What they're really saying is,
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他们其实是在说
02:38
"I have agreed to make myself
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我决定让我自己成为
02:40
such a harmless and unthreatening
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一个没有伤害没有威胁
02:43
and uninteresting person that I actually don't fear
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又无趣的人
这样我就不会害怕政府知道我在做什么
02:46
having the government know what it is that I'm doing."
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02:49
This mindset has found what I think
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我发现这种心态
02:51
is its purest expression
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和2009年谷歌CEO
艾瑞克 施密特接受采访时
艾瑞克 施密特接受采访时
02:53
in a 2009 interview with
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02:55
the longtime CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, who,
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02:58
when asked about all the different ways his company
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回答关于他的公司以各种方式
侵犯全世界几亿人的隐私的问题时
侵犯全世界几亿人的隐私的问题时
03:01
is causing invasions of privacy
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03:03
for hundreds of millions of people around the world,
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03:06
said this: He said,
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所做出的纯粹的表达是一样的：
03:08
"If you're doing something that you don't want
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如果你在做的事情是你不希望让别人知道的
03:09
other people to know,
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03:11
maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."
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那么或许你首先就不应该做这件事
03:15
Now, there's all kinds of things to say about
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现在，对于这种观念有各种各样的说法
03:17
that mentality,
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03:20
the first of which is that the people who say that,
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第一种说法是认为那些说隐私并不重要的人
03:23
who say that privacy isn't really important,
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03:25
they don't actually believe it,
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其实并不真的相信隐私不重要
03:28
and the way you know that
they don't actually believe it
they don't actually believe it
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怎样发现他们并不相信呢
03:30
is that while they say with their
words that privacy doesn't matter,
words that privacy doesn't matter,
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在他们说隐私并不重要的同时
03:33
with their actions, they take all kinds of steps
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他们却在想方设法
03:36
to safeguard their privacy.
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保卫他们的隐私
03:39
They put passwords on their email
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他们给邮件设上密码
03:40
and their social media accounts,
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还有社交网络账号
03:42
they put locks on their bedroom
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他们给房门和厕所门上锁
03:44
and bathroom doors,
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03:45
all steps designed to prevent other people
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通过各种方法防止他人
03:48
from entering what they consider their private realm
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进入他们的私人领域
03:51
and knowing what it is that they
don't want other people to know.
don't want other people to know.
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他们其实心里很清楚他们不想让别人知道一切
03:55
The very same Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google,
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同样的，谷歌CEO艾瑞克 施密特
03:58
ordered his employees at Google
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命令他在谷歌的员工
04:00
to cease speaking with the online
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停止一切与网络杂志CNET（科技资讯网）的交流
04:02
Internet magazine CNET
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04:05
after CNET published an article
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因为CNET发表了一篇文章
04:07
full of personal, private information
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透露了大量的艾瑞克 施密特的个人信息
04:09
about Eric Schmidt,
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04:11
which it obtained exclusively
through Google searches
through Google searches
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这些信息其实是完全通过谷歌搜索
和其他谷歌产品获得的（笑声）
和其他谷歌产品获得的（笑声）
04:14
and using other Google products. (Laughter)
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04:18
This same division can be seen
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相同的情况也发生在Facebook的CEO
马克 扎克伯格身上
马克 扎克伯格身上
04:20
with the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg,
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04:22
who in an infamous interview in 2010
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他在2010年那个名声狼藉的采访上
04:26
pronounced that privacy is no longer
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断言隐私已经不再是一个“社会规范”
04:28
a "social norm."
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04:31
Last year, Mark Zuckerberg and his new wife
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去年，马克 扎克伯格和他的新任妻子
04:34
purchased not only their own house
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在帕洛阿尔托（美国旧金山附近城市）购买了他们的新房子，以及附近相邻的其他四所房子
04:36
but also all four adjacent houses in Palo Alto
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04:40
for a total of 30 million dollars
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总值三千万美元
04:41
in order to ensure that they enjoyed a zone of privacy
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为了确保他们享有足够的私人空间
04:45
that prevented other people from monitoring
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防止人们监视他们的私人生活
04:47
what they do in their personal lives.
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在过去的十六个月里，
我一直在世界各地游说这个问题
我一直在世界各地游说这个问题
04:51
Over the last 16 months, as I've
debated this issue around the world,
debated this issue around the world,
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04:53
every single time somebody has said to me,
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每当有人跟我说：
04:56
"I don't really worry about invasions of privacy
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”我真的不担心隐私受到侵犯，
04:57
because I don't have anything to hide."
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因为我没有什么需要隐藏的。”
04:59
I always say the same thing to them.
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我总是对他们回答一样的话
05:01
I get out a pen, I write down my email address.
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我拿出一支笔，写下我的邮箱地址
05:03
I say, "Here's my email address.
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我说：”这是我的邮箱，
05:05
What I want you to do when you get home
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我希望回家之后把你所有邮箱账号的密码发给我，
05:06
is email me the passwords
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05:08
to all of your email accounts,
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05:10
not just the nice, respectable work one in your name,
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不仅仅是你工作上用的那些一本正经的邮箱
05:12
but all of them,
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我要所有的
05:14
because I want to be able to just troll through
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因为我就是想翻遍所有你的网上记录
05:16
what it is you're doing online,
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05:18
read what I want to read and
publish whatever I find interesting.
publish whatever I find interesting.
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翻看到人和有趣的内容然后发表出来
05:20
After all, if you're not a bad person,
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毕竟你不是个坏人
05:22
if you're doing nothing wrong,
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你没做错事情
05:24
you should have nothing to hide."
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你就没什么好隐藏的
05:27
Not a single person has taken me up on that offer.
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没有任何一个人接受我的提议
05:30
I check and — (Applause)
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我查过（掌声）
05:34
I check that email account religiously all the time.
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我一直在虔诚的查看那个邮箱
05:38
It's a very desolate place.
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那里一直很荒凉
05:41
And there's a reason for that,
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这是有原因的
05:43
which is that we as human beings,
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因为我们作为人类
05:45
even those of us who in words
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即使一些人嘴上否认隐私的重要性
05:47
disclaim the importance of our own privacy,
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05:49
instinctively understand
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但他们心里很清楚它极大的重要性
05:51
the profound importance of it.
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05:53
It is true that as human beings, we're social animals,
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作为人类，我们是社会性动物
05:56
which means we have a need for other people
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这意味着我们需要其他人
05:58
to know what we're doing and saying and thinking,
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来帮助我们知道我们在做什么，说什么，想什么
06:01
which is why we voluntarily publish
information about ourselves online.
information about ourselves online.
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这也是为什么我们自愿的在网上发布自己的信息
06:05
But equally essential to what it means
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但是和成为一个自由的、完整的人类同等重要的是
06:08
to be a free and fulfilled human being
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06:11
is to have a place that we can go
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我们需要有一个地方完全远离其他人批判的目光
06:13
and be free of the judgmental eyes of other people.
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06:17
There's a reason why we seek that out,
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为什么我们要找到这样一个地方
06:19
and our reason is that all of us —
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原因是我们所有人
06:22
not just terrorists and criminals, all of us —
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－并非只有那些恐怖分子者和罪犯，而是我们所有人－
06:25
have things to hide.
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都有想要隐藏的东西
06:27
There are all sorts of things that we do and think
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我们做的、想的各种各样的事情
06:30
that we're willing to tell our physician
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我们有只愿意告诉自己的医生,
06:33
or our lawyer or our psychologist or our spouse
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或者律师，或者心理医生，或者配偶，
06:36
or our best friend that we would be mortified
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或者好朋友的事情，如果让全世界都知道就会很囧的事情
06:39
for the rest of the world to learn.
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06:41
We make judgments every single day
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我们每天都会判断
06:43
about the kinds of things that we say and think and do
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某些我们说的、想的、做的某些事情
06:45
that we're willing to have other people know,
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我们愿意让别人知道
06:47
and the kinds of things that we say and think and do
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还有某些我们说的、想的、做的某些事情
06:49
that we don't want anyone else to know about.
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我们不愿意让别人知道
06:51
People can very easily in words claim
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人们可以很轻易地说
06:55
that they don't value their privacy,
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他们不在乎他们的隐私
06:57
but their actions negate the authenticity of that belief.
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但他们的行为却在否定他们想法的真实性
07:02
Now, there's a reason why privacy is so craved
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这有一个原因为什么隐私如此被渴望
07:06
universally and instinctively.
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普遍地而且本能地
07:07
It isn't just a reflexive movement
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这不仅仅是个反射性动作
07:09
like breathing air or drinking water.
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像呼吸和喝水那样
07:12
The reason is that when we're in a state
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原因是当在我们的国家里
07:14
where we can be monitored,
where we can be watched,
where we can be watched,
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我们被监视着，被看着的时候
07:17
our behavior changes dramatically.
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我们的行为会有巨大的不同
07:20
The range of behavioral options that we consider
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我们对于自己行为的选择范围
07:23
when we think we're being watched
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在我们被观察者的时候
07:25
severely reduce.
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会严重缩小
07:27
This is just a fact of human nature
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这就是人类的本性
07:29
that has been recognized in social science
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被社会科学所认识
07:31
and in literature and in religion
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还有文学、宗教
07:33
and in virtually every field of discipline.
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以及几乎所有学科领域
07:35
There are dozens of psychological studies
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很多心理学研究证明
07:38
that prove that when somebody knows
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当一个人知道他可能在被看着
07:41
that they might be watched,
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07:42
the behavior they engage in
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他的行为会尤其地顺从
07:44
is vastly more conformist and compliant.
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07:47
Human shame is a very powerful motivator,
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人的羞耻心是一个强大的动力
07:51
as is the desire to avoid it,
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也是一个想要避开它的欲望
07:54
and that's the reason why people,
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这就是为什么
07:55
when they're in a state of
being watched, make decisions
being watched, make decisions
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人们在被看着的情况下所做的决定
07:57
not that are the byproduct of their own agency
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并非他们自己机体的副产品
08:01
but that are about the expectations
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而是别人或者社会正统所强加在他们身上的期望
08:03
that others have of them
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08:04
or the mandates of societal orthodoxy.
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08:09
This realization was exploited most powerfully
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对于这件事的认识
08:11
for pragmatic ends by the 18th-
century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,
century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,
195
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被结束在十八世纪的实用主义哲学家
杰里米 边沁所大为利用
杰里米 边沁所大为利用
08:16
who set out to resolve an important problem
196
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2351
他解决了工业时期出现的一个很重要的问题：
08:18
ushered in by the industrial age,
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1802
08:20
where, for the first time, institutions had become
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2358
随着组织体系的开始增大和权力的不断集中，
08:22
so large and centralized
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人们开始无法进行监控
08:24
that they were no longer able to monitor
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1828
08:26
and therefore control each one
of their individual members,
of their individual members,
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也无法控制到每一个组织成员
08:29
and the solution that he devised
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1881
边沁的解决方案是
08:31
was an architectural design
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一个建筑学设计
08:33
originally intended to be implemented in prisons
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2716
本来是为了加强监狱的
08:36
that he called the panopticon,
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他称之为全景监狱
08:38
the primary attribute of which was the construction
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其主要特征是将一个巨大的塔
建立在组织机构的中间
建立在组织机构的中间
08:40
of an enormous tower in the center of the institution
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08:43
where whoever controlled the institution
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也就是统治者所在的地方
08:46
could at any moment watch any of the inmates,
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这样统治者就可以随时看到其中的居民
08:48
although they couldn't watch all of them at all times.
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虽然他不能一直看着所有的人
08:52
And crucial to this design
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这个设计的关键处在于
08:54
was that the inmates could not actually
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系统内的居民无法
08:55
see into the panopticon, into the tower,
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看到塔的内部
08:58
and so they never knew
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所以他们永远不知道
09:00
if they were being watched or even when.
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自己是否或者什么时候是在被监视着的
09:02
And what made him so excited about this discovery
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这也是这个设计让边沁兴奋的原因
09:06
was that that would mean that the prisoners
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因为这意味着
09:08
would have to assume that they were being watched
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囚犯们会假定
他们随时随地是被监视着的
09:11
at any given moment,
219
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1685
09:12
which would be the ultimate enforcer
220
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这种假定成为了顺从和服从的终极实施者
09:14
for obedience and compliance.
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3678
09:18
The 20th-century French philosopher Michel Foucault
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二十世纪法国哲学家米歇尔 福柯
09:21
realized that that model could be used
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意识到这个模型不仅可以用于监狱
09:23
not just for prisons but for every institution
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它可以用于任何控制人类行为的机构：
09:26
that seeks to control human behavior:
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1950
09:28
schools, hospitals, factories, workplaces.
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学校、医院、工厂、工作场所
09:31
And what he said was that this mindset,
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2198
而且他说这种思维模式
09:33
this framework discovered by Bentham,
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本沁发明的这种结构
09:35
was the key means of societal control
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是现代西方社会进行社会控制的主要手段
09:39
for modern, Western societies,
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2002
09:41
which no longer need
231
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1774
让社会不再需要公然的使用暴政的武器
09:42
the overt weapons of tyranny —
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1907
09:44
punishing or imprisoning or killing dissidents,
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－惩罚，或者投送监狱，或者处死异议者，
09:47
or legally compelling loyalty to a particular party —
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3314
或者合法地强迫一个政党对其忠诚－
09:50
because mass surveillance creates
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因为大量的监视
09:52
a prison in the mind
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会在人脑中形成一个囚犯
09:55
that is a much more subtle
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1843
一个更加细微的
09:57
though much more effective means
238
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1889
但更加有效的
09:59
of fostering compliance with social norms
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力量让人服从社会规范
10:02
or with social orthodoxy,
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1462
或者社会正统
10:03
much more effective
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这是暴力手段远不能及的
10:05
than brute force could ever be.
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3125
关于监视和隐私，最形象的文学表达
是 乔治 奥威尔的小说《1984》
是 乔治 奥威尔的小说《1984》
10:08
The most iconic work of literature about surveillance
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10:11
and privacy is the George Orwell novel "1984,"
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3550
10:14
which we all learn in school, and
therefore it's almost become a cliche.
therefore it's almost become a cliche.
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3467
我们在学校都学过，它都快成了陈词滥调了
10:18
In fact, whenever you bring it up
in a debate about surveillance,
in a debate about surveillance,
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事实上，在关于监视的讨论中
不论什么时候提到本书
不论什么时候提到本书
10:20
people instantaneously dismiss it
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人们都立即忽略它,
10:22
as inapplicable, and what they say is,
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2302
认为它行不通，他们说：
“在《1984》里人们家里都是监视器，
10:24
"Oh, well in '1984,' there were
monitors in people's homes,
monitors in people's homes,
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3283
10:28
they were being watched at every given moment,
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2165
他们无时无刻不被看着，
10:30
and that has nothing to do with
the surveillance state that we face."
the surveillance state that we face."
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这和我们所面对的国家监控是不一样的.”
10:34
That is an actual fundamental misapprehension
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这其实是对奥威尔在《1984》里提出的警告
从根本上的误解
从根本上的误解
10:37
of the warnings that Orwell issued in "1984."
253
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2701
10:39
The warning that he was issuing
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1651
他所发出的警告
10:41
was about a surveillance state
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其实不是关于国家随时随地在监视人们
10:43
not that monitored everybody at all times,
256
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2164
10:45
but where people were aware that they could
257
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2053
而是人们在任何时候都知道他们是被监视着的
10:47
be monitored at any given moment.
258
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1629
10:49
Here is how Orwell's narrator, Winston Smith,
259
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3074
这是温斯顿 史密斯，奥威尔小所里的叙述者，
10:52
described the surveillance system
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2040
所描述的他们面对的监控系统：
10:54
that they faced:
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1398
10:55
"There was, of course, no way of knowing
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2427
“当然，你不可能任何时刻都知道你在被监视。”
10:57
whether you were being watched
at any given moment."
at any given moment."
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2317
11:00
He went on to say,
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1451
他接着说：
11:01
"At any rate, they could plug in your wire
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1711
“无论如何，他们随时可以给你插上电线。
11:03
whenever they wanted to.
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1709
11:05
You had to live, did live,
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2579
你必须，也确实活在一个渐渐变成本能的习惯里，
11:07
from habit that became instinct,
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2253
11:09
in the assumption that every sound you made
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2495
习惯去假定你发出的任何声音都会被听到
11:12
was overheard and except in darkness
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2190
除了在黑暗中被仔细审查的时候。”
11:14
every movement scrutinized."
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2739
11:17
The Abrahamic religions similarly posit
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3346
亚伯拉罕诸教也有类似的设定
11:20
that there's an invisible, all-knowing authority
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2943
有一个无形的、无所不知的权威
11:23
who, because of its omniscience,
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1743
因为它的全知
11:25
always watches whatever you're doing,
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1896
它总是在看你在做什么
11:27
which means you never have a private moment,
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2773
意思就是你从来没有一刻是私有的
11:30
the ultimate enforcer
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1684
也就是让你服从它的命令的最终执行者
11:31
for obedience to its dictates.
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2990
11:34
What all of these seemingly disparate works
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3404
这些看似不同的手段
11:38
recognize, the conclusion that they all reach,
280
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2786
其实都归于相同的结论
11:40
is that a society in which people
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2322
一个永远在监视人们的社会
11:43
can be monitored at all times
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2307
11:45
is a society that breeds conformity
283
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2655
是在培养一致、顺从、和屈服
11:48
and obedience and submission,
284
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2242
11:50
which is why every tyrant,
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1511
这也是为什么每一个暴君
11:52
the most overt to the most subtle,
286
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2082
从公然施暴的到暗中控制的
11:54
craves that system.
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2263
都渴望这种制度
11:56
Conversely, even more importantly,
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2654
相反的，而且更重要的是
11:59
it is a realm of privacy,
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2440
在这样一个私人的空间里，
12:01
the ability to go somewhere where we can think
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3010
我们在里面可以思考，
12:04
and reason and interact and speak
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3158
辩论，互动，和交谈
12:07
without the judgmental eyes
of others being cast upon us,
of others being cast upon us,
292
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3654
远离别人投来的批判的目光
12:11
in which creativity and exploration
293
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3543
只有创新、探索和异议可以存在
12:14
and dissent exclusively reside,
294
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3028
12:17
and that is the reason why,
295
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1821
这就是为什么
12:19
when we allow a society to exist
296
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2576
我们允许这样一个，
让我们受到持续监控的社会存在
让我们受到持续监控的社会存在
12:22
in which we're subject to constant monitoring,
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2163
12:24
we allow the essence of human freedom
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2977
允许人类自由的本质惨遭残疾
12:27
to be severely crippled.
299
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2951
12:30
The last point I want to observe about this mindset,
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3122
我想说的最后一点是
12:33
the idea that only people who
are doing something wrong
are doing something wrong
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1925
这种认为只有做了错事的人
12:35
have things to hide and therefore
reasons to care about privacy,
reasons to care about privacy,
302
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3882
才想隐藏，才关心隐私的思维模式
12:39
is that it entrenches two very destructive messages,
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4006
它确立了两个非常有害的信息
12:43
two destructive lessons,
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2028
两个破坏性的训诫
12:45
the first of which is that
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1756
第一个是
12:47
the only people who care about privacy,
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2120
只有那些关心隐私的人
12:49
the only people who will seek out privacy,
307
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2056
只有那些想得到隐私的人
12:51
are by definition bad people.
308
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4075
被定义为坏人
12:55
This is a conclusion that we should have
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2132
这是一个我们应该用各种理由避免的结论
12:57
all kinds of reasons for avoiding,
310
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2528
12:59
the most important of which is that when you say,
311
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2752
这其中最重要的是
13:02
"somebody who is doing bad things,"
312
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2377
当你说“那个人在做坏事”时
13:05
you probably mean things
like plotting a terrorist attack
like plotting a terrorist attack
313
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2837
你可能是指谋划恐怖袭击
13:07
or engaging in violent criminality,
314
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2041
或参与暴力犯罪之类的事
13:09
a much narrower conception
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2540
这个概念比行使权力的人所指的“做坏事”要狭窄的多
13:12
of what people who wield power mean
316
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2452
13:14
when they say, "doing bad things."
317
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2050
13:17
For them, "doing bad things" typically means
318
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2307
对他们来说，“做坏事”基本上意思是
13:19
doing something that poses meaningful challenges
319
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3071
做对自己的权利形成一定挑战的事
13:22
to the exercise of our own power.
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3105
13:25
The other really destructive
321
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1950
另一个破坏性的
13:27
and, I think, even more insidious lesson
322
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1908
而且我认为更加阴险的训诫
13:29
that comes from accepting this mindset
323
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2779
来自于接受这种思维模式
13:32
is there's an implicit bargain
324
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2766
这其中暗含一个交易
13:34
that people who accept this mindset have accepted,
325
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3344
接受这种思维模式的人同时也接受这个交易
13:38
and that bargain is this:
326
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1455
这个交易就是：
13:39
If you're willing to render yourself
327
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1972
只要你愿意让自己
13:41
sufficiently harmless,
328
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2102
对那些行使政治权利的人毫无伤害、毫无威胁
13:43
sufficiently unthreatening
329
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2170
13:45
to those who wield political power,
330
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1882
13:47
then and only then can you be free
331
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3036
那么，也只有这样，你才就能够远离被监视的危险
13:50
of the dangers of surveillance.
332
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2108
只有那些唱反调的
13:52
It's only those who are dissidents,
333
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2385
13:55
who challenge power,
334
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1481
挑战权力的人
13:56
who have something to worry about.
335
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1812
有需要担心的事情
13:58
There are all kinds of reasons why we
should want to avoid that lesson as well.
should want to avoid that lesson as well.
336
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3407
我们同样有各种各样的理由拒绝这个训诫
14:02
You may be a person who, right now,
337
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2238
你也许此时此刻
14:04
doesn't want to engage in that behavior,
338
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2072
不想参与到那些行为之中
14:06
but at some point in the future you might.
339
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2455
但也许将来什么时候你就会了
14:08
Even if you're somebody who decides
340
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1674
就算你决定
14:10
that you never want to,
341
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1765
你永远不会
14:12
the fact that there are other people
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1634
也会有其他人
14:13
who are willing to and able to resist
343
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2204
想要也能够反抗
14:16
and be adversarial to those in power —
344
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2034
和敌对那些权力之中的人
14:18
dissidents and journalists
345
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1534
比如政见不同的人，记者，
14:19
and activists and a whole range of others —
346
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2088
积极分子，还有其他很多人
14:21
is something that brings us all collective good
347
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2494
这是会给我们带来集体的好处的
14:24
that we should want to preserve.
348
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2978
是我们所想要保护的
14:27
Equally critical is that the measure
349
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2094
平等的批判是衡量一个社会自由程度的标尺
14:29
of how free a society is
350
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2263
14:31
is not how it treats its good,
351
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2150
不是看这个社会怎样对待好的、顺从它的公民
14:33
obedient, compliant citizens,
352
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2463
14:36
but how it treats its dissidents
353
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1840
而是看它如何对待政见不同的人
14:38
and those who resist orthodoxy.
354
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3115
以及那些反抗正统的人
14:41
But the most important reason
355
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1597
但是最重要的原因是
14:42
is that a system of mass surveillance
356
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2401
一个大量监视的制度
14:45
suppresses our own freedom in all sorts of ways.
357
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2617
会以各种方式压制我们的自由
14:47
It renders off-limits
358
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1801
它使我们的公众行为选择受到限制
14:49
all kinds of behavioral choices
359
877571
2006
14:51
without our even knowing that it's happened.
360
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3553
而且我们对此甚至全然不知
14:55
The renowned socialist activist Rosa Luxemburg
361
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2482
著名社会主义积极分子罗莎 卢森堡
14:57
once said, "He who does not move
362
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2493
曾经说过：“如果你不动，
你是不会发现身上的锁链的。”
你是不会发现身上的锁链的。”
15:00
does not notice his chains."
363
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3356
15:03
We can try and render the chains
364
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1689
我们可以试着粉饰这些大量的、无形的监视的锁链
15:05
of mass surveillance invisible or undetectable,
365
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3089
15:08
but the constraints that it imposes on us
366
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2666
但它对我们施加的限制不会有任何减少
15:10
do not become any less potent.
367
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2545
15:13
Thank you very much.
368
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1608
非常感谢
15:15
(Applause)
369
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1431
（掌声）
谢谢
15:16
Thank you.
370
904489
1507
（掌声）
15:17
(Applause)
371
905996
4897
15:22
Thank you.
372
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2387
谢谢
15:25
(Applause)
373
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2842
（掌声）
15:31
Bruno Giussani: Glenn, thank you.
374
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2292
布鲁诺 朱萨尼：格伦，非常感谢
15:33
The case is rather convincing, I have to say,
375
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2289
我必须说你的演讲十分有说服力
15:35
but I want to bring you back
376
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1565
但是我想回到十六个月前
15:37
to the last 16 months and to Edward Snowden
377
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3351
关于爱德华斯诺登我有几个问题
如果你不介意的话
如果你不介意的话
15:40
for a few questions, if you don't mind.
378
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2065
15:42
The first one is personal to you.
379
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2488
第一个问题对你来说比较私人
我们都看到了你的同伴大卫米兰达
在伦敦被捕的消息，以及他受到的磨难
在伦敦被捕的消息，以及他受到的磨难
15:45
We have all read about the arrest of your partner,
380
933370
3041
15:48
David Miranda in London, and other difficulties,
381
936411
3310
15:51
but I assume that
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2084
但是我认为
15:53
in terms of personal engagement and risk,
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3356
就个人参与和风险来说
你身上的压力也不轻
15:57
that the pressure on you is not that easy
384
945161
1804
15:58
to take on the biggest sovereign
organizations in the world.
organizations in the world.
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2945
承担着世界上最大的独立主权组织
16:01
Tell us a little bit about that.
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2435
给我们介绍一下吧
格林沃德：你知道吗，我认为
人们对于这件事的勇气是会传染的
人们对于这件事的勇气是会传染的
16:04
Glenn Greenwald: You know, I think
one of the things that happens
one of the things that happens
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1655
16:06
is that people's courage in this regard
388
954000
1932
16:07
gets contagious,
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1712
所以即使我以及其他和我一起工作的记者们
知道事情的危险性
知道事情的危险性
16:09
and so although I and the other
journalists with whom I was working
journalists with whom I was working
390
957644
3463
16:13
were certainly aware of the risk —
391
961107
1536
16:14
the United States continues to be
the most powerful country in the world
the most powerful country in the world
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2722
美国仍然是世界上最强大的国家
而且它不希望
16:17
and doesn't appreciate it when you
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965365
1998
你在网上任意泄露他大量的机密
16:19
disclose thousands of their secrets
394
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1922
16:21
on the Internet at will —
395
969285
2511
看着一个29岁的
16:23
seeing somebody who is a 29-year-old
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3469
生长于普通家庭环境的普通人
16:27
ordinary person who grew up in
397
975265
2019
16:29
a very ordinary environment
398
977284
2313
16:31
exercise the degree of principled
courage that Edward Snowden risked,
courage that Edward Snowden risked,
399
979597
3723
用高度有原则的勇气承担着
像爱德华 斯诺登所承担的这样的风险
像爱德华 斯诺登所承担的这样的风险
16:35
knowing that he was going to go
to prison for the rest of his life
to prison for the rest of his life
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2220
明知道他的后半生会在监狱中度过
16:37
or that his life would unravel,
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985540
1782
或者他的生活会就此结束
16:39
inspired me and inspired other journalists
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987322
1975
却激励着我，激励着其他的记者
16:41
and inspired, I think, people around the world,
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989297
1823
激励着，我想，全世界的人
16:43
including future whistleblowers,
404
991120
1688
包括将来的告密者
16:44
to realize that they can engage
in that kind of behavior as well.
in that kind of behavior as well.
405
992808
3515
让他们意识到他们一样可与参与进来
16:48
BG: I'm curious about your
relationship with Ed Snowden,
relationship with Ed Snowden,
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2486
朱萨尼：我很好奇你和爱德 斯诺登的关系
16:50
because you have spoken with him a lot,
407
998809
3181
因为你多次提到他
而且你肯定会继续说到他
16:53
and you certainly continue doing so,
408
1001990
1763
但是在你的书里，你不会叫他“爱德华”
16:55
but in your book, you never call him Edward,
409
1003753
2636
16:58
nor Ed, you say "Snowden." How come?
410
1006389
3460
或者爱德，你叫他“斯诺登”，为什么？
17:01
GG: You know, I'm sure that's something
411
1009849
1644
格林沃德：你知道吗，我确定这是
心理学家们要研究的事情（笑声）
心理学家们要研究的事情（笑声）
17:03
for a team of psychologists to examine.
(Laughter)
(Laughter)
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3331
我不是很确定。我觉得原因是
17:06
I don't really know. The reason I think that,
413
1014824
3589
17:10
one of the important objectives that he actually had,
414
1018413
3554
他的一个很重要的目的
一个，我想，最重要的策略是
17:13
one of his, I think, most important tactics,
415
1021967
2336
他知道如果要从他的启示录本身转移注意力
17:16
was that he knew that one of the ways
416
1024303
2207
17:18
to distract attention from the
substance of the revelations
substance of the revelations
417
1026510
2690
17:21
would be to try and personalize the focus on him,
418
1029200
2650
就是将注意力集中在他自己身上
17:23
and for that reason, he stayed out of the media.
419
1031850
2067
因此他一直远离媒体
17:25
He tried not to ever have his personal life
420
1033917
2509
他努力不让任何他的个人生活收到查问
17:28
subject to examination,
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1679
所以我觉得叫他斯诺登
17:30
and so I think calling him Snowden
422
1038105
2714
17:32
is a way of just identifying him
as this important historical actor
as this important historical actor
423
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3574
是一种视他为一个重要的历史人物
17:36
rather than trying to personalize him in a way
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1872
而不是将他个人化
17:38
that might distract attention from the substance.
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1046265
2880
从而导致分散对事件本身的注意力
17:41
Moderator: So his revelations, your analysis,
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1049145
1457
朱萨尼：所以他的启示录，你的分析,
17:42
the work of other journalists,
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1050602
1776
以及其他记者的文章
17:44
have really developed the debate,
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3000
已经发起一个辩论
17:47
and many governments, for example, have reacted,
429
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2128
而且很多政府，比如，已经做出回应
17:49
including in Brazil, with projects and programs
430
1057506
2604
包括巴西，提出项目和方案
17:52
to reshape a little bit the design of the Internet, etc.
431
1060110
2854
对互联网的设计做出一点修改，等等
17:54
There are a lot of things going on in that sense.
432
1062964
2752
这样说来很多事情都在进行中
17:57
But I'm wondering, for you personally,
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1065716
2270
我在想，对你个人来说
17:59
what is the endgame?
434
1067986
1651
什么才是最后的终结？
18:01
At what point will you think,
435
1069637
1633
怎么样才可以说
18:03
well, actually, we've succeeded
in moving the dial?
in moving the dial?
436
1071270
3192
我们成功地转动了装盘？
18:06
GG: Well, I mean, the endgame for me as a journalist
437
1074462
2278
格林沃德：我想终结对于我，
一个记者来说，很简单
一个记者来说，很简单
18:08
is very simple, which is to make sure
438
1076740
2443
就是确保每条新闻有报道价值
18:11
that every single document that's newsworthy
439
1079183
2012
应该公开的信息得到公开
18:13
and that ought to be disclosed
440
1081195
1646
18:14
ends up being disclosed,
441
1082841
1480
18:16
and that secrets that should never
have been kept in the first place
have been kept in the first place
442
1084321
2037
不应该成为秘密的秘密最终被揭开
18:18
end up uncovered.
443
1086358
1475
18:19
To me, that's the essence of journalism
444
1087833
1847
对我来说这就是记者的本质
18:21
and that's what I'm committed to doing.
445
1089680
1527
也是我致力于做的事情
18:23
As somebody who finds mass surveillance odious
446
1091207
2474
一些人很厌恶政府的监视
18:25
for all the reasons I just talked about and a lot more,
447
1093681
2187
原因就像我之前讲到的那样，甚至更多
18:27
I mean, I look at this as work that will never end
448
1095868
2526
我的意思是，我把这看作一份没有终结的工作
18:30
until governments around the world
449
1098394
2177
直到全世界的政府不会再限制并且监视所有的人
18:32
are no longer able to subject entire populations
450
1100571
2619
18:35
to monitoring and surveillance
451
1103190
1486
18:36
unless they convince some court or some entity
452
1104676
2589
除非他们可以说服法院或其他机构
18:39
that the person they've targeted
453
1107265
1722
去相信他们监视的对象真的做了错事
18:40
has actually done something wrong.
454
1108987
2591
18:43
To me, that's the way that
privacy can be rejuvenated.
privacy can be rejuvenated.
455
1111578
3235
在我看来，这样，隐私才能是鲜活的。
18:46
BG: So Snowden is very,
as we've seen at TED,
as we've seen at TED,
456
1114813
2346
朱萨尼：所以斯诺登，在我们TED的讲台上看来，
18:49
is very articulate in presenting and portraying himself
457
1117159
2768
是非常明确地表达自己的民主观念和民主原则的
18:51
as a defender of democratic values
458
1119927
2280
18:54
and democratic principles.
459
1122207
1713
18:55
But then, many people really
find it difficult to believe
find it difficult to believe
460
1123920
3028
但是后来，很多人不相信这是他唯一的动力
18:58
that those are his only motivations.
461
1126948
2402
19:01
They find it difficult to believe
462
1129350
1478
他们不相信这之中没有钱的掺入
19:02
that there was no money involved,
463
1130828
1621
19:04
that he didn't sell some of those secrets,
464
1132449
1911
他们不相信他没有把那些机密卖给其他国家
19:06
even to China and to Russia,
465
1134360
1829
甚至包括中国和俄罗斯
19:08
which are clearly not the best friends
466
1136189
2544
这两个明显不是和美国的很友好的国家
19:10
of the United States right now.
467
1138733
2169
19:12
And I'm sure many people in the room
468
1140902
1706
而且我相信在坐的很多人
19:14
are wondering the same question.
469
1142608
2270
都有同样的疑问
19:16
Do you consider it possible there is
470
1144878
1883
你认不认为也许斯诺登的某一面
19:18
that part of Snowden we've not seen yet?
471
1146761
2612
我们谁都没有见过
19:21
GG: No, I consider that absurd and idiotic.
472
1149373
3181
格林沃德：不，我认为这太愚蠢而且荒唐了
19:24
(Laughter) If you wanted to,
473
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2414
（笑声）如果你想
19:26
and I know you're just playing devil's advocate,
474
1154968
2462
我知道你只是在故意唱反调
19:29
but if you wanted to sell
475
1157430
3211
但如果你真的想
19:32
secrets to another country,
476
1160641
1906
把机密卖给别的国家
19:34
which he could have done and become
477
1162547
1717
而且如果他真的卖了
他会变得非常有钱
19:36
extremely rich doing so,
478
1164264
1646
那他不会想要把那些机密
19:37
the last thing you would
do is take those secrets
do is take those secrets
479
1165910
1981
19:39
and give them to journalists and
ask journalists to publish them,
ask journalists to publish them,
480
1167891
2744
拿给记者来发表
19:42
because it makes those secrets worthless.
481
1170635
2026
因为这样做会让那些机密变得不值钱
19:44
People who want to enrich themselves
482
1172661
1648
想发财的人
19:46
do it secretly by selling
secrets to the government,
secrets to the government,
483
1174309
1970
会悄悄地把机密卖给政府
19:48
but I think there's one important point worth making,
484
1176279
1821
但是有一点值得提的是
19:50
which is, that accusation comes from
485
1178100
2238
那些指责来自美国政府
来自媒体里拥护各个政府的人
19:52
people in the U.S. government,
486
1180338
1832
19:54
from people in the media who are loyalists
487
1182170
2020
19:56
to these various governments,
488
1184190
1598
而且我认为很多时候人们指责别人：
19:57
and I think a lot of times when people make accusations like that about other people —
489
1185788
3148
他这样做肯定不是
20:00
"Oh, he can't really be doing this
490
1188936
1605
出于正当原因
20:02
for principled reasons,
491
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1665
他肯定有什么腐败或者不法的意图
20:04
he must have some corrupt, nefarious reason" —
492
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2242
20:06
they're saying a lot more about themselves
493
1194448
2107
他们其实更多的是在说他们自己
20:08
than they are the target of their accusations,
494
1196555
1826
而不是他们指责的对象
20:10
because — (Applause) —
495
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4385
因为（掌声）
20:14
those people, the ones who make that accusation,
496
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2520
那些做出这些指责的人
20:17
they themselves never act
497
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1904
他们自己才只会出于腐败的原因做一些事情
20:19
for any reason other than corrupt reasons,
498
1207190
1922
20:21
so they assume
499
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1632
所以他们才会假设
所有人和他们一样
20:22
that everybody else is plagued by the same disease
500
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2632
都受卑鄙无情这种疾病困扰
20:25
of soullessness as they are,
501
1213376
2002
这就是他们的设想
20:27
and so that's the assumption.
502
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1871
（掌声）
20:29
(Applause)
503
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1627
20:30
BG: Glenn, thank you very much.
GG: Thank you very much.
GG: Thank you very much.
504
1218876
2484
朱萨尼：格伦，非常感谢
格林沃德：非常感谢
朱萨尼：格伦 格林沃德
20:33
BG: Glenn Greenwald.
505
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2332
（掌声）
20:35
(Applause)
506
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1114
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Glenn Greenwald - JournalistGlenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files.
Why you should listen
As one of the first journalists privy to NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden’s archives, Glenn Greenwald has a unique window into the inner workings of the NSA and Britain's GCHQ. A vocal advocate for civil liberties in the face of growing post-9/11 authoritarianism, Greenwald was a natural outlet for Snowden, who’d admired his combative writing style in Salon and elsewhere.
Since his original Guardian exposés of Snowden’s revelations, Pulitzer winner Greenwald continues to stoke public debate on surveillance and privacy both in the media, on The Intercept, and with his new book No Place to Hide -- and suggests that the there are more shocking revelations to come.
Glenn Greenwald | Speaker | TED.com