TEDGlobal 2014
Glenn Greenwald: Why privacy matters
格倫 格林沃德: 為什麼隱私很重要
Filmed:
Readability: 5.1
2,346,660 views
格倫 格林沃德是最早看到和報導愛德華 斯諾登檔案的記者之一。此檔案揭露美國廣泛監視人民。在這個演講裡格林沃德說服大家，即使你沒有做出必須隱藏的行為，你仍然應該重視隱私權。
Glenn Greenwald - Journalist
Glenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files. Full bio
Glenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
There is an entire genre of YouTube videos
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YouTube 裡有一整類這種影片
我敢肯定在場所有人都有和
影片裡一樣的經歷
影片裡一樣的經歷
00:15
devoted to an experience which
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00:17
I am certain that everyone in this room has had.
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它會找來一個人
00:20
It entails an individual who,
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00:22
thinking they're alone,
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讓他覺得只有他自己在場
00:23
engages in some expressive behavior —
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然後讓他做一些表達自己的行為
00:27
wild singing, gyrating dancing,
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比如大聲唱歌，誇張地跳舞，
00:29
some mild sexual activity —
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或者一些性感動作
當這個人發現他並非獨處
00:32
only to discover that, in fact, they are not alone,
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00:34
that there is a person watching and lurking,
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其實有人在看偷著他時
00:37
the discovery of which causes them
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這個發現會使他立刻停止正在做的事情
00:39
to immediately cease what they were doing
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00:41
in horror.
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並且非常驚恐
00:43
The sense of shame and humiliation
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他們臉上很明顯的是羞辱和丟臉的表情
00:45
in their face is palpable.
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00:47
It's the sense of,
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顯然
00:49
"This is something I'm willing to do
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這些動作是在沒有別人看時
00:51
only if no one else is watching."
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才願意做的
00:54
This is the crux of the work
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這正是我在最近16個月內
所專心研究的重點：
所專心研究的重點：
00:57
on which I have been singularly focused
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00:59
for the last 16 months,
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01:01
the question of why privacy matters,
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為什麼隱私這麼重要？
01:03
a question that has arisen
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一個引起世界辯論的話題
01:05
in the context of a global debate,
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01:08
enabled by the revelations of Edward Snowden
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它由愛德華 斯諾登的揭密而引起
01:10
that the United States and its partners,
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他揭露美國和其同盟
01:13
unbeknownst to the entire world,
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瞞著整個世界
01:15
has converted the Internet,
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把網路
01:17
once heralded as an unprecedented tool
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這個曾經預示著民主和自由的
前所未有的工具
前所未有的工具
01:20
of liberation and democratization,
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01:23
into an unprecedented zone
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轉變成前所未有的用來
肆意監視大眾的空間
肆意監視大眾的空間
01:25
of mass, indiscriminate surveillance.
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01:29
There is a very common sentiment
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在這場辯論中有一個普遍的論點
01:31
that arises in this debate,
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01:32
even among people who are uncomfortable
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甚至包括那些對於廣泛監視
感到很不舒服的人
感到很不舒服的人
01:34
with mass surveillance, which says
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01:36
that there is no real harm
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認為這種大範圍的侵入並沒有實質的傷害
01:38
that comes from this large-scale invasion
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01:41
because only people who are engaged in bad acts
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因為只有做壞事的人才有理由想隱藏
01:44
have a reason to want to hide
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才會在乎他們的隱私
01:46
and to care about their privacy.
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01:49
This worldview is implicitly grounded
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這種世界觀隱含著一個議題
01:52
in the proposition that there are
two kinds of people in the world,
two kinds of people in the world,
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這個世界上有兩種人：
好人和壞人
好人和壞人
01:54
good people and bad people.
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01:56
Bad people are those who plot terrorist attacks
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壞人是那些圖謀恐怖襲擊或者
參與暴力犯罪的人
參與暴力犯罪的人
01:59
or who engage in violent criminality
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02:00
and therefore have reasons to
want to hide what they're doing,
want to hide what they're doing,
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所以他們有理由想要隱藏他們做的事情
02:04
have reasons to care about their privacy.
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有理由要保護他們的隱私
02:06
But by contrast, good people
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而相反的
好人是那些每天去工作
02:08
are people who go to work,
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02:10
come home, raise their children, watch television.
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回家，帶孩子，看電視的人
02:13
They use the Internet not to plot bombing attacks
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他們不會用網路來策劃炸彈襲擊
02:16
but to read the news or exchange recipes
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而是為了看新聞，交流食譜，
02:18
or to plan their kids' Little League games,
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或者計劃孩子的少年棒球比賽
02:21
and those people are doing nothing wrong
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這些人沒做任何壞事
02:23
and therefore have nothing to hide
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所以沒有什麼好隱藏的
02:25
and no reason to fear
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也沒有理由害怕政府監視他們
02:27
the government monitoring them.
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02:30
The people who are actually saying that
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說這些話的人
02:32
are engaged in a very extreme act
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其實是在極大的自我貶低
02:34
of self-deprecation.
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02:36
What they're really saying is,
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他們其實是在說
02:38
"I have agreed to make myself
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我同意讓我自己成為
02:40
such a harmless and unthreatening
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一個不會傷害他人，沒有威脅性，
又無趣的人
又無趣的人
02:43
and uninteresting person that I actually don't fear
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這樣我就不會害怕政府知道我在做什麼
02:46
having the government know what it is that I'm doing."
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02:49
This mindset has found what I think
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我發現這種心態
02:51
is its purest expression
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02:53
in a 2009 interview with
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和 2009 年谷歌 CEO
艾瑞克 施密特接受採訪時
艾瑞克 施密特接受採訪時
02:55
the longtime CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, who,
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02:58
when asked about all the different ways his company
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回答關於他的公司以各種方式
03:01
is causing invasions of privacy
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侵犯全世界幾億人的隱私的問題時
03:03
for hundreds of millions of people around the world,
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所做出的回應是純然一致的
03:06
said this: He said,
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03:08
"If you're doing something that you don't want
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他說，如果你在做的事情是你不希望
讓別人知道的
讓別人知道的
03:09
other people to know,
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03:11
maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."
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那麼或許你從開始就不應該做這件事
03:15
Now, there's all kinds of things to say about
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對於這種理念有各種各樣的說法
03:17
that mentality,
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03:20
the first of which is that the people who say that,
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第一種說法認為那些說隱私並不重要的人
03:23
who say that privacy isn't really important,
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03:25
they don't actually believe it,
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並不真正相信隱私不重要
03:28
and the way you know that
they don't actually believe it
they don't actually believe it
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怎樣知道他們並不相信呢？
03:30
is that while they say with their
words that privacy doesn't matter,
words that privacy doesn't matter,
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在他們說隱私並不重要的同時
03:33
with their actions, they take all kinds of steps
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他們的行為卻是想方設法
03:36
to safeguard their privacy.
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保衛他們的隱私
03:39
They put passwords on their email
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他們給郵件設上密碼
03:40
and their social media accounts,
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還有社交網絡帳號
03:42
they put locks on their bedroom
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他們給房門和廁所門上鎖
03:44
and bathroom doors,
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03:45
all steps designed to prevent other people
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通過各種方法防止他人
03:48
from entering what they consider their private realm
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進入他們自認的私人空間
03:51
and knowing what it is that they
don't want other people to know.
don't want other people to know.
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其實他們很清楚他們不想讓別人
知道的事情
知道的事情
03:55
The very same Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google,
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同樣的，谷歌CEO艾瑞克 施密特
03:58
ordered his employees at Google
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命令他在谷歌的員工
04:00
to cease speaking with the online
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停止一切與網路雜誌 CNET
（科技資訊網）的交流
（科技資訊網）的交流
04:02
Internet magazine CNET
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04:05
after CNET published an article
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因為 CNET 發表了一篇文章
04:07
full of personal, private information
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透露了大量的艾瑞克 施密特的個人信息
04:09
about Eric Schmidt,
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04:11
which it obtained exclusively
through Google searches
through Google searches
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這些信息其實是完全通過谷歌搜索
04:14
and using other Google products. (Laughter)
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和其他谷歌產品獲得的（笑聲）
相同的情況也發生在 Facebook 的 CEO
馬克 扎克伯格身上
馬克 扎克伯格身上
04:18
This same division can be seen
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04:20
with the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg,
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04:22
who in an infamous interview in 2010
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他在 2010 年那個聲名狼藉的採訪上
04:26
pronounced that privacy is no longer
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斷言隱私已經不再是一個“社會規範”
04:28
a "social norm."
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04:31
Last year, Mark Zuckerberg and his new wife
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去年，馬克 扎克伯格和他的新任妻子
04:34
purchased not only their own house
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在帕洛阿爾托（美國舊金附近城市）
不止購買了他們的房子，
不止購買了他們的房子，
04:36
but also all four adjacent houses in Palo Alto
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並且買了相鄰四個房子
總值三千萬美元
總值三千萬美元
04:40
for a total of 30 million dollars
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04:41
in order to ensure that they enjoyed a zone of privacy
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為了確保他們享有足夠的私人空間
04:45
that prevented other people from monitoring
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防止人們監視他們的私人生活
04:47
what they do in their personal lives.
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在過去的十六個月，
我一直在世界各地遊說這個問題
我一直在世界各地遊說這個問題
04:51
Over the last 16 months, as I've
debated this issue around the world,
debated this issue around the world,
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04:53
every single time somebody has said to me,
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每當有人跟我說
04:56
"I don't really worry about invasions of privacy
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”我真的不擔心隱私受到侵犯，
04:57
because I don't have anything to hide."
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因為我沒有什麼需要隱藏的。”
04:59
I always say the same thing to them.
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我總是對他們回答一樣的話
05:01
I get out a pen, I write down my email address.
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我拿出一支筆，寫下我的郵箱地址
05:03
I say, "Here's my email address.
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我說：“這是我的郵箱，
05:05
What I want you to do when you get home
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我希望回家之後把你所有郵箱賬號的
密碼發給我，
密碼發給我，
05:06
is email me the passwords
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05:08
to all of your email accounts,
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05:10
not just the nice, respectable work one in your name,
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不僅僅是你工作上用的那些
一本正經的郵箱
一本正經的郵箱
05:12
but all of them,
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我要所有的
05:14
because I want to be able to just troll through
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因為我就是想讀遍所有你的網上記錄
05:16
what it is you're doing online,
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05:18
read what I want to read and
publish whatever I find interesting.
publish whatever I find interesting.
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然後將我認為有趣的內容發表出來
05:20
After all, if you're not a bad person,
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畢竟你不是個壞人
你沒做什麼壞事
你沒做什麼壞事
05:22
if you're doing nothing wrong,
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05:24
you should have nothing to hide."
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你就沒什麼好隱藏的“
05:27
Not a single person has taken me up on that offer.
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沒有任何一個人接受我的提議
05:30
I check and — (Applause)
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我查過（掌聲）
05:34
I check that email account religiously all the time.
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我一直在認真的查看那個郵箱
05:38
It's a very desolate place.
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那裡一直很荒涼
05:41
And there's a reason for that,
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這是有原因的
05:43
which is that we as human beings,
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因為我們作為人類
05:45
even those of us who in words
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即使一些人嘴上否認隱私的重要性
05:47
disclaim the importance of our own privacy,
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05:49
instinctively understand
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但他們心裡很清楚它深遠的重要性
05:51
the profound importance of it.
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05:53
It is true that as human beings, we're social animals,
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事實上，作為人類，我們是社會性動物
05:56
which means we have a need for other people
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這意味著我們需要其他人
05:58
to know what we're doing and saying and thinking,
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知道我們在做什麼，說什麼，想什麼
06:01
which is why we voluntarily publish
information about ourselves online.
information about ourselves online.
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這也是為什麼我們自願的在網上
發佈自己的信息
發佈自己的信息
06:05
But equally essential to what it means
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但是和成為一個自由的、完整的人類
同等重要的是
同等重要的是
06:08
to be a free and fulfilled human being
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06:11
is to have a place that we can go
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我們需要有一個地方完全遠離
其他人批判的目光
其他人批判的目光
06:13
and be free of the judgmental eyes of other people.
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06:17
There's a reason why we seek that out,
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為什麼我們要找到這樣一個地方
原因是我們所有人
原因是我們所有人
06:19
and our reason is that all of us —
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06:22
not just terrorists and criminals, all of us —
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－並非只有那些恐怖分子者和罪犯，而是我們所有人－
06:25
have things to hide.
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都有想要隱藏的東西
06:27
There are all sorts of things that we do and think
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許多我們做的、想的各種各樣的事情
06:30
that we're willing to tell our physician
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我們只願意告訴自己的醫生,
06:33
or our lawyer or our psychologist or our spouse
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或者律師，或者心理醫生，
或者配偶，或者好朋友。
或者配偶，或者好朋友。
06:36
or our best friend that we would be mortified
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如果全世界都知道我們會覺得很囧
06:39
for the rest of the world to learn.
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06:41
We make judgments every single day
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我們每天都會判斷
06:43
about the kinds of things that we say and think and do
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某些我們說的、想的、做的某些事情
06:45
that we're willing to have other people know,
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我們願意讓別人知道
06:47
and the kinds of things that we say and think and do
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還有某些我們說的、想的、做的某些事情
06:49
that we don't want anyone else to know about.
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我們不願意讓別人知道
06:51
People can very easily in words claim
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人們可以很輕易地以言語宣稱
06:55
that they don't value their privacy,
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他們不在乎他們的隱私
06:57
but their actions negate the authenticity of that belief.
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但他們的行為卻在否定
他們所相信的真實性
他們所相信的真實性
07:02
Now, there's a reason why privacy is so craved
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這有一個原因為什麼人們如此
普遍地且本能地渴望隱私
普遍地且本能地渴望隱私
07:06
universally and instinctively.
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07:07
It isn't just a reflexive movement
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這不僅僅是個反射性動作
07:09
like breathing air or drinking water.
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像呼吸和喝水那樣
07:12
The reason is that when we're in a state
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原因是當在我們在一種狀態裡
07:14
where we can be monitored,
where we can be watched,
where we can be watched,
172
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2657
我們可能被監視著，被看著的時候
07:17
our behavior changes dramatically.
173
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我們的行為會有巨大的改變
07:20
The range of behavioral options that we consider
174
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我們所考量的不同行為的範圍
07:23
when we think we're being watched
175
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1808
在我們被觀察者的時候
07:25
severely reduce.
176
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2155
會大幅縮小
07:27
This is just a fact of human nature
177
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2215
這就是人類的本性的事實
07:29
that has been recognized in social science
178
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2288
已被社會科學、
07:31
and in literature and in religion
179
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1907
文學、宗教
07:33
and in virtually every field of discipline.
180
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2228
以及幾乎所有學科領域所公認
07:35
There are dozens of psychological studies
181
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2782
許多心理學研究證明
07:38
that prove that when somebody knows
182
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2551
當一個人知道他可能在被看著
07:41
that they might be watched,
183
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1569
07:42
the behavior they engage in
184
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1692
他的行為會尤其地順從
07:44
is vastly more conformist and compliant.
185
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3482
07:47
Human shame is a very powerful motivator,
186
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3345
人的羞恥心是一個強大的動力
07:51
as is the desire to avoid it,
187
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2911
以避免受辱
07:54
and that's the reason why people,
188
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1499
這就是為什麼
07:55
when they're in a state of
being watched, make decisions
being watched, make decisions
189
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2239
人們在被看著的情況下所做的決定
07:57
not that are the byproduct of their own agency
190
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3262
並非他們自己機體的副產品
08:01
but that are about the expectations
191
469230
2012
而是別人對他們的期望或者是
社會正統所要求的
社會正統所要求的
08:03
that others have of them
192
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1452
08:04
or the mandates of societal orthodoxy.
193
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4434
08:09
This realization was exploited most powerfully
194
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2867
對於這件現象的認識
被十八世紀的實用主義哲學家
杰裡米 邊沁為了務實的目的大為利用
杰裡米 邊沁為了務實的目的大為利用
08:11
for pragmatic ends by the 18th-
century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,
century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,
195
479995
4141
08:16
who set out to resolve an important problem
196
484136
2351
以解決了工業時期出現的一個
很重要的問題
很重要的問題
08:18
ushered in by the industrial age,
197
486487
1802
08:20
where, for the first time, institutions had become
198
488289
2358
就是當組織體系初次大幅擴張和
權力的集中以致於
權力的集中以致於
08:22
so large and centralized
199
490647
1997
人們無法進行監視
08:24
that they were no longer able to monitor
200
492644
1828
08:26
and therefore control each one
of their individual members,
of their individual members,
201
494472
2953
和控制到他們組織的每一個份子
08:29
and the solution that he devised
202
497425
1881
邊沁的解決方案是
08:31
was an architectural design
203
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2203
一個建築學設計
08:33
originally intended to be implemented in prisons
204
501509
2716
本來的目的是用於監獄
08:36
that he called the panopticon,
205
504225
2319
他稱之為全景監獄
08:38
the primary attribute of which was the construction
206
506544
2360
其主要特徵是將一個巨大的塔
建立在組織機構的中間
建立在組織機構的中間
08:40
of an enormous tower in the center of the institution
207
508904
3071
這樣組織的統治者就可以隨時監視
其中的任一個囚犯
其中的任一個囚犯
08:43
where whoever controlled the institution
208
511975
2148
08:46
could at any moment watch any of the inmates,
209
514123
2685
08:48
although they couldn't watch all of them at all times.
210
516808
3322
雖然他不能一直看著所有的人
08:52
And crucial to this design
211
520130
2055
這個設計的關鍵處在於
犯人無法看到塔的内部
08:54
was that the inmates could not actually
212
522185
1795
08:55
see into the panopticon, into the tower,
213
523980
2876
08:58
and so they never knew
214
526856
1672
所以他們永遠無法知道
09:00
if they were being watched or even when.
215
528528
2172
自己是否或者什麼時候是在被監視著的
09:02
And what made him so excited about this discovery
216
530700
3583
這個發現讓邊沁非常興奮
09:06
was that that would mean that the prisoners
217
534283
1873
因為這意味著囚犯們會假定
09:08
would have to assume that they were being watched
218
536156
3028
他們隨時隨地是被監視著的
09:11
at any given moment,
219
539184
1685
09:12
which would be the ultimate enforcer
220
540869
1878
這種假定成為了順從和服從的終極實施者
09:14
for obedience and compliance.
221
542747
3678
09:18
The 20th-century French philosopher Michel Foucault
222
546425
2925
二十世紀法國哲學家米歇爾 福柯
09:21
realized that that model could be used
223
549350
1925
意識到這個模型不僅可以用於監獄
09:23
not just for prisons but for every institution
224
551275
3115
它可以用於任何控制人類行為的機構
09:26
that seeks to control human behavior:
225
554390
1950
09:28
schools, hospitals, factories, workplaces.
226
556340
2875
學校、醫院、工廠、工作場所
09:31
And what he said was that this mindset,
227
559215
2198
而且他說這種思維模式
邊沁發明的這種結構
邊沁發明的這種結構
09:33
this framework discovered by Bentham,
228
561413
2426
09:35
was the key means of societal control
229
563839
3329
是現代西方社會進行社會控制的主要手段
09:39
for modern, Western societies,
230
567168
2002
09:41
which no longer need
231
569170
1774
讓社會不再需要公然的使用暴政的武器
09:42
the overt weapons of tyranny —
232
570944
1907
09:44
punishing or imprisoning or killing dissidents,
233
572851
2396
－懲罰，或者投送監獄，
或者處死異議者，
或者處死異議者，
09:47
or legally compelling loyalty to a particular party —
234
575247
3314
或者合法地強迫人民對一個政黨的忠誠
09:50
because mass surveillance creates
235
578561
2399
因為廣泛的監控
09:52
a prison in the mind
236
580960
2555
會在人腦中形成一個監獄
09:55
that is a much more subtle
237
583515
1843
這是一個非常微妙的
且更加有效的
且更加有效的
09:57
though much more effective means
238
585358
1889
09:59
of fostering compliance with social norms
239
587247
3049
使人服從社會規範
或者社會正統的方法
或者社會正統的方法
10:02
or with social orthodoxy,
240
590296
1462
這是暴力手段遠不能及的
10:03
much more effective
241
591758
1562
10:05
than brute force could ever be.
242
593320
3125
10:08
The most iconic work of literature about surveillance
243
596445
2818
關於監視和隱私，最標誌性的文學表達
是喬治 奧威爾的小說《1984》
是喬治 奧威爾的小說《1984》
10:11
and privacy is the George Orwell novel "1984,"
244
599263
3550
我們在學校都學過，它都快成了
陳詞濫調了
陳詞濫調了
10:14
which we all learn in school, and
therefore it's almost become a cliche.
therefore it's almost become a cliche.
245
602813
3467
10:18
In fact, whenever you bring it up
in a debate about surveillance,
in a debate about surveillance,
246
606280
2069
事實上，在關於監視的討論中
不論什麼時候提到本書
不論什麼時候提到本書
10:20
people instantaneously dismiss it
247
608349
2249
人們都立即忽略它
10:22
as inapplicable, and what they say is,
248
610598
2302
認為它行不通，他們說：
“在《1984》裡人們家裡都是監視器，
10:24
"Oh, well in '1984,' there were
monitors in people's homes,
monitors in people's homes,
249
612900
3283
10:28
they were being watched at every given moment,
250
616183
2165
他們無時無刻不被看著
10:30
and that has nothing to do with
the surveillance state that we face."
the surveillance state that we face."
251
618348
3962
這和我們所面對的國家監控是
不一樣的。”
不一樣的。”
10:34
That is an actual fundamental misapprehension
252
622310
2920
這其實是從根本上誤解奧威爾在《1984》裡提出的警告
10:37
of the warnings that Orwell issued in "1984."
253
625230
2701
10:39
The warning that he was issuing
254
627931
1651
他所發出的警告
10:41
was about a surveillance state
255
629582
1608
其實不是關於國家隨時隨地在監視人們
10:43
not that monitored everybody at all times,
256
631190
2164
10:45
but where people were aware that they could
257
633354
2053
而是人們知道他們可能隨時被監視着
10:47
be monitored at any given moment.
258
635407
1629
10:49
Here is how Orwell's narrator, Winston Smith,
259
637036
3074
這是溫斯頓 史密斯， 奧威爾小說的敘述者，
10:52
described the surveillance system
260
640110
2040
所描述的他們面對的監控系統：
10:54
that they faced:
261
642150
1398
10:55
"There was, of course, no way of knowing
262
643548
2427
“當然，你無從知道你何時在被監視著。”
10:57
whether you were being watched
at any given moment."
at any given moment."
263
645975
2317
11:00
He went on to say,
264
648292
1451
他接著說：
11:01
"At any rate, they could plug in your wire
265
649743
1711
“但是，他們隨時想要是都可以插上
監視你的電線。
監視你的電線。
11:03
whenever they wanted to.
266
651454
1709
11:05
You had to live, did live,
267
653163
2579
你必須，也確實地活在一個漸漸變成
本能的習慣裡，
本能的習慣裡，
11:07
from habit that became instinct,
268
655742
2253
11:09
in the assumption that every sound you made
269
657995
2495
假定你發出的任何聲音都會被聽到，
11:12
was overheard and except in darkness
270
660490
2190
和除了在黑暗中，你的所有的動作
被監視着。”
被監視着。”
11:14
every movement scrutinized."
271
662680
2739
11:17
The Abrahamic religions similarly posit
272
665419
3346
亞伯拉罕教派也有類似的斷定
有一個無形的、無所不知的權威
11:20
that there's an invisible, all-knowing authority
273
668765
2943
11:23
who, because of its omniscience,
274
671708
1743
因為祂的全知全能
11:25
always watches whatever you're doing,
275
673451
1896
總是在看你在做什麼
11:27
which means you never have a private moment,
276
675347
2773
意思就是你從來沒有一刻是私有的
11:30
the ultimate enforcer
277
678120
1684
這就是讓你對祂絕對服從最終執行者
11:31
for obedience to its dictates.
278
679804
2990
11:34
What all of these seemingly disparate works
279
682794
3404
這些看似不同的手段
11:38
recognize, the conclusion that they all reach,
280
686198
2786
最終的共同的結論是
11:40
is that a society in which people
281
688984
2322
一個人們隨時都在被監視的社會
11:43
can be monitored at all times
282
691306
2307
11:45
is a society that breeds conformity
283
693613
2655
是在培養一致、順從、和屈服
11:48
and obedience and submission,
284
696268
2242
11:50
which is why every tyrant,
285
698510
1511
這也是為什麼每一個暴君
11:52
the most overt to the most subtle,
286
700021
2082
從公然施暴的到暗中控制的
11:54
craves that system.
287
702103
2263
都渴望這種制度
11:56
Conversely, even more importantly,
288
704366
2654
相反的，而且更重要的是
11:59
it is a realm of privacy,
289
707020
2440
在一個有隱私的空間裡
12:01
the ability to go somewhere where we can think
290
709460
3010
我們可以去某處思考
12:04
and reason and interact and speak
291
712470
3158
辯論，互動，和發表言論
12:07
without the judgmental eyes
of others being cast upon us,
of others being cast upon us,
292
715628
3654
而沒有別人投來的批判的目光
12:11
in which creativity and exploration
293
719282
3543
只有在此創新、探索
和異議可以存在
12:14
and dissent exclusively reside,
294
722825
3028
12:17
and that is the reason why,
295
725853
1821
這就是為什麼
當我們允許一個
當我們允許一個
12:19
when we allow a society to exist
296
727674
2576
我們隨時被監控的社會存在
12:22
in which we're subject to constant monitoring,
297
730250
2163
12:24
we allow the essence of human freedom
298
732413
2977
我們就是容許人類自由的本質慘遭蹂躪
12:27
to be severely crippled.
299
735390
2951
12:30
The last point I want to observe about this mindset,
300
738341
3122
最後，我對這種心理的一個觀察是
12:33
the idea that only people who
are doing something wrong
are doing something wrong
301
741463
1925
這種認為只有做了錯事的人
12:35
have things to hide and therefore
reasons to care about privacy,
reasons to care about privacy,
302
743388
3882
才想隱藏，才關心隱私的思維模式
12:39
is that it entrenches two very destructive messages,
303
747270
4006
它確立了兩個非常有害的信息
12:43
two destructive lessons,
304
751276
2028
兩個破壞性的教導
12:45
the first of which is that
305
753304
1756
第一個是
12:47
the only people who care about privacy,
306
755060
2120
只有那些關心隱私的人
12:49
the only people who will seek out privacy,
307
757180
2056
只有那些想得到隱私的人
12:51
are by definition bad people.
308
759236
4075
被自然的被定義為壞人
12:55
This is a conclusion that we should have
309
763311
2132
這是一個我們應該用各種理由避免的結論
12:57
all kinds of reasons for avoiding,
310
765443
2528
12:59
the most important of which is that when you say,
311
767971
2752
其中最重要的是
當你說“那個人在做壞事”時
13:02
"somebody who is doing bad things,"
312
770723
2377
13:05
you probably mean things
like plotting a terrorist attack
like plotting a terrorist attack
313
773100
2837
你可能是指謀劃恐怖襲擊
13:07
or engaging in violent criminality,
314
775937
2041
或參與暴力犯罪之類的事
13:09
a much narrower conception
315
777978
2540
這個概念比行使權力的人所指的“做壞事”
要狹窄的多
要狹窄的多
13:12
of what people who wield power mean
316
780518
2452
13:14
when they say, "doing bad things."
317
782970
2050
13:17
For them, "doing bad things" typically means
318
785020
2307
對他們來說，“做壞事”基本上意思是
13:19
doing something that poses meaningful challenges
319
787327
3071
做對自己行使權利造成一定挑戰的事
13:22
to the exercise of our own power.
320
790398
3105
13:25
The other really destructive
321
793503
1950
另一個真正有破壞性的
而且我認為更加陰險的教導
而且我認為更加陰險的教導
13:27
and, I think, even more insidious lesson
322
795453
1908
13:29
that comes from accepting this mindset
323
797361
2779
來自於接受這種思維模式
13:32
is there's an implicit bargain
324
800140
2766
這其中暗含一個交易
13:34
that people who accept this mindset have accepted,
325
802906
3344
接受這種思維模式的人同時
也接受了這個交易
也接受了這個交易
13:38
and that bargain is this:
326
806250
1455
這個交易就是：
13:39
If you're willing to render yourself
327
807705
1972
只要你願意讓自己
13:41
sufficiently harmless,
328
809677
2102
對那些行使政治權利的人不造成
傷害或威脅
傷害或威脅
13:43
sufficiently unthreatening
329
811779
2170
13:45
to those who wield political power,
330
813949
1882
13:47
then and only then can you be free
331
815831
3036
那麼，也只有這樣，你才就能夠遠離開
被監視的危險
被監視的危險
13:50
of the dangers of surveillance.
332
818867
2108
13:52
It's only those who are dissidents,
333
820975
2385
而只有那些唱反調的
13:55
who challenge power,
334
823360
1481
挑戰權力的人
才需要擔心
才需要擔心
13:56
who have something to worry about.
335
824841
1812
13:58
There are all kinds of reasons why we
should want to avoid that lesson as well.
should want to avoid that lesson as well.
336
826653
3407
我們同樣有各種各樣的理由
要避免這個教導
要避免這個教導
14:02
You may be a person who, right now,
337
830060
2238
你也許此時此刻
14:04
doesn't want to engage in that behavior,
338
832298
2072
不想參與那些行為
14:06
but at some point in the future you might.
339
834370
2455
但未來的某個時候你有可能會
14:08
Even if you're somebody who decides
340
836825
1674
就算你是那些已下決心
永遠不會的人
永遠不會的人
14:10
that you never want to,
341
838499
1765
14:12
the fact that there are other people
342
840264
1634
也會有其他人
想要也能夠反抗
想要也能夠反抗
14:13
who are willing to and able to resist
343
841898
2204
14:16
and be adversarial to those in power —
344
844102
2034
和敵對那些權力之中的人
14:18
dissidents and journalists
345
846136
1534
比如政見不同的人，記者，
14:19
and activists and a whole range of others —
346
847670
2088
積極分子，還有其他很多人
14:21
is something that brings us all collective good
347
849758
2494
這是會給我們帶來集體的好處的
是我們所想要保護的
是我們所想要保護的
14:24
that we should want to preserve.
348
852252
2978
14:27
Equally critical is that the measure
349
855230
2094
同樣重要的是衡量一個社會自由程度
的標尺
的標尺
14:29
of how free a society is
350
857324
2263
14:31
is not how it treats its good,
351
859587
2150
不是看這個社會怎樣對待好的、
順從它的公民
順從它的公民
14:33
obedient, compliant citizens,
352
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2463
14:36
but how it treats its dissidents
353
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1840
而是看它如何對待不同意見的人
以及那些反抗正統的人
以及那些反抗正統的人
14:38
and those who resist orthodoxy.
354
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3115
14:41
But the most important reason
355
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1597
但是最重要的原因是
14:42
is that a system of mass surveillance
356
870752
2401
一個廣泛監視的制度
14:45
suppresses our own freedom in all sorts of ways.
357
873153
2617
會以各種方式壓制我們的自由
14:47
It renders off-limits
358
875770
1801
設定各種行為選擇的禁地
14:49
all kinds of behavioral choices
359
877571
2006
14:51
without our even knowing that it's happened.
360
879577
3553
而我們甚至全然沒有意識到
14:55
The renowned socialist activist Rosa Luxemburg
361
883130
2482
著名社會主義積極分子羅莎 盧森堡
14:57
once said, "He who does not move
362
885612
2493
曾經說過：“如果你不動，
你不會發現身上的鎖鏈。”
你不會發現身上的鎖鏈。”
15:00
does not notice his chains."
363
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3356
15:03
We can try and render the chains
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1689
我們可以試著粉飾這些廣泛的監視的鎖鏈為無形的或無法測出的
15:05
of mass surveillance invisible or undetectable,
365
893150
3089
15:08
but the constraints that it imposes on us
366
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2666
但它對我們施加的限制不會有任何減少
15:10
do not become any less potent.
367
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2545
15:13
Thank you very much.
368
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1608
非常感謝
15:15
(Applause)
369
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1431
（掌聲）
謝謝
15:16
Thank you.
370
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1507
（掌聲）
15:17
(Applause)
371
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4897
15:22
Thank you.
372
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2387
謝謝
15:25
(Applause)
373
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2842
（掌聲）
15:31
Bruno Giussani: Glenn, thank you.
374
919320
2292
布魯諾 朱薩尼：格倫，非常感謝
我必須說你的演講十分有說服力
我必須說你的演講十分有說服力
15:33
The case is rather convincing, I have to say,
375
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2289
15:35
but I want to bring you back
376
923901
1565
但是我想回到十六個月前
15:37
to the last 16 months and to Edward Snowden
377
925466
3351
關於愛德華 斯諾登，如果你不介意的話
我有幾個問題
我有幾個問題
15:40
for a few questions, if you don't mind.
378
928817
2065
15:42
The first one is personal to you.
379
930882
2488
第一個問題對你來說比較私人性的
我們都看到了你的同伴大衛米蘭達
在倫敦被捕的消息，
在倫敦被捕的消息，
15:45
We have all read about the arrest of your partner,
380
933370
3041
15:48
David Miranda in London, and other difficulties,
381
936411
3310
以及他受到的磨難
但是我認為
但是我認為
15:51
but I assume that
382
939721
2084
15:53
in terms of personal engagement and risk,
383
941805
3356
就個人參與和風險來說
你身上的壓力也不輕
你身上的壓力也不輕
15:57
that the pressure on you is not that easy
384
945161
1804
15:58
to take on the biggest sovereign
organizations in the world.
organizations in the world.
385
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2945
承擔著世界上最大的獨立主權組織
16:01
Tell us a little bit about that.
386
949910
2435
給我們介紹一下吧
格林沃德：我認為人們對於這件事的
勇氣是會傳染的
勇氣是會傳染的
16:04
Glenn Greenwald: You know, I think
one of the things that happens
one of the things that happens
387
952345
1655
16:06
is that people's courage in this regard
388
954000
1932
16:07
gets contagious,
389
955932
1712
所以即使我以及其他和我一起
工作的記者們
工作的記者們
16:09
and so although I and the other
journalists with whom I was working
journalists with whom I was working
390
957644
3463
當然知道事情的危險性
16:13
were certainly aware of the risk —
391
961107
1536
美國仍然是世界上最強大的國家
16:14
the United States continues to be
the most powerful country in the world
the most powerful country in the world
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962643
2722
而且它不希望
16:17
and doesn't appreciate it when you
393
965365
1998
你在網上任意泄露他大量的機密
16:19
disclose thousands of their secrets
394
967363
1922
16:21
on the Internet at will —
395
969285
2511
看著一個29歲的
16:23
seeing somebody who is a 29-year-old
396
971796
3469
生長於普通家庭環境的普通人
16:27
ordinary person who grew up in
397
975265
2019
16:29
a very ordinary environment
398
977284
2313
16:31
exercise the degree of principled
courage that Edward Snowden risked,
courage that Edward Snowden risked,
399
979597
3723
用高度有原則的勇氣承擔著
像愛德華 斯諾登所承擔的這樣的風險
像愛德華 斯諾登所承擔的這樣的風險
16:35
knowing that he was going to go
to prison for the rest of his life
to prison for the rest of his life
400
983320
2220
明知道他的後半生會在監獄中度過
16:37
or that his life would unravel,
401
985540
1782
或者他的生活會就此結束
16:39
inspired me and inspired other journalists
402
987322
1975
激勵著我，激勵著其他的記者
16:41
and inspired, I think, people around the world,
403
989297
1823
激勵著，我想，全世界的人
16:43
including future whistleblowers,
404
991120
1688
包括將來的告密者
16:44
to realize that they can engage
in that kind of behavior as well.
in that kind of behavior as well.
405
992808
3515
讓他們意識到他們一樣可與參與進來
16:48
BG: I'm curious about your
relationship with Ed Snowden,
relationship with Ed Snowden,
406
996323
2486
朱薩尼：我很好奇你和愛德 斯諾登的
關係
關係
16:50
because you have spoken with him a lot,
407
998809
3181
因為你多次與他談話
而且你肯定會繼續與他談話
16:53
and you certainly continue doing so,
408
1001990
1763
但是在你的書裡，你不會叫他“愛德華”
16:55
but in your book, you never call him Edward,
409
1003753
2636
16:58
nor Ed, you say "Snowden." How come?
410
1006389
3460
或者愛德，你叫他“斯諾登”，為什麼？
17:01
GG: You know, I'm sure that's something
411
1009849
1644
格林沃德：你知道嗎，我想這是
心理學家們要研究的事情（笑聲）
心理學家們要研究的事情（笑聲）
17:03
for a team of psychologists to examine.
(Laughter)
(Laughter)
412
1011493
3331
我不是很確定。我覺得原因是
17:06
I don't really know. The reason I think that,
413
1014824
3589
17:10
one of the important objectives that he actually had,
414
1018413
3554
他的一個很重要的目的
我想，其中最重要的一個策略是
17:13
one of his, I think, most important tactics,
415
1021967
2336
17:16
was that he knew that one of the ways
416
1024303
2207
他知道如果（有人）要轉移對他
所揭露的重點的注意力
所揭露的重點的注意力
17:18
to distract attention from the
substance of the revelations
substance of the revelations
417
1026510
2690
17:21
would be to try and personalize the focus on him,
418
1029200
2650
就會試著將注意力集中在他個人身上
因此他一直遠離媒體
17:23
and for that reason, he stayed out of the media.
419
1031850
2067
他努力不讓任何他的個人生活受到查問
17:25
He tried not to ever have his personal life
420
1033917
2509
17:28
subject to examination,
421
1036426
1679
所以我覺得叫他斯諾登
17:30
and so I think calling him Snowden
422
1038105
2714
17:32
is a way of just identifying him
as this important historical actor
as this important historical actor
423
1040819
3574
是一種視他為一個重要的歷史人物
17:36
rather than trying to personalize him in a way
424
1044393
1872
而不是將他個人化
17:38
that might distract attention from the substance.
425
1046265
2880
從而導致分散對此事件本身的注意力
17:41
Moderator: So his revelations, your analysis,
426
1049145
1457
朱薩尼：所以他所揭露的，你的分析，
以及其他記者的文章
以及其他記者的文章
17:42
the work of other journalists,
427
1050602
1776
17:44
have really developed the debate,
428
1052378
3000
已經發展出一個辯論
17:47
and many governments, for example, have reacted,
429
1055378
2128
而且很多政府，比如，已經做出回應
17:49
including in Brazil, with projects and programs
430
1057506
2604
包括巴西，提出項目和方案
17:52
to reshape a little bit the design of the Internet, etc.
431
1060110
2854
對互聯網的設計做出一點修改，等等
17:54
There are a lot of things going on in that sense.
432
1062964
2752
這樣說來很多事情都在進行中
17:57
But I'm wondering, for you personally,
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1065716
2270
我很好奇，對你個人來說
17:59
what is the endgame?
434
1067986
1651
什麼才是最後的終結？
18:01
At what point will you think,
435
1069637
1633
怎麼樣你才會說
18:03
well, actually, we've succeeded
in moving the dial?
in moving the dial?
436
1071270
3192
我們已成功地啟動了轉盤
18:06
GG: Well, I mean, the endgame for me as a journalist
437
1074462
2278
格林沃德：我想終結對於我，
一個記者來說，很簡單
一個記者來說，很簡單
18:08
is very simple, which is to make sure
438
1076740
2443
就是確保每條新聞有報道價值的
18:11
that every single document that's newsworthy
439
1079183
2012
18:13
and that ought to be disclosed
440
1081195
1646
應該公開的得到公開
18:14
ends up being disclosed,
441
1082841
1480
18:16
and that secrets that should never
have been kept in the first place
have been kept in the first place
442
1084321
2037
不應該成為秘密的秘密最終被揭開
18:18
end up uncovered.
443
1086358
1475
18:19
To me, that's the essence of journalism
444
1087833
1847
對我來說這就是記者的本質
18:21
and that's what I'm committed to doing.
445
1089680
1527
也是我承諾要做的事情
18:23
As somebody who finds mass surveillance odious
446
1091207
2474
一些人很厭惡政府的監視
18:25
for all the reasons I just talked about and a lot more,
447
1093681
2187
如同我剛才講到的那些原因，甚至更多
18:27
I mean, I look at this as work that will never end
448
1095868
2526
我把這看做一份沒有終結的工作
18:30
until governments around the world
449
1098394
2177
直到全世界的政府不能再
18:32
are no longer able to subject entire populations
450
1100571
2619
監視和控制所有的人民
18:35
to monitoring and surveillance
451
1103190
1486
除非他們可以說服法院或其他機構
18:36
unless they convince some court or some entity
452
1104676
2589
18:39
that the person they've targeted
453
1107265
1722
他們監視的對象真的做了錯事
18:40
has actually done something wrong.
454
1108987
2591
18:43
To me, that's the way that
privacy can be rejuvenated.
privacy can be rejuvenated.
455
1111578
3235
對我來說，這樣，隱私才能被還原
18:46
BG: So Snowden is very,
as we've seen at TED,
as we've seen at TED,
456
1114813
2346
朱薩尼：所以斯諾登，在我們TED的講台上看來，
18:49
is very articulate in presenting and portraying himself
457
1117159
2768
非常明確地表達自己是
18:51
as a defender of democratic values
458
1119927
2280
民主觀念和民主原則的捍衛者
18:54
and democratic principles.
459
1122207
1713
18:55
But then, many people really
find it difficult to believe
find it difficult to believe
460
1123920
3028
但是，很多人不相信這些是
他唯一的動機
他唯一的動機
18:58
that those are his only motivations.
461
1126948
2402
19:01
They find it difficult to believe
462
1129350
1478
他們不相信這之中沒有錢的摻入
19:02
that there was no money involved,
463
1130828
1621
19:04
that he didn't sell some of those secrets,
464
1132449
1911
他們不相信他沒有把那些機密
賣給其他國家
賣給其他國家
19:06
even to China and to Russia,
465
1134360
1829
甚至包括中國和俄羅斯
19:08
which are clearly not the best friends
466
1136189
2544
這兩個顯然不是和美國的很友好的國家
19:10
of the United States right now.
467
1138733
2169
19:12
And I'm sure many people in the room
468
1140902
1706
而且我相信在坐的很多人
都有同樣的疑問
都有同樣的疑問
19:14
are wondering the same question.
469
1142608
2270
19:16
Do you consider it possible there is
470
1144878
1883
你認不認為也許斯諾登的某一面
我們誰都沒有見過
我們誰都沒有見過
19:18
that part of Snowden we've not seen yet?
471
1146761
2612
19:21
GG: No, I consider that absurd and idiotic.
472
1149373
3181
格林沃德：不，我認為這太愚蠢而且荒唐
19:24
(Laughter) If you wanted to,
473
1152554
2414
（笑聲）如果你想
19:26
and I know you're just playing devil's advocate,
474
1154968
2462
我知道你只是在故意唱反調
19:29
but if you wanted to sell
475
1157430
3211
但如果你真的想
19:32
secrets to another country,
476
1160641
1906
把機密賣給別的國家
19:34
which he could have done and become
477
1162547
1717
而且如果他真的賣了
他會變得非常有錢
他會變得非常有錢
19:36
extremely rich doing so,
478
1164264
1646
那他不會想要把那些機密
19:37
the last thing you would
do is take those secrets
do is take those secrets
479
1165910
1981
19:39
and give them to journalists and
ask journalists to publish them,
ask journalists to publish them,
480
1167891
2744
拿給記者來發表
19:42
because it makes those secrets worthless.
481
1170635
2026
因為這樣做會讓那些機密變得不值錢
19:44
People who want to enrich themselves
482
1172661
1648
想發財的人
19:46
do it secretly by selling
secrets to the government,
secrets to the government,
483
1174309
1970
會悄悄地把機密賣給政府
19:48
but I think there's one important point worth making,
484
1176279
1821
但是有一點值得提的是
19:50
which is, that accusation comes from
485
1178100
2238
那些指責來自美國政府
19:52
people in the U.S. government,
486
1180338
1832
來自媒體裡擁護各個政府的人
19:54
from people in the media who are loyalists
487
1182170
2020
19:56
to these various governments,
488
1184190
1598
而且我認為很多時候人們指責別人：
19:57
and I think a lot of times when people make accusations like that about other people —
489
1185788
3148
他這樣做肯定不是
20:00
"Oh, he can't really be doing this
490
1188936
1605
出於正當原因
20:02
for principled reasons,
491
1190541
1665
他肯定有什麼腐敗或者不法的意圖
20:04
he must have some corrupt, nefarious reason" —
492
1192206
2242
20:06
they're saying a lot more about themselves
493
1194448
2107
他們其實更多的是在說他們自己
20:08
than they are the target of their accusations,
494
1196555
1826
而不是他們指責的對象
20:10
because — (Applause) —
495
1198381
4385
因為（掌聲）
20:14
those people, the ones who make that accusation,
496
1202766
2520
那些做出這些指責的人
20:17
they themselves never act
497
1205286
1904
他們自己只會出於腐敗的原因
做一些事情
做一些事情
20:19
for any reason other than corrupt reasons,
498
1207190
1922
20:21
so they assume
499
1209112
1632
所以他們才會假設
所有人和他們一樣
都身患沒有靈魂的疾病
都身患沒有靈魂的疾病
20:22
that everybody else is plagued by the same disease
500
1210744
2632
20:25
of soullessness as they are,
501
1213376
2002
這就是他們的設想
20:27
and so that's the assumption.
502
1215378
1871
（掌聲）
20:29
(Applause)
503
1217249
1627
20:30
BG: Glenn, thank you very much.
GG: Thank you very much.
GG: Thank you very much.
504
1218876
2484
格林沃德：非常感謝
朱薩尼：謝謝
朱薩尼：謝謝
朱薩尼：格倫 格林沃德
20:33
BG: Glenn Greenwald.
505
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2332
（掌聲）
20:35
(Applause)
506
1223692
1114
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Glenn Greenwald - JournalistGlenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files.
Why you should listen
As one of the first journalists privy to NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden’s archives, Glenn Greenwald has a unique window into the inner workings of the NSA and Britain's GCHQ. A vocal advocate for civil liberties in the face of growing post-9/11 authoritarianism, Greenwald was a natural outlet for Snowden, who’d admired his combative writing style in Salon and elsewhere.
Since his original Guardian exposés of Snowden’s revelations, Pulitzer winner Greenwald continues to stoke public debate on surveillance and privacy both in the media, on The Intercept, and with his new book No Place to Hide -- and suggests that the there are more shocking revelations to come.
Glenn Greenwald | Speaker | TED.com