TEDGlobal 2014
Glenn Greenwald: Why privacy matters
Glenn Greenwald: Zakaj potrebujemo zasebnost
Filmed:
Readability: 5.1
2,346,660 views
Glenn Greenwald je bil eden prvih poročevalcev, ki so videli dokumente Edwarda Snowdena ter pisali o njihovih razkritjih množičnega nadzora zasebnih državljanov v Združenih državah. Greenwald v tem neprizanesljivem govoru izpostavi, zakaj moramo skrbeti za svojo zasebnost, tudi če "ne počnemo ničesar, kar bi morali skrivati."
Glenn Greenwald - Journalist
Glenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files. Full bio
Glenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
There is an entire genre of YouTube videos
0
855
2943
Na YouTubu obstaja cel žanr videov,
00:15
devoted to an experience which
1
3798
2013
posvečenih izkušnji,
00:17
I am certain that everyone in this room has had.
2
5811
2577
ki jo je brez dvoma imel vsak v tej sobi.
00:20
It entails an individual who,
3
8388
2013
V takšnem videu posameznik,
00:22
thinking they're alone,
4
10401
1563
v prepričanju, da je sam,
00:23
engages in some expressive behavior —
5
11964
3206
počne nekaj ekspresivnega —
00:27
wild singing, gyrating dancing,
6
15170
2507
poje na ves glas, zapeljivo pleše,
00:29
some mild sexual activity —
7
17677
2603
počne kaj igrivo seksualnega —
00:32
only to discover that, in fact, they are not alone,
8
20280
2598
nakar ugotovi, da v bistvu ni sam,
00:34
that there is a person watching and lurking,
9
22878
3045
da ga nekdo skrivaj opazuje.
00:37
the discovery of which causes them
10
25923
1755
Ob tem odkritju
00:39
to immediately cease what they were doing
11
27678
1900
povsem zgrožen takoj preneha
s svojim početjem.
00:41
in horror.
12
29578
1890
00:43
The sense of shame and humiliation
13
31468
2082
Na njegovem obrazu se jasno vidi
00:45
in their face is palpable.
14
33550
2283
občutek sramu in ponižanja.
00:47
It's the sense of,
15
35833
1732
Občutek, da bi to stvar
00:49
"This is something I'm willing to do
16
37565
1733
počel samo pod pogojem,
00:51
only if no one else is watching."
17
39298
3600
da ga nihče ne gleda.
00:54
This is the crux of the work
18
42898
2418
To je glavna tema dela,
00:57
on which I have been singularly focused
19
45316
2047
s katerim se intenzivno ukvarjam
00:59
for the last 16 months,
20
47363
1875
zadnjih 16 mesecev —
01:01
the question of why privacy matters,
21
49238
2062
vprašanje o pomenu zasebnosti,
01:03
a question that has arisen
22
51300
1938
ki zdaj nastopa tudi
01:05
in the context of a global debate,
23
53238
3122
v kontekstu svetovnih razprav,
zahvaljujoč razkritjem Edwarda Snowdena,
01:08
enabled by the revelations of Edward Snowden
24
56360
2488
01:10
that the United States and its partners,
25
58848
2341
da so ZDA in njeni partnerji
01:13
unbeknownst to the entire world,
26
61189
2022
brez vednosti ostalega sveta
01:15
has converted the Internet,
27
63211
2092
spremenili internet
iz orodja brez primere,
iz orodja brez primere,
01:17
once heralded as an unprecedented tool
28
65303
2801
ki je nekoč obetalo
01:20
of liberation and democratization,
29
68104
3316
osvoboditev in demokratizacijo,
01:23
into an unprecedented zone
30
71420
1769
v cono masovnega,
01:25
of mass, indiscriminate surveillance.
31
73189
4094
nekritičnega nadzora, kot ga še ni bilo.
01:29
There is a very common sentiment
32
77283
1957
V tej razpravi pogosto
nastopa mnenje tudi med ljudmi,
01:31
that arises in this debate,
33
79240
1486
01:32
even among people who are uncomfortable
34
80726
1957
ki niso naklonjeni
01:34
with mass surveillance, which says
35
82683
2054
množičnemu nadzoru,
01:36
that there is no real harm
36
84737
1923
da takšen obsežen vdor
01:38
that comes from this large-scale invasion
37
86660
2745
ne povzroča resnične škode,
01:41
because only people who are engaged in bad acts
38
89405
3274
saj imajo razlog za skrivanje
01:44
have a reason to want to hide
39
92679
2069
in željo po zasebnosti le ljudje,
01:46
and to care about their privacy.
40
94748
2711
ki počnejo kaj slabega.
01:49
This worldview is implicitly grounded
41
97459
2781
Tak pogled izhaja
iz posredne predpostavke,
iz posredne predpostavke,
01:52
in the proposition that there are
two kinds of people in the world,
two kinds of people in the world,
42
100240
2176
da na svetu obstajata dva tipa ljudi,
01:54
good people and bad people.
43
102416
2036
dobri in slabi.
01:56
Bad people are those who plot terrorist attacks
44
104452
2968
Slabi ljudje načrtujejo
teroristične napade
teroristične napade
01:59
or who engage in violent criminality
45
107420
1498
ali so nasilni kriminalci
02:00
and therefore have reasons to
want to hide what they're doing,
want to hide what they're doing,
46
108918
3152
in imajo razloge za skrivanje
02:04
have reasons to care about their privacy.
47
112070
2057
in željo po zasebnosti.
02:06
But by contrast, good people
48
114127
2823
Po drugi strani dobri ljudje
hodijo v službo, se vrnejo domov,
02:08
are people who go to work,
49
116950
1653
02:10
come home, raise their children, watch television.
50
118603
2902
vzgajajo otroke, gledajo TV.
02:13
They use the Internet not to plot bombing attacks
51
121505
2756
Interneta ne potrebujejo
za načrtovanje napadov,
za načrtovanje napadov,
02:16
but to read the news or exchange recipes
52
124261
2475
ampak za branje novic, izmenjavo receptov
02:18
or to plan their kids' Little League games,
53
126736
2474
ali organiziranje tekem za otroško ligo.
02:21
and those people are doing nothing wrong
54
129210
2318
Ti ljudje ne počnejo ničesar narobe
02:23
and therefore have nothing to hide
55
131528
2047
in zato ničesar ne skrivajo
02:25
and no reason to fear
56
133575
2362
in nimajo nobenega razloga za strah
02:27
the government monitoring them.
57
135937
2442
pred nadzorom s strani vlade.
02:30
The people who are actually saying that
58
138379
1810
Ljudje, ki to dejansko govorijo,
02:32
are engaged in a very extreme act
59
140189
2779
so udeleženci skrajnega dejanja
02:34
of self-deprecation.
60
142968
1556
samorazvrednotenja.
02:36
What they're really saying is,
61
144524
1909
Kar resnično pravijo, je:
02:38
"I have agreed to make myself
62
146433
2193
"Pristal sem na to, da postanem
02:40
such a harmless and unthreatening
63
148626
2846
tako neškodljiva in dolgočasna oseba,
02:43
and uninteresting person that I actually don't fear
64
151472
2958
da me resnično ni strah,
02:46
having the government know what it is that I'm doing."
65
154430
3349
če vlada ve, kaj delam."
02:49
This mindset has found what I think
66
157779
1804
Mislim, da je ta miselnost
02:51
is its purest expression
67
159583
2069
najbolj prišla do izraza
02:53
in a 2009 interview with
68
161652
2307
v intervjuju z direktorjem Googla
02:55
the longtime CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, who,
69
163959
2935
Ericom Schmidtom iz leta 2009.
02:58
when asked about all the different ways his company
70
166894
2542
Na vprašanje o številnih načinih
03:01
is causing invasions of privacy
71
169436
2172
Googlovega vdiranja v zasebnost
03:03
for hundreds of millions of people around the world,
72
171608
2609
več sto milijonom ljudi po svetu
03:06
said this: He said,
73
174217
1991
je odgovoril,
03:08
"If you're doing something that you don't want
74
176208
1676
"Če delaš nekaj, za kar nočeš,
03:09
other people to know,
75
177884
2014
da izvejo tudi drugi,
03:11
maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."
76
179898
4005
mogoče tega sploh ne bi smel delati."
03:15
Now, there's all kinds of things to say about
77
183903
1985
O takšni mentaliteti
03:17
that mentality,
78
185888
2345
lahko rečemo veliko stvari.
03:20
the first of which is that the people who say that,
79
188233
3240
Za začetek — ljudje, ki menijo,
03:23
who say that privacy isn't really important,
80
191473
2115
da zasebnost ni zares pomembna,
03:25
they don't actually believe it,
81
193588
2947
dejansko ne verjamejo v to.
03:28
and the way you know that
they don't actually believe it
they don't actually believe it
82
196535
1822
To kažejo tako,
03:30
is that while they say with their
words that privacy doesn't matter,
words that privacy doesn't matter,
83
198357
2869
da kljub svojim besedam
03:33
with their actions, they take all kinds of steps
84
201226
3161
z dejanji na vrsto načinov
03:36
to safeguard their privacy.
85
204387
2767
varujejo svojo zasebnost.
03:39
They put passwords on their email
86
207154
1818
Na e-mail računih
in socialnih omrežjih imajo gesla,
03:40
and their social media accounts,
87
208972
1770
03:42
they put locks on their bedroom
88
210742
1879
na vratih spalnice in kopalnice
03:44
and bathroom doors,
89
212621
1349
imajo ključavnice.
03:45
all steps designed to prevent other people
90
213970
2700
Namen vseh teh korakov je,
da drugim ljudem
da drugim ljudem
03:48
from entering what they consider their private realm
91
216670
2902
preprečijo vstop v njihovo
zasebno področje
zasebno področje
03:51
and knowing what it is that they
don't want other people to know.
don't want other people to know.
92
219572
3701
in razkritje stvari, za katere
nočejo, da vedo drugi.
nočejo, da vedo drugi.
03:55
The very same Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google,
93
223273
3060
Isti Eric Schmidt, direktor Googla,
03:58
ordered his employees at Google
94
226333
2609
je ukazal uslužbencem,
04:00
to cease speaking with the online
95
228942
1935
naj nehajo komunicirati
04:02
Internet magazine CNET
96
230877
2273
z internetno revijo CNET,
04:05
after CNET published an article
97
233150
2590
po tem, ko so objavili članek,
04:07
full of personal, private information
98
235740
2033
poln zasebnih informacij
04:09
about Eric Schmidt,
99
237773
2081
o Ericu Schmidtu,
04:11
which it obtained exclusively
through Google searches
through Google searches
100
239854
3116
pridobljenih izključno
z iskanjem po Googlu
z iskanjem po Googlu
04:14
and using other Google products. (Laughter)
101
242970
3341
in uporabo ostalih Googlovih produktov.
04:18
This same division can be seen
102
246311
1857
Isto delitev vidimo
pri ustanovitelju Facebooka
pri ustanovitelju Facebooka
04:20
with the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg,
103
248168
2462
Marku Zuckerbergu,
04:22
who in an infamous interview in 2010
104
250630
3530
ki je v razvpitem intervjuju iz leta 2010
04:26
pronounced that privacy is no longer
105
254160
2399
razglasil, da zasebnost ni več
04:28
a "social norm."
106
256559
3025
"družbena norma".
04:31
Last year, Mark Zuckerberg and his new wife
107
259584
2556
Prejšnje leto je Zuckerberg z ženo
04:34
purchased not only their own house
108
262140
2305
kupil ne le svojo lastno hišo,
04:36
but also all four adjacent houses in Palo Alto
109
264445
3875
ampak tudi vse štiri
sosednje v Palu Altu
sosednje v Palu Altu
04:40
for a total of 30 million dollars
110
268320
1614
za 30 milijonov dolarjev,
04:41
in order to ensure that they enjoyed a zone of privacy
111
269934
3532
da bi jima zagotovil zasebno cono,
04:45
that prevented other people from monitoring
112
273466
2126
kjer nihče ne more opazovati,
04:47
what they do in their personal lives.
113
275592
3599
kaj delata v privatnem življenju.
04:51
Over the last 16 months, as I've
debated this issue around the world,
debated this issue around the world,
114
279191
2753
V zadnjih 16 mesecih,
ko sem o tem problemu
ko sem o tem problemu
04:53
every single time somebody has said to me,
115
281944
2416
govoril po svetu,
mi je vsakič nekdo rekel,
mi je vsakič nekdo rekel,
04:56
"I don't really worry about invasions of privacy
116
284360
1509
"Ne skrbi me vdor v zasebnost,
04:57
because I don't have anything to hide."
117
285869
1609
ker ničesar ne skrivam."
04:59
I always say the same thing to them.
118
287478
1700
Moj odgovor je zmeraj enak.
05:01
I get out a pen, I write down my email address.
119
289178
2293
Vzamem kuli, napišem svoj e-mail in rečem,
05:03
I say, "Here's my email address.
120
291471
1642
"Tu je moj e-mail naslov.
05:05
What I want you to do when you get home
121
293113
1699
Ko prideš domov,
05:06
is email me the passwords
122
294812
1710
mi pošlji vsa svoja gesla
05:08
to all of your email accounts,
123
296522
1810
za vse svoje e-mail račune,
05:10
not just the nice, respectable work one in your name,
124
298332
2554
ne le za ugledne službene,
05:12
but all of them,
125
300886
1550
ampak vse, ker bi rad preletel,
05:14
because I want to be able to just troll through
126
302436
2061
kaj delaš na spletu,
05:16
what it is you're doing online,
127
304497
1679
in prebral in objavil,
05:18
read what I want to read and
publish whatever I find interesting.
publish whatever I find interesting.
128
306176
2562
kar se mi zdi zanimivo.
05:20
After all, if you're not a bad person,
129
308738
1800
Navsezadnje, če nisi slab človek
05:22
if you're doing nothing wrong,
130
310538
1822
in ne počneš ničesar narobe,
05:24
you should have nothing to hide."
131
312360
2980
ne bi smel imeti ničesar za skrivati."
05:27
Not a single person has taken me up on that offer.
132
315340
3533
Niti ena oseba še ni pristala na pobudo.
05:30
I check and — (Applause)
133
318873
4005
Ta e-mail račun -- (aplavz)
05:34
I check that email account religiously all the time.
134
322878
3240
preverjam ves čas kot zmešan,
05:38
It's a very desolate place.
135
326118
3205
ampak je zelo osamljen prostor.
05:41
And there's a reason for that,
136
329323
1787
Za to obstaja razlog,
05:43
which is that we as human beings,
137
331110
2041
in sicer, da tudi ko ljudje
05:45
even those of us who in words
138
333151
1954
z besedami zanikamo
05:47
disclaim the importance of our own privacy,
139
335105
2441
pomen naše zasebnosti,
05:49
instinctively understand
140
337546
2137
instinktivno razumemo,
05:51
the profound importance of it.
141
339683
2194
kakšen globok pomen ima.
05:53
It is true that as human beings, we're social animals,
142
341877
2827
Res je, da smo ljudje družbena bitja
05:56
which means we have a need for other people
143
344704
2149
in imamo potrebo, da drugim ljudem
05:58
to know what we're doing and saying and thinking,
144
346853
2744
pokažemo, kaj delamo, govorimo in mislimo,
06:01
which is why we voluntarily publish
information about ourselves online.
information about ourselves online.
145
349597
4270
zato tudi prostovoljno objavljamo
svoje informacije na spletu.
svoje informacije na spletu.
06:05
But equally essential to what it means
146
353867
2846
Za svobodno in zadovoljno osebo
06:08
to be a free and fulfilled human being
147
356713
2581
pa je enako pomembno tudi,
06:11
is to have a place that we can go
148
359294
2137
da ima prostor, kamor se lahko umakne
06:13
and be free of the judgmental eyes of other people.
149
361431
4028
pred očitajočimi očmi drugih.
06:17
There's a reason why we seek that out,
150
365459
2007
Obstaja razlog, zakaj stremimo k temu,
06:19
and our reason is that all of us —
151
367466
2910
in sicer, da imamo vsi —
06:22
not just terrorists and criminals, all of us —
152
370376
3328
ne le teroristi in kriminalci, ampak vsi —
06:25
have things to hide.
153
373704
2045
stvari, ki jih hočemo skriti.
06:27
There are all sorts of things that we do and think
154
375749
2747
Vrsto stvari, ki jih delamo
in o katerih razmišljamo,
in o katerih razmišljamo,
06:30
that we're willing to tell our physician
155
378496
2701
smo pripravljeni povedati zdravniku,
06:33
or our lawyer or our psychologist or our spouse
156
381197
3755
odvetniku, psihologu, partnerju,
06:36
or our best friend that we would be mortified
157
384952
2338
najboljšemu prijatelju, vendar bi nas bilo
grozno sram,
če bi zanje vedeli tudi drugi.
če bi zanje vedeli tudi drugi.
06:39
for the rest of the world to learn.
158
387290
1960
06:41
We make judgments every single day
159
389250
2202
Vsak dan opravljamo sodbe o stvareh
06:43
about the kinds of things that we say and think and do
160
391452
2458
ki smo jih pripravljeni deliti
06:45
that we're willing to have other people know,
161
393910
1721
z drugimi ljudmi,
06:47
and the kinds of things that we say and think and do
162
395631
1990
in o stvareh, za katere nočemo,
06:49
that we don't want anyone else to know about.
163
397621
2329
da ve kdorkoli.
06:51
People can very easily in words claim
164
399950
3327
Ljudje lahko brez težav trdijo,
06:55
that they don't value their privacy,
165
403277
2162
da ne cenijo svoje zasebnosti,
06:57
but their actions negate the authenticity of that belief.
166
405439
4977
vendar njihova dejanja
zanikajo to prepričanje.
zanikajo to prepričanje.
07:02
Now, there's a reason why privacy is so craved
167
410416
3730
Obstaja razlog, zakaj
po zasebnosti hrepenimo
po zasebnosti hrepenimo
07:06
universally and instinctively.
168
414146
1744
vsesplošno in instinktivno.
07:07
It isn't just a reflexive movement
169
415890
1887
Ne gre le za refleks,
07:09
like breathing air or drinking water.
170
417777
2714
kot je dihanje ali pitje vode.
07:12
The reason is that when we're in a state
171
420491
2440
Razlog je v tem, da se v stanju,
07:14
where we can be monitored,
where we can be watched,
where we can be watched,
172
422931
2657
kjer smo lahko opazovani in nadzorovani,
07:17
our behavior changes dramatically.
173
425588
2676
naše obnašanje drastično spremeni.
07:20
The range of behavioral options that we consider
174
428264
3033
Ko se nam zdi, da smo opazovani,
je naše vedenje veliko bolj
07:23
when we think we're being watched
175
431297
1808
omejeno kot sicer.
07:25
severely reduce.
176
433105
2155
07:27
This is just a fact of human nature
177
435260
2215
To je preprosto dejstvo človeške narave,
07:29
that has been recognized in social science
178
437475
2288
priznano v družboslovju,
07:31
and in literature and in religion
179
439763
1907
literaturi, religiji
07:33
and in virtually every field of discipline.
180
441670
2228
in praktično na vseh področjih.
07:35
There are dozens of psychological studies
181
443898
2782
Na ducate psiholoških študij
07:38
that prove that when somebody knows
182
446680
2551
lahko potrdi, da je obnašanje
07:41
that they might be watched,
183
449231
1569
nekoga, ki se zaveda,
07:42
the behavior they engage in
184
450800
1692
da je lahko opazovan,
07:44
is vastly more conformist and compliant.
185
452492
3482
veliko bolj konformistično kot sicer.
07:47
Human shame is a very powerful motivator,
186
455974
3345
Občutek sramu je močan motivator,
07:51
as is the desire to avoid it,
187
459319
2911
tako kot želja, da se mu izognemo,
07:54
and that's the reason why people,
188
462230
1499
kar je razlog, da ljudje
07:55
when they're in a state of
being watched, make decisions
being watched, make decisions
189
463729
2239
medtem ko so opazovani,
sprejemajo odločitve,
sprejemajo odločitve,
07:57
not that are the byproduct of their own agency
190
465968
3262
ki niso stranski produkt lastnih dejanj,
08:01
but that are about the expectations
191
469230
2012
ampak so povezane
08:03
that others have of them
192
471242
1452
s pričakovanji drugih
08:04
or the mandates of societal orthodoxy.
193
472694
4434
ali s tem, kar jim
narekajo družbene norme.
narekajo družbene norme.
08:09
This realization was exploited most powerfully
194
477128
2867
To odkritje je v praksi najbolje uporabil
08:11
for pragmatic ends by the 18th-
century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,
century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,
195
479995
4141
filozof iz 18. stoletja Jeremy Bentham,
08:16
who set out to resolve an important problem
196
484136
2351
ki se je odločil rešiti pomemben problem,
08:18
ushered in by the industrial age,
197
486487
1802
ki je spremljal industrijsko dobo.
08:20
where, for the first time, institutions had become
198
488289
2358
Takrat so institucije prvič postale
08:22
so large and centralized
199
490647
1997
tako velike in centralizirane,
08:24
that they were no longer able to monitor
200
492644
1828
da niso bile več zmožne nadzorovati
08:26
and therefore control each one
of their individual members,
of their individual members,
201
494472
2953
in s tem kontrolirati vsakega posameznika.
Rešitev, ki jo je zasnoval,
08:29
and the solution that he devised
202
497425
1881
08:31
was an architectural design
203
499306
2203
je bila konstrukcija
08:33
originally intended to be implemented in prisons
204
501509
2716
po imenu panoptikum,
08:36
that he called the panopticon,
205
504225
2319
sprva mišljena za zapore.
08:38
the primary attribute of which was the construction
206
506544
2360
Njena glavna značilnost je bil
08:40
of an enormous tower in the center of the institution
207
508904
3071
ogromen stolp v sredini ustanove,
08:43
where whoever controlled the institution
208
511975
2148
iz katerega je lahko nadzornik
08:46
could at any moment watch any of the inmates,
209
514123
2685
v vsakem trenutku opazoval
katerega koli zapornika,
katerega koli zapornika,
08:48
although they couldn't watch all of them at all times.
210
516808
3322
čeprav ni mogel gledati vseh naenkrat.
08:52
And crucial to this design
211
520130
2055
Ključno pri tej konstrukciji je bilo,
08:54
was that the inmates could not actually
212
522185
1795
da zaporniki niso mogli videti,
08:55
see into the panopticon, into the tower,
213
523980
2876
kaj se dogaja v stolpu
08:58
and so they never knew
214
526856
1672
in tako niso nikoli vedeli,
09:00
if they were being watched or even when.
215
528528
2172
če jih kdo opazuje in kdaj.
09:02
And what made him so excited about this discovery
216
530700
3583
Pri odkritju ga je najbolj navdušilo,
09:06
was that that would mean that the prisoners
217
534283
1873
da bi za zapornike to pomenilo,
09:08
would have to assume that they were being watched
218
536156
3028
da morajo domnevati, da so
09:11
at any given moment,
219
539184
1685
opazovani v katerem koli trenutku,
09:12
which would be the ultimate enforcer
220
540869
1878
kar bi bil najboljši mehanizem
09:14
for obedience and compliance.
221
542747
3678
poslušnosti in ubogljivosti.
09:18
The 20th-century French philosopher Michel Foucault
222
546425
2925
Michel Foucault,
francoski filozof iz 20. stoletja,
francoski filozof iz 20. stoletja,
09:21
realized that that model could be used
223
549350
1925
je ugotovil, da se tak model lahko
09:23
not just for prisons but for every institution
224
551275
3115
uporablja ne le v zaporih,
ampak v vseh institucijah,
ampak v vseh institucijah,
09:26
that seeks to control human behavior:
225
554390
1950
kjer želijo nadzirati človeško vedenje:
09:28
schools, hospitals, factories, workplaces.
226
556340
2875
šolah, bolnicah, tovarnah,
delovnih mestih.
delovnih mestih.
09:31
And what he said was that this mindset,
227
559215
2198
Povedal je, da je takšen miselni okvir,
09:33
this framework discovered by Bentham,
228
561413
2426
kot ga je odkril Bentham,
09:35
was the key means of societal control
229
563839
3329
ključen za družbeni nadzor
09:39
for modern, Western societies,
230
567168
2002
v modernih družbah zahoda,
09:41
which no longer need
231
569170
1774
ki tako ne bi več potrebovale
09:42
the overt weapons of tyranny —
232
570944
1907
očitnih orožij tiranije —
09:44
punishing or imprisoning or killing dissidents,
233
572851
2396
kaznovanja, zapiranja
ali ubijanja disidentov
ali ubijanja disidentov
09:47
or legally compelling loyalty to a particular party —
234
575247
3314
ali zakonite prisile v zvestobo
določeni stranki —
določeni stranki —
09:50
because mass surveillance creates
235
578561
2399
ker množični nadzor ustvarja
09:52
a prison in the mind
236
580960
2555
miselni zapor,
09:55
that is a much more subtle
237
583515
1843
ki je veliko bolj subtilna,
09:57
though much more effective means
238
585358
1889
pa vendar učinkovitejša metoda
09:59
of fostering compliance with social norms
239
587247
3049
za spodbujanje spoštovanja družbenih norm
10:02
or with social orthodoxy,
240
590296
1462
in veliko učinkovitejše
10:03
much more effective
241
591758
1562
orožje ortodoksije
10:05
than brute force could ever be.
242
593320
3125
kot surova moč.
10:08
The most iconic work of literature about surveillance
243
596445
2818
Največja klasika s področja
nadzora in zasebnosti
nadzora in zasebnosti
10:11
and privacy is the George Orwell novel "1984,"
244
599263
3550
je Orwellov roman "1984",
10:14
which we all learn in school, and
therefore it's almost become a cliche.
therefore it's almost become a cliche.
245
602813
3467
o katerem smo se vsi učili
v šoli in je že skoraj kliše.
v šoli in je že skoraj kliše.
10:18
In fact, whenever you bring it up
in a debate about surveillance,
in a debate about surveillance,
246
606280
2069
Ljudje ga celo označijo
za slabo primerjavo
za slabo primerjavo
10:20
people instantaneously dismiss it
247
608349
2249
v pogovoru o nadzoru
10:22
as inapplicable, and what they say is,
248
610598
2302
in rečejo, da so tam ljudje
10:24
"Oh, well in '1984,' there were
monitors in people's homes,
monitors in people's homes,
249
612900
3283
imeli monitorje v stanovanjih
10:28
they were being watched at every given moment,
250
616183
2165
in so bili opazovani ves čas,
10:30
and that has nothing to do with
the surveillance state that we face."
the surveillance state that we face."
251
618348
3962
kar nima veze z današnjim nadzorom.
10:34
That is an actual fundamental misapprehension
252
622310
2920
To je dejansko glavno napačno razumevanje
10:37
of the warnings that Orwell issued in "1984."
253
625230
2701
svaril, ki jih je Orwell
objavil v svojem romanu.
objavil v svojem romanu.
10:39
The warning that he was issuing
254
627931
1651
Njegovo svarilo se je nanašalo
10:41
was about a surveillance state
255
629582
1608
na nadzorovalno državo,
10:43
not that monitored everybody at all times,
256
631190
2164
ki ni opazovala vsakogar ves čas,
10:45
but where people were aware that they could
257
633354
2053
ampak kjer so se ljudje zavedali,
10:47
be monitored at any given moment.
258
635407
1629
da so lahko opazovani kadarkoli.
10:49
Here is how Orwell's narrator, Winston Smith,
259
637036
3074
Orwellov pripovedovalec Winston Smith
10:52
described the surveillance system
260
640110
2040
je njihov sistem nadzora
10:54
that they faced:
261
642150
1398
opisal takole:
10:55
"There was, of course, no way of knowing
262
643548
2427
"Seveda ni bilo mogoče vedeti,
10:57
whether you were being watched
at any given moment."
at any given moment."
263
645975
2317
ali te v danem trenutku opazujejo."
11:00
He went on to say,
264
648292
1451
Nadaljeval je:
11:01
"At any rate, they could plug in your wire
265
649743
1711
"... priključili so se lahko na
11:03
whenever they wanted to.
266
651454
1709
tvoj oddajnik, kadarkoli so hoteli.
11:05
You had to live, did live,
267
653163
2579
Živeti si moral — in si živel,
11:07
from habit that became instinct,
268
655742
2253
iz navade, ki se je spremenila v nagon —
11:09
in the assumption that every sound you made
269
657995
2495
v domnevi, da prisluškujejo
11:12
was overheard and except in darkness
270
660490
2190
vsakemu šumu, ki ga narediš,
in opazujejo -
in opazujejo -
11:14
every movement scrutinized."
271
662680
2739
razen v temi - vsak tvoj gib."
11:17
The Abrahamic religions similarly posit
272
665419
3346
Abrahamske religije
imajo podobno predpostavko
11:20
that there's an invisible, all-knowing authority
273
668765
2943
o nevidni in vsevedni avtoriteti,
11:23
who, because of its omniscience,
274
671708
1743
ki zmeraj gleda, kaj počneš,
11:25
always watches whatever you're doing,
275
673451
1896
11:27
which means you never have a private moment,
276
675347
2773
kar pomeni, da nikoli nimaš
trenutka zasebnosti in si tako prisiljen
11:30
the ultimate enforcer
277
678120
1684
11:31
for obedience to its dictates.
278
679804
2990
v poslušnost ukazov.
11:34
What all of these seemingly disparate works
279
682794
3404
Vsa ta na videz različna dela
11:38
recognize, the conclusion that they all reach,
280
686198
2786
imajo skupno točko in zaključek,
11:40
is that a society in which people
281
688984
2322
da je družba, v kateri so ljudje
11:43
can be monitored at all times
282
691306
2307
lahko nadzorovani ves čas,
11:45
is a society that breeds conformity
283
693613
2655
družba konformizma,
11:48
and obedience and submission,
284
696268
2242
ubogljivosti in podrejanja,
11:50
which is why every tyrant,
285
698510
1511
zaradi česar o takšnem sistemu
11:52
the most overt to the most subtle,
286
700021
2082
sanja vsak tiran,
11:54
craves that system.
287
702103
2263
od očitnega do prikritega.
11:56
Conversely, even more importantly,
288
704366
2654
Po drugi strani je še bolj pomembno
11:59
it is a realm of privacy,
289
707020
2440
področje zasebnosti,
12:01
the ability to go somewhere where we can think
290
709460
3010
možnost, da gremo nekam,
kjer lahko razmišljamo
kjer lahko razmišljamo
12:04
and reason and interact and speak
291
712470
3158
razpravljamo in komuniciramo in govorimo,
12:07
without the judgmental eyes
of others being cast upon us,
of others being cast upon us,
292
715628
3654
umaknjeni pred očitajočimi očmi drugih.
12:11
in which creativity and exploration
293
719282
3543
Samo v tem področju bivajo ustvarjalnost,
12:14
and dissent exclusively reside,
294
722825
3028
raziskovanje in nestrinjanje.
12:17
and that is the reason why,
295
725853
1821
Zaradi tega z obstojem družbe,
12:19
when we allow a society to exist
296
727674
2576
v kateri smo podleženi
12:22
in which we're subject to constant monitoring,
297
730250
2163
neprestanemu nadzoru,
12:24
we allow the essence of human freedom
298
732413
2977
dopuščamo močno ohromitev
12:27
to be severely crippled.
299
735390
2951
bistva človeške svobode.
12:30
The last point I want to observe about this mindset,
300
738341
3122
Rad bi še pripomnil, da ideja,
12:33
the idea that only people who
are doing something wrong
are doing something wrong
301
741463
1925
da imajo razloge za skrivanje
12:35
have things to hide and therefore
reasons to care about privacy,
reasons to care about privacy,
302
743388
3882
in zasebnost le tisti,
ki počnejo nekaj narobe,
ki počnejo nekaj narobe,
12:39
is that it entrenches two very destructive messages,
303
747270
4006
utrjuje dve zelo škodljivi sporočili,
12:43
two destructive lessons,
304
751276
2028
dve škodljivi lekciji.
12:45
the first of which is that
305
753304
1756
Prva je ta, da so edini ljudje,
12:47
the only people who care about privacy,
306
755060
2120
ki jih skrbi za zasebnost
12:49
the only people who will seek out privacy,
307
757180
2056
in ki jo bodo poiskali,
12:51
are by definition bad people.
308
759236
4075
po definiciji slabi ljudje.
12:55
This is a conclusion that we should have
309
763311
2132
Temu zaključku bi se morali
12:57
all kinds of reasons for avoiding,
310
765443
2528
izogibati iz številnih razlogov.
12:59
the most important of which is that when you say,
311
767971
2752
Še posebej takrat, ko vi rečete
13:02
"somebody who is doing bad things,"
312
770723
2377
"nekdo, ki počne slabe reči,"
13:05
you probably mean things
like plotting a terrorist attack
like plotting a terrorist attack
313
773100
2837
verjetno mislite načrtovanje
terorističnih napadov,
terorističnih napadov,
13:07
or engaging in violent criminality,
314
775937
2041
nasilne kriminalce in podobno,
13:09
a much narrower conception
315
777978
2540
kar je veliko ožje pojmovanje,
13:12
of what people who wield power mean
316
780518
2452
kot ga imajo ljudje na vrhu.
13:14
when they say, "doing bad things."
317
782970
2050
Za njih "slabe stvari"
13:17
For them, "doing bad things" typically means
318
785020
2307
večinoma pomenijo stvari,
13:19
doing something that poses meaningful challenges
319
787327
3071
ki izvajanju njihove oblasti
13:22
to the exercise of our own power.
320
790398
3105
prinašajo pomenljive izzive.
13:25
The other really destructive
321
793503
1950
Druga resnično škodljiva
13:27
and, I think, even more insidious lesson
322
795453
1908
in po mojem še bolj prikrita lekcija,
13:29
that comes from accepting this mindset
323
797361
2779
ki izvira iz sprejemanja
takšnega mišljenja,
takšnega mišljenja,
13:32
is there's an implicit bargain
324
800140
2766
je implicitna kupčija,
13:34
that people who accept this mindset have accepted,
325
802906
3344
ki so jo ti ljudje sprejeli.
13:38
and that bargain is this:
326
806250
1455
Kupčija je takšna:
13:39
If you're willing to render yourself
327
807705
1972
Šele takrat, ko si pripravljen
13:41
sufficiently harmless,
328
809677
2102
postati dovolj neškodljiv
13:43
sufficiently unthreatening
329
811779
2170
in dovolj negrozeč
13:45
to those who wield political power,
330
813949
1882
ljudem na oblasti,
13:47
then and only then can you be free
331
815831
3036
si lahko popolnoma svoboden
13:50
of the dangers of surveillance.
332
818867
2108
pred nevarnostmi nadzora.
13:52
It's only those who are dissidents,
333
820975
2385
Edini, ki imajo vzrok za skrb,
13:55
who challenge power,
334
823360
1481
so disidenti,
13:56
who have something to worry about.
335
824841
1812
ki oporekajo oblasti.
13:58
There are all kinds of reasons why we
should want to avoid that lesson as well.
should want to avoid that lesson as well.
336
826653
3407
Tudi temu bi se morali
izogibati iz več razlogov.
izogibati iz več razlogov.
14:02
You may be a person who, right now,
337
830060
2238
Tudi če trenutno nisi oseba,
ki se želi uvarjati s takšnim početjem,
14:04
doesn't want to engage in that behavior,
338
832298
2072
14:06
but at some point in the future you might.
339
834370
2455
se boš mogoče hotel nekoč v prihodnosti.
14:08
Even if you're somebody who decides
340
836825
1674
Tudi če se odločiš,
14:10
that you never want to,
341
838499
1765
da tega nikoli nočeš početi,
14:12
the fact that there are other people
342
840264
1634
že dejstvo, da obstajajo drugi,
14:13
who are willing to and able to resist
343
841898
2204
ki se hočejo in zmorejo
14:16
and be adversarial to those in power —
344
844102
2034
zoperstaviti ljudem na oblasti —
14:18
dissidents and journalists
345
846136
1534
disidenti, novinarji,
14:19
and activists and a whole range of others —
346
847670
2088
aktivisti in številni drugi —
14:21
is something that brings us all collective good
347
849758
2494
je nekaj, kar prinaša skupno dobro,
14:24
that we should want to preserve.
348
852252
2978
in nekaj, kar moramo ohranjati.
14:27
Equally critical is that the measure
349
855230
2094
Prav tako odločilen pokazatelj,
14:29
of how free a society is
350
857324
2263
kako svobodna je neka družba,
14:31
is not how it treats its good,
351
859587
2150
ni njeno ravnanje
14:33
obedient, compliant citizens,
352
861737
2463
z dobrimi, poslušnimi državljani,
14:36
but how it treats its dissidents
353
864200
1840
temveč ravnanje z disidenti
14:38
and those who resist orthodoxy.
354
866040
3115
in tistimi, ki se upirajo pravovernosti.
14:41
But the most important reason
355
869155
1597
Najpomembnejši razlog pa je ta,
14:42
is that a system of mass surveillance
356
870752
2401
da sistem množičnega nadzora
14:45
suppresses our own freedom in all sorts of ways.
357
873153
2617
zatira našo svobodo na vse možne načine.
14:47
It renders off-limits
358
875770
1801
Prepoveduje številne vedenjske možnosti,
14:49
all kinds of behavioral choices
359
877571
2006
14:51
without our even knowing that it's happened.
360
879577
3553
ne da bi se tega sploh zavedali.
Priznana socialistična aktivistka
14:55
The renowned socialist activist Rosa Luxemburg
361
883130
2482
Rosa Luxemburg je nekoč dejala,
14:57
once said, "He who does not move
362
885612
2493
"Kdor se ne premika,
15:00
does not notice his chains."
363
888105
3356
ne opazi svojih okov."
15:03
We can try and render the chains
364
891461
1689
Okove množičnega nadzora
15:05
of mass surveillance invisible or undetectable,
365
893150
3089
lahko poskušamo narediti
nevidne ali neopazne,
nevidne ali neopazne,
15:08
but the constraints that it imposes on us
366
896239
2666
vendar omejitve, ki jih nadzor vsiljuje,
15:10
do not become any less potent.
367
898905
2545
s tem ne postanejo nič šibkejše.
15:13
Thank you very much.
368
901450
1608
Najlepša hvala.
15:15
(Applause)
369
903058
1431
(Aplavz)
15:16
Thank you.
370
904489
1507
Hvala.
15:17
(Applause)
371
905996
4897
(Aplavz)
15:22
Thank you.
372
910893
2387
Hvala.
15:25
(Applause)
373
913280
2842
(Aplavz)
15:31
Bruno Giussani: Glenn, thank you.
374
919320
2292
Hvala, Glenn.
15:33
The case is rather convincing, I have to say,
375
921612
2289
Prepričljivi argumenti, ni kaj.
15:35
but I want to bring you back
376
923901
1565
Če nimate nič proti,
15:37
to the last 16 months and to Edward Snowden
377
925466
3351
bi vprašal par vprašanj
o zadnjih 16 mesecih in Edwardu Snowdenu.
15:40
for a few questions, if you don't mind.
378
928817
2065
15:42
The first one is personal to you.
379
930882
2488
Prvo vprašanje je osebno.
15:45
We have all read about the arrest of your partner,
380
933370
3041
Vsi smo brali o aretaciji vašega partnerja
15:48
David Miranda in London, and other difficulties,
381
936411
3310
Davida Mirande v Londonu
in ostalih težavah,
in ostalih težavah,
15:51
but I assume that
382
939721
2084
vendar sklepam, da ste bili
15:53
in terms of personal engagement and risk,
383
941805
3356
da ste bili z vidika osebne vpletenosti
in tveganja
in tveganja
15:57
that the pressure on you is not that easy
384
945161
1804
deležni veliko pritiska
15:58
to take on the biggest sovereign
organizations in the world.
organizations in the world.
385
946965
2945
v spopadu z najmočnejšimi
organizacijami na svetu.
organizacijami na svetu.
16:01
Tell us a little bit about that.
386
949910
2435
Povejte nam več o tem.
16:04
Glenn Greenwald: You know, I think
one of the things that happens
one of the things that happens
387
952345
1655
Ena od stvari, ki mislim,
16:06
is that people's courage in this regard
388
954000
1932
da se zgodijo v taki situaciji,
16:07
gets contagious,
389
955932
1712
je pogum, ki postane nalezljiv.
16:09
and so although I and the other
journalists with whom I was working
journalists with whom I was working
390
957644
3463
Čeprav smo se vsi novinarji
16:13
were certainly aware of the risk —
391
961107
1536
zavedali nevarnosti —
16:14
the United States continues to be
the most powerful country in the world
the most powerful country in the world
392
962643
2722
ZDA ostaja najmočnejša država na svetu
16:17
and doesn't appreciate it when you
393
965365
1998
in nerada vidi, da razkriješ
16:19
disclose thousands of their secrets
394
967363
1922
na tisoče njenih skrivnosti
16:21
on the Internet at will —
395
969285
2511
na inetrnetu, kadar hočeš —
16:23
seeing somebody who is a 29-year-old
396
971796
3469
videti običajnega 29-letnika,
16:27
ordinary person who grew up in
397
975265
2019
ki je odraščal
16:29
a very ordinary environment
398
977284
2313
v zelo običajnem okolju,
s tolikšno stopnjo
s tolikšno stopnjo
16:31
exercise the degree of principled
courage that Edward Snowden risked,
courage that Edward Snowden risked,
399
979597
3723
načelnega poguma, kot jo premogel Snowden,
16:35
knowing that he was going to go
to prison for the rest of his life
to prison for the rest of his life
400
983320
2220
vedoč, da bo zaprt do konca življenja
16:37
or that his life would unravel,
401
985540
1782
ali da se mu bo življenje sesulo,
16:39
inspired me and inspired other journalists
402
987322
1975
je navdihnilo mene in ostale novinarje,
16:41
and inspired, I think, people around the world,
403
989297
1823
mislim pa, da tudi ljudi po svetu,
16:43
including future whistleblowers,
404
991120
1688
vključno z bodočimi žvižgači,
16:44
to realize that they can engage
in that kind of behavior as well.
in that kind of behavior as well.
405
992808
3515
da spoznajo, da lahko
tudi sami počnejo take stvari.
tudi sami počnejo take stvari.
16:48
BG: I'm curious about your
relationship with Ed Snowden,
relationship with Ed Snowden,
406
996323
2486
Zanima me vaš odnos s Snowdenom.
16:50
because you have spoken with him a lot,
407
998809
3181
Z njim ste veliko govorili
16:53
and you certainly continue doing so,
408
1001990
1763
in veliko govorite še naprej,
16:55
but in your book, you never call him Edward,
409
1003753
2636
vendar mu v svoji knjigi nikoli ne rečete
16:58
nor Ed, you say "Snowden." How come?
410
1006389
3460
Edward ali Ed, ampak "Snowden". Kako to?
17:01
GG: You know, I'm sure that's something
411
1009849
1644
Veste, prepričan sem,
17:03
for a team of psychologists to examine.
(Laughter)
(Laughter)
412
1011493
3331
da bi to lahko preučevala
ekipa psihologov.
ekipa psihologov.
17:06
I don't really know. The reason I think that,
413
1014824
3589
Ne vem. Mislim, da zato,
17:10
one of the important objectives that he actually had,
414
1018413
3554
ker je bil eden njegovih glavnih ciljev
17:13
one of his, I think, most important tactics,
415
1021967
2336
oziroma taktik, da je vedel,
17:16
was that he knew that one of the ways
416
1024303
2207
kako bi lahko osredotočanje medijev
17:18
to distract attention from the
substance of the revelations
substance of the revelations
417
1026510
2690
nanj kot na osebo preusmerilo pozornost
17:21
would be to try and personalize the focus on him,
418
1029200
2650
stran od bistva razkritij.
17:23
and for that reason, he stayed out of the media.
419
1031850
2067
Zato se tudi ni hotel
pojavljati v medijih.
pojavljati v medijih.
17:25
He tried not to ever have his personal life
420
1033917
2509
Svoje življenje je vedno poskušal
17:28
subject to examination,
421
1036426
1679
umakniti pred analiziranjem.
17:30
and so I think calling him Snowden
422
1038105
2714
Zato mislim, da s ga tem,
ko mu rečem Snowden,
ko mu rečem Snowden,
17:32
is a way of just identifying him
as this important historical actor
as this important historical actor
423
1040819
3574
le označim kot pomembno zgodovinsko osebo,
17:36
rather than trying to personalize him in a way
424
1044393
1872
namesto da ga poskušam personalizirati
17:38
that might distract attention from the substance.
425
1046265
2880
na načine, ki bi lahko odvračali
pozornost od bistva.
pozornost od bistva.
17:41
Moderator: So his revelations, your analysis,
426
1049145
1457
Ta razkritja, vaša analiza,
17:42
the work of other journalists,
427
1050602
1776
in delo ostalih novinarjev
17:44
have really developed the debate,
428
1052378
3000
so resnično razvili debato,
17:47
and many governments, for example, have reacted,
429
1055378
2128
veliko vlad se je na primer odzvalo,
17:49
including in Brazil, with projects and programs
430
1057506
2604
med drugim brazilska
s projekti in programi,
s projekti in programi,
17:52
to reshape a little bit the design of the Internet, etc.
431
1060110
2854
ki bi vsaj malo preoblikovali internet.
17:54
There are a lot of things going on in that sense.
432
1062964
2752
V tem pogledu se trenutno dogaja veliko.
17:57
But I'm wondering, for you personally,
433
1065716
2270
Zanima pa me, kaj je
17:59
what is the endgame?
434
1067986
1651
končnica za vas osebno.
18:01
At what point will you think,
435
1069637
1633
Na kateri točki si boste rekli,
18:03
well, actually, we've succeeded
in moving the dial?
in moving the dial?
436
1071270
3192
zdaj smo pa uspeli premakniti kolesje?
18:06
GG: Well, I mean, the endgame for me as a journalist
437
1074462
2278
Kot novinar je zame končnica
18:08
is very simple, which is to make sure
438
1076740
2443
zelo preprosta, in sicer
ko bom prepričan, da je vsak dokument,
18:11
that every single document that's newsworthy
439
1079183
2012
vreden objave in razkritja tudi objavljen,
18:13
and that ought to be disclosed
440
1081195
1646
18:14
ends up being disclosed,
441
1082841
1480
in da so skrivnosti,
18:16
and that secrets that should never
have been kept in the first place
have been kept in the first place
442
1084321
2037
ki to ne bi smele biti,
18:18
end up uncovered.
443
1086358
1475
na koncu razkrite.
18:19
To me, that's the essence of journalism
444
1087833
1847
To je zame bistvo novinarstva
18:21
and that's what I'm committed to doing.
445
1089680
1527
in temu se bom posvetil.
18:23
As somebody who finds mass surveillance odious
446
1091207
2474
Kot nekdo, ki se mu množični nadzor gnusi
18:25
for all the reasons I just talked about and a lot more,
447
1093681
2187
zaradi prej naštetega
in veliko drugih razlogov,
in veliko drugih razlogov,
18:27
I mean, I look at this as work that will never end
448
1095868
2526
to vidim kot delo, ki nima konca,
18:30
until governments around the world
449
1098394
2177
vsaj dokler oblast po svetu
18:32
are no longer able to subject entire populations
450
1100571
2619
ne bo več zmožna nadzirati
celotnih narodov, razen v primeru,
18:35
to monitoring and surveillance
451
1103190
1486
18:36
unless they convince some court or some entity
452
1104676
2589
ko prepričajo sodišče ali drugo
18:39
that the person they've targeted
453
1107265
1722
pravno osebo, da je njihova tarča
18:40
has actually done something wrong.
454
1108987
2591
dejansko storila nekaj narobe.
18:43
To me, that's the way that
privacy can be rejuvenated.
privacy can be rejuvenated.
455
1111578
3235
Mislim, da je to način
za ponovno obuditev zasebnosti.
za ponovno obuditev zasebnosti.
18:46
BG: So Snowden is very,
as we've seen at TED,
as we've seen at TED,
456
1114813
2346
Kot smo videli na TED-u,
18:49
is very articulate in presenting and portraying himself
457
1117159
2768
je Snowden zelo dober govorec,
ko se predstavlja kot zagovornik
18:51
as a defender of democratic values
458
1119927
2280
demokratičnih vrednot in načel.
18:54
and democratic principles.
459
1122207
1713
18:55
But then, many people really
find it difficult to believe
find it difficult to believe
460
1123920
3028
Vendar veliko ljudi težko verjame,
18:58
that those are his only motivations.
461
1126948
2402
da je to njegov edini povod.
19:01
They find it difficult to believe
462
1129350
1478
Težko verjamejo,
19:02
that there was no money involved,
463
1130828
1621
da v igri ni bilo denarja,
19:04
that he didn't sell some of those secrets,
464
1132449
1911
da nekaterih skrivnosti ni celo
19:06
even to China and to Russia,
465
1134360
1829
prodal Kitajski ali Rusiji,
19:08
which are clearly not the best friends
466
1136189
2544
ki seveda trenutno nista
najboljši prijateljici ZDA.
19:10
of the United States right now.
467
1138733
2169
Prepričan sem tudi,
19:12
And I'm sure many people in the room
468
1140902
1706
da mnoge v tej sobi zanima isto vprašanje.
19:14
are wondering the same question.
469
1142608
2270
19:16
Do you consider it possible there is
470
1144878
1883
Se vam zdi možno, da obstaja
19:18
that part of Snowden we've not seen yet?
471
1146761
2612
obraz Snowdena, ki ga še nismo videli?
19:21
GG: No, I consider that absurd and idiotic.
472
1149373
3181
Ne, to se mi zdi absurdno in idiotsko.
19:24
(Laughter) If you wanted to,
473
1152554
2414
Če bi res hoteli —
19:26
and I know you're just playing devil's advocate,
474
1154968
2462
vem, da igrate hudičevega advokata —
19:29
but if you wanted to sell
475
1157430
3211
ampak če bi hoteli prodati
skrivnosti drugi državi,
19:32
secrets to another country,
476
1160641
1906
kar bi Snowden lahko storil
19:34
which he could have done and become
477
1162547
1717
in zraven še ekstremno obogatel,
19:36
extremely rich doing so,
478
1164264
1646
19:37
the last thing you would
do is take those secrets
do is take those secrets
479
1165910
1981
bi bila zadnja stvar, da bi dokumente
19:39
and give them to journalists and
ask journalists to publish them,
ask journalists to publish them,
480
1167891
2744
izročili novinarjem
in jih prosili za objavo,
in jih prosili za objavo,
19:42
because it makes those secrets worthless.
481
1170635
2026
saj bi s tem izgubile vso vrednost.
19:44
People who want to enrich themselves
482
1172661
1648
Ljudje, ki želijo obogateti,
19:46
do it secretly by selling
secrets to the government,
secrets to the government,
483
1174309
1970
vladam prodajajo skrivnosti naskrivaj.
19:48
but I think there's one important point worth making,
484
1176279
1821
Je pa še ena pomembna točka,
19:50
which is, that accusation comes from
485
1178100
2238
in sicer obtožbe, ki prihajajo
19:52
people in the U.S. government,
486
1180338
1832
s strani ameriške vlade,
19:54
from people in the media who are loyalists
487
1182170
2020
in s strani ljudi v medijih,
19:56
to these various governments,
488
1184190
1598
ki so zvesti tem vladam.
19:57
and I think a lot of times when people make accusations like that about other people —
489
1185788
3148
Ljudje, ki obtožujejo druge na tak način —
20:00
"Oh, he can't really be doing this
490
1188936
1605
"Tega pa že ne počne
20:02
for principled reasons,
491
1190541
1665
iz načelnih razlogov, zagotovo ima
20:04
he must have some corrupt, nefarious reason" —
492
1192206
2242
kakšen pokvarjen in podel razlog" —
20:06
they're saying a lot more about themselves
493
1194448
2107
po mojem mnenju povejo več o sebi,
20:08
than they are the target of their accusations,
494
1196555
1826
kot o človeku, na katerega
20:10
because — (Applause) —
495
1198381
4385
letijo obtožbe, ker — (Aplavz)
20:14
those people, the ones who make that accusation,
496
1202766
2520
ljudje, ki tako obtožujejo druge,
20:17
they themselves never act
497
1205286
1904
sami nikoli ne naredijo ničesar
20:19
for any reason other than corrupt reasons,
498
1207190
1922
iz razloga, ki ni pokvarjen,
20:21
so they assume
499
1209112
1632
zato sklepajo,
20:22
that everybody else is plagued by the same disease
500
1210744
2632
da so tudi ostali okuženi
20:25
of soullessness as they are,
501
1213376
2002
z isto boleznijo brezdušnosti,
20:27
and so that's the assumption.
502
1215378
1871
in pridejo do takšnega zaključka.
20:29
(Applause)
503
1217249
1627
(Aplavz)
20:30
BG: Glenn, thank you very much.
GG: Thank you very much.
GG: Thank you very much.
504
1218876
2484
Glenn, najlepša hvala.
- Najlepša hvala.
- Najlepša hvala.
20:33
BG: Glenn Greenwald.
505
1221360
2332
Glenn Greenwald.
20:35
(Applause)
506
1223692
1114
(Aplavz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Glenn Greenwald - JournalistGlenn Greenwald is the journalist who has done the most to expose and explain the Edward Snowden files.
Why you should listen
As one of the first journalists privy to NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden’s archives, Glenn Greenwald has a unique window into the inner workings of the NSA and Britain's GCHQ. A vocal advocate for civil liberties in the face of growing post-9/11 authoritarianism, Greenwald was a natural outlet for Snowden, who’d admired his combative writing style in Salon and elsewhere.
Since his original Guardian exposés of Snowden’s revelations, Pulitzer winner Greenwald continues to stoke public debate on surveillance and privacy both in the media, on The Intercept, and with his new book No Place to Hide -- and suggests that the there are more shocking revelations to come.
Glenn Greenwald | Speaker | TED.com