TEDxNorthwesternU
Alice Dreger: Is anatomy destiny?
Alice Dreger: 身體結構決定命運？
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Alice Dreger的工作涉及面對身體結構在邊緣的人，例如連體嬰和陰陽人。在她的觀察中，那決定男女的性別界線往往模糊曖昧，其中包涵身體結構學上的區別。這引來一個巨大的問題：我們爲什麽要讓身體結構決定我們的命運?
Alice Dreger - Historian
Alice Dreger studies history and anatomy, and acts as a patient advocate. Full bio
Alice Dreger studies history and anatomy, and acts as a patient advocate. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I want you to imagine two couples
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我希望大家設想一下， 兩對夫婦
00:18
in the middle of 1979
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在1979年的年中
00:20
on the exact same day, at the exact same moment,
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在相同的一天，相同的時刻
00:23
each conceiving a baby -- okay?
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每對懷上了一個孩子 -- 好。
00:25
So two couples each conceiving one baby.
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那麼兩對夫婦各自都都懷上了一個孩子
00:27
Now I don't want you to spend too much time imagining the conception,
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但我不希望大家花太多時間去想像懷孕的進程,
00:30
because if you spend all that time imagining that conception,
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因為如果你花太多時間去想它,
00:32
you're not going to listen to me.
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你就不會聽我說下去。
00:34
So just imagine that for a moment.
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所以稍微想一下就好了。
00:36
And in this scenario,
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那麼在這種情況下,
00:38
I want to imagine that, in one case,
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我來設想一下，一種情況是
00:40
the sperm is carrying a Y chromosome,
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攜帶者Y染色體的精子
00:42
meeting that X chromosome of the egg.
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遇到攜帶者X染色體的卵子
00:44
And in the other case,
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另一種情況
00:46
the sperm is carrying an X chromosome,
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攜帶者X染色體的精子,
00:48
meeting the X chromosome of the egg.
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遇到攜帶者X染色體的卵子。
00:50
Both are viable; both take off.
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兩種情況都可能
00:52
We'll come back to these people later.
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我們之後再來看這兩對夫婦。
00:54
So I wear two hats
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在我所從事的領域
00:56
in most of what I do.
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我擔任兩個角色。
00:58
As the one hat,
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一個角色是,
01:00
I do history of anatomy.
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我做解剖身體結構學歷史研究。
01:02
I'm a historian by training,
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我是個史學工作者,
01:04
and what I study in that case
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我所研究的是
01:06
is the way that people have dealt with anatomy --
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人類對於身體結構的處理方法--
01:09
meaning human bodies, animal bodies --
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即人類軀體，動物軀體--
01:11
how they dealt with bodily fluids, concepts of bodies;
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他們如何處理非常態的軀體，概念上的軀體;
01:14
how have they thought about bodies.
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他們是如何認識軀體。
01:16
The other hat that I've worn in my work
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另一個角色是
01:18
is as an activist,
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一名活動家
01:20
as a patient advocate --
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作為一個為病人辯護人的角色--
01:22
or, as I sometimes say, as an impatient advocate --
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或者說，像我有時候說的，是一個很急切的宣導者的角色--
01:25
for people who are patients of doctors.
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為了那些醫生的病人們。
01:27
In that case, what I've worked with
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那樣的話，在我工作中
01:29
is people who have body types
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所接觸到的是一些
01:31
that challenge social norms.
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挑戰著社會規範的人。
01:33
So some of what I've worked on, for example,
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因此，我接觸到的，例如
01:35
is people who are conjoined twins --
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像連體嬰兒這樣的人,
01:37
two people within one body.
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兩個人共用一個身體。
01:39
Some of what I've worked on is people who have dwarfism --
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還有一些是侏儒症患者,
01:41
so people who are much shorter than typical.
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他們比一般人要矮小的多。
01:44
And a lot of what I've worked on
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另外，許多我接觸的人
01:46
is people who have atypical sex --
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的性別與眾不同 --
01:48
so people who don't have the standard male
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即他們沒有很標準的男性特徵
01:50
or the standard female body types.
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或者女性特的身體類型。
01:52
And as a general term, we can use the term intersex for this.
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總的來說，這個症狀可以被叫做雙性人。
01:56
Intersex comes in a lot of different forms.
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雙性可以有多種的形式。
01:58
I'll just give you a few examples
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我來舉幾個例子
02:00
of the types of ways you can have sex
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來說明你可以具有
02:02
that isn't standard for male or female.
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既不是標準的男性特徵也不是標準的女性特徵的類型。
02:04
So in one instance,
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例子之一,
02:06
you can have somebody who has an XY chromosomal basis,
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一個人可以擁有XY染色體,
02:09
and that SRY gene on the Y chromosome
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並且，在Y染色體上的SRY基因(雄性性別決定基因)
02:12
tells the proto-gonads, which we all have in the fetal life,
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刺激我們在胎兒時期都有的原始性腺
02:14
to become testes.
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變成睾丸。
02:16
And so in the fetal life the testes are pumping out testosterone.
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因此在胎兒時期，睾丸放出睾丸激素。
02:19
But because this individual lacks receptors
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但是這個個體缺少受體
02:22
to hear that testosterone,
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來接收睾丸激素,
02:24
the body doesn't react to the testosterone.
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身體不能對睾丸激素做出反應。
02:26
And this is a syndrome called androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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這是一種叫做雄激素不敏感（睾丸女性化）綜合征。
02:30
So lots of levels of testosterone, but no reaction to it.
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所以，雄激素的數量很大，但是不能引起反應。
02:33
As a consequence, the body develops
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因此，身體就會朝著
02:35
more along the female typical path.
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女性化的趨勢發展。
02:37
When the child is born, she looks like a girl.
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當嬰兒誕生時，她看起來像個女孩兒。
02:39
She is a girl. She is raised as a girl.
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她就是女孩兒，並且被當作小姑娘來撫養。
02:42
And it's often not until she hits puberty
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大多數情況，直到青春期
02:44
and she's growing and developing breasts,
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她的胸部開始發育的時候,
02:46
but she's not getting her period,
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她卻沒有經期,
02:48
that somebody figures out something's up here.
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於是被開始發現有一些不妥。
02:50
And they do some tests and figure out
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於是他們檢查發現
02:52
that, instead of having ovaries inside and a uterus,
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她並沒有發育卵巢和子宮,
02:54
she actually has testes inside, and she has a Y chromosome.
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實際上，在她身體內有睾丸，並且她攜帶著Y染色體。
02:57
Now what's important to understand
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現在，有一個重要問題需要說明的是
02:59
is you may think of this person as really being male,
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大家一定認為這個人實際上是個男孩兒,
03:01
but they're really not.
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但也並非如此。
03:03
Females, like males,
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女孩, 像男孩同樣,
03:05
have in our bodies something called the adrenal glands.
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在我們身體內有一個器官叫做腎上腺。
03:07
They're in the back of our body.
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它在我們身體的後部。
03:09
And the adrenal glands make androgens,
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負責分泌雄性激素,
03:11
which are a masculinizing hormone.
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即一種雄性荷爾蒙。
03:13
Most females like me -- I believe myself to be a typical female --
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像我一樣的大多數女性--我相信我自己是個典型的女性--
03:15
I don't actually know my chromosomal make-up
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我其實不太清楚我的染色體的組成
03:17
but I think I'm probably typical --
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但是我想我應該是可以代表典型性的 --
03:19
most females like me are actually androgen-sensitive.
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大多數像我一樣的女性實際上是雄激素敏感。
03:22
We're making androgen, and we're responding to androgens.
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我們分泌雄性激素，並且對它有反應。
03:25
The consequence is that somebody like me
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結果是，那些像我一樣的人,
03:27
has actually had a brain exposed to more androgens
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大腦暴露在更多的雄性激素下
03:30
than the woman born with testes
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而不是出生時就有睾丸
03:32
who has androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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即雄性激素不敏感綜合征。
03:34
So sex is really complicated; it's not just that intersex people
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所以說性別是個非常複雜的東西；不僅僅是那些雙性的人
03:36
are in the middle of all the sex spectrum --
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即處在兩性之間的人 --
03:38
in some ways, they can be all over the place.
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在某些方面，這種人到處都是。
03:40
Another example:
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還有一個例子:
03:42
a few years ago I got a call from a man who was 19 years old,
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幾年前，我接到一個19歲男子打來的電話,
03:45
who was born a boy, raised a boy,
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他生下來是個男孩，也被當作男孩來養,
03:47
had a girlfriend, had sex with his girlfriend,
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後來有了女朋友，也和女友發生了性關係,
03:50
had a life as a guy
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一直過著男孩的生活,
03:52
and had just found out that he had ovaries and a uterus inside.
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但最近，他發現自己體內有卵巢和子宮。
03:55
What he had was an extreme form
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他所患的是一種極端形式的
03:57
of a condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
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叫做先天性腎上腺皮質增生症。
03:59
He had XX chromosomes,
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他攜帶XX染色體
04:01
and in the womb,
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並且在子宮內的時候,
04:03
his adrenal glands were in such high gear
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他的腎上腺很活躍
04:05
that it created, essentially, a masculine hormonal environment.
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從而形成了一個男性荷爾蒙的環境。
04:09
And as a consequence, his genitals were masculinzed,
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結果就是，他發育了男性生殖器官,
04:11
his brain was subject
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他的大腦接受了
04:13
to the more typical masculine component of hormones.
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更多的典型的男性荷爾蒙的成分。
04:15
And he was born looking like a boy -- nobody suspected anything.
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因此他生下來看起來像個男孩兒--根本沒人懷疑。
04:18
And it was only when he had reached the age of 19
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只有當他長到19歲的時候
04:21
that he began to have enough medical problems
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當他開始遇到生理問題的時候
04:23
actually from menstruating internally,
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也就是說從體內出現月經起,
04:25
that doctors figured out that, in fact, he was female internally.
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醫生指出，實際上他的內部是女性。
04:28
Okay, so just one more quick example
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好，我們再來快看一個例子,
04:30
of a way you can have intersex.
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可能具有兩性特徵的例子。
04:32
Some people who have XX chromosomes
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一些有XX染色體的人
04:34
develop what are called ovotestis,
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會發育一種叫做卵睾的器官,
04:36
which is when you have ovarian tissue
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也就是當卵巢組織
04:38
with testicular tissue wrapped around it.
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被睾丸組織包裹起來的一種器官。
04:40
And we're not exactly sure why that happens.
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我們還不能確定它的成因。
04:42
So sex can come in lots of different varieties.
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所以說性別可以是很多種形式。
04:45
The reason
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孩子們
04:47
that children with these kinds of bodies --
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擁有這些身體特徵的--
04:49
whether it's dwarfism, or it's conjoined twinning,
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不論是侏儒症，或者連體嬰兒
04:52
or it's an intersex type --
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或者是雙性型的--
04:54
are often normalized by surgeons
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經常被外科醫生要求變得和正常人一樣的原因
04:56
is not because it actually leaves them better off
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實際上不是因為那樣
04:58
in terms of physical health.
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對身體健康比較好。
05:00
In many cases, people are actually perfectly healthy.
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因為很多情況下，他們的身體其實都很健康。
05:03
The reason they're often subject to various kinds of surgeries
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他們接受各種外科手術的原因
05:06
is because they threaten our social categories.
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是因為他們恐懼我們社會上對人的分類。
05:09
Or system has been based typically on the idea
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或者說社會體系已經有一個典型的認識
05:12
that a particular kind of anatomy comes with a particular identity.
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也就是一個有特殊身體結構的人，伴隨著特殊的身份。
05:15
So we have the concept that what it means to be a woman
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因此，我們的概念就是最為一個女人
05:17
is to have a female identity;
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就必須有女性的特性;
05:19
what it means to be a black person is, allegedly,
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以此類推，一個黑人
05:21
is to have an African anatomy
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就得具有在你的履歷中
05:24
in terms of your history.
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非洲人的身體結構特徵。
05:26
And so we have this terribly simplistic idea.
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因此我們就有了這種過於簡單而糟糕的認識。
05:29
And when we're faced with a body
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當我們面對一個
05:31
that actually presents us something quite different,
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某些方面是完全與眾不同的身體的時候,
05:34
it startles us in terms of those categorizations.
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那些把他們歸為另類的想法讓我們感到吃驚。
05:37
So we have a lot of very romantic ideas in our culture
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應此我們的文化中有很多關於個人主義
05:39
about individualism.
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不切實際的想法。
05:41
And our nation's really founded on a very romantic concept of individualism.
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並且我們國家建立在一個非常不實際的個人主義的概念上。
05:44
Well you can imagine how startling then it is
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好，你可以想像這會是多麼令人震驚,
05:47
when you have children that are born
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倘若你有兩個孩子
05:49
who are two people inside of one body.
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出生的時候是兩個身體生在一個身體中。
05:51
Where I ran into the most heat from this most recently
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我最近一次遇到這種情況是
05:55
was last year the South African runner, Caster Semenya,
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去年的時候，非洲田徑運動員，卡斯特爾·塞門亞,
05:58
had her sex called into question at the International Games in Berlin.
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在柏林國際比賽中被質疑性別問題。
06:01
I had a lot of journalists calling me, asking me,
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許多記者給我打電話，問我:
06:04
"Which is the test they're going to run
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「他們會用哪種檢測方法
06:06
that will tell us whether or not
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來向大家證明
06:08
Caster Semenya is male or female?"
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卡斯特爾·塞門亞是男還是女？」
06:10
And I had to explain to the journalists there isn't such a test.
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於是我不得不跟他們解釋說，根本沒有檢測的方法。
06:13
In fact, we now know
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事實上，我們現在已經瞭解
06:15
that sex is complicated enough
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性別是非常複雜的,
06:17
that we have to admit
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我們不得不承認
06:19
nature doesn't draw the line for us between male and female,
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大自然根本就沒有一個明確的分界線來區分男性或女性,
06:22
or between male and intersex and female and intersex;
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或者男性和雙性以及女性和雙性;
06:25
we actually draw that line on nature.
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這條分界線實際上是我們自己畫的。
06:28
So what we have is a sort of situation
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因此我們現在的情況是
06:30
where the farther our science goes,
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科學越發展
06:32
the more we have to admit to ourselves
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我們越要對我們本身承認
06:34
that these categories
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這些性別的分類形式,
06:36
that we thought of as stable anatomical categories
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也就是我們認為很理所當然的身體結構學上的分類
06:38
that mapped very simply
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即過於簡單把人
06:40
to stable identity categories
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分成了不同的性別群體分類
06:42
are a lot more fuzzy than we thought.
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實際情況要比我們想像的模糊的多。
06:44
And it's not just in terms of sex.
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並且這不僅僅是關於性別的問題。
06:46
It's also in terms of race,
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也同樣是關於種族的問題,
06:48
which turns out to be vastly more complicated
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這個複雜程度
06:50
than our terminology has allowed.
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遠不是我們的學術語言所能形容的。
06:52
As we look, we get into all sorts of uncomfortable areas.
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如我們所見，我們涉及各種各樣艱難的領域。
06:55
We look, for example, about the fact
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我們來看一個例子，現實情況是
06:57
that we share at least 95 percent of our DNA
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我們用95%的人類的DNA
06:59
with chimpanzees.
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與大猩猩進行對比。
07:01
What are we to make of the fact
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我們該如何領受事實上
07:03
that we differ from them only really by a few nucleotides?
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人類和大猩猩的DNA只是在一些核苷酸上有所不同?
07:06
And as we get farther and farther with our science,
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科技越是發展,
07:09
we get more and more into a discomforted zone
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我們越會涉及到讓人苦惱的領域,
07:11
where we have to acknowledge
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那些我們現在必須認識到的
07:13
that the simplistic categories we've had
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曾經過於簡單化
07:15
are probably overly simplistic.
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的生物分類領域。
07:17
So we're seeing this
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正因如此，我們正在審視著
07:19
in all sorts of places in human life.
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人類生活中的各個領域
07:21
One of the places we're seeing it, for example,
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我們看到其中一個領域，舉個例子,
07:23
in our culture today, in the United States today,
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當今美國的文化領域,
07:25
is battles over the beginning of life and the end of life.
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激烈爭辯著生命的起源和終結。
07:28
We have difficult conversations
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我們有一個艱難的討論
07:30
about at what point we decide a body becomes a human,
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關於我們從什麼時候一個軀體成為了一個人,
07:33
such that it has a different right than a fetal life.
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從而有了不同於胎兒的權利。
07:36
We have very difficult conversations nowadays --
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我們當今有一個非常困難的爭論--
07:38
probably not out in the open as much as within medicine --
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也許在外部不如在醫學界內爭論的激烈--
07:41
about the question of when somebody's dead.
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是關於何時認定為人死亡的疑問。
07:43
In the past, our ancestors never had to struggle so much
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過去，人死的時候,
07:45
with this question of when somebody was dead.
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我們的祖先從來不會過多的糾結於此。
07:47
At most, they'd stick a feather on somebody's nose,
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最多也就是把一個羽毛粘在人的鼻子下,
07:49
and if it twitched, they didn't bury them yet.
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如果羽毛動了，旁人就不會把他們埋掉。
07:51
If it stopped twitching, you bury them.
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如果羽毛不動，就會埋了他們。
07:54
But today, we have a situation
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但是如今的情況都是
07:56
where we want to take vital organs out of beings
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我們希望把死者的器官
07:58
and give them to other beings.
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移植到其他人的身體上。
08:00
And as a consequence,
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結果就是
08:02
we're stuck with having to struggle with this really difficult question
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我們開始糾結在上面所提到的難題中
08:04
about who's dead,
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關於到底是誰死了沒有。
08:06
and this leads us to a really difficult situation
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這導致我們進入一個很困難的情況,
08:08
where we don't have such simple categories as we've had before.
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這個情況不適用之前過於簡單的分類。
08:11
Now you might think that all this breaking-down of categories
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現在你也許會想，所有的這些正在崩潰的分類
08:14
would make somebody like me really happy.
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也許會讓像我這樣的人感到高興。
08:16
I'm a political progressive, I defend people with unusual bodies,
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我是一個在政治觀點上不斷進步的人，我維護那些身體異于常人的人,
08:19
but I have to admit to you that it makes me nervous.
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但是我必須承認，這種改變讓我感到不安。
08:21
Understanding that these categories
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知道這個群體生活的不穩定程度
08:23
are really much more unstable than we thought makes me tense.
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要遠遠高過我們的想像令我感到緊張。
08:26
And it makes me tense
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我的緊張是來自
08:28
from the point of view of thinking about democracy.
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於民主的觀點。
08:30
So in order to tell you about that tension,
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所以，為了告訴大家這種緊張的程度,
08:32
I have to first admit to you that I'm a huge fan of the Founding Fathers.
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我首先要承認，我是開國元勳的忠實擁躉。
08:35
I know they were racists, I know they were sexist,
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我知道他們是種族主義者，他們是男性至上主義者,
08:37
but they were great.
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然而他們還是非常偉大。
08:39
I mean, they were so brave and so bold
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我的意思是，他們是如此勇敢、無畏
08:42
and so radical in what they did
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並且積極從事他們的事業
08:45
that I find myself watching that cheesy musical "1776" every few years,
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我自己每隔幾年就要重新去欣賞音樂劇“1776”（美國建國史的音樂劇）,
08:48
and it's not because of the music, which is totally forgettable.
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並不是因為他的音樂，音樂是完全可以被忽略的。
08:51
It's because of what happened in 1776
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是因為1776年圍繞著
08:53
with the Founding Fathers.
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建國者們發生的事情。
08:55
The Founding Fathers were, for my point of view,
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建國者們，我認為他們是
08:57
the original anatomical activists,
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最早的結構學活動家,
08:59
and this is why.
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這也是我愛他們的原因。
09:01
What they rejected was an anatomical concept
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他們反對的是一個結構學的概念
09:04
and replaced it with another one
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並且用另一個取而代之
09:06
that was radical and beautiful and held us for 200 years.
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這個基本美好的概念保持了200年。
09:09
So as you all recall,
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大家回憶一下,
09:11
what our Founding Fathers were rejecting was a concept of monarchy,
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我們的建國者們反對的是一個君主制度的概念。
09:14
and the monarchy was basically based
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並且這個君主制是基於
09:16
on a very simplistic concept of anatomy.
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過於簡單化的結構學概念上的。
09:18
The monarchs of the old world
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舊體制下的帝王們
09:20
didn't have a concept of DNA,
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沒有DNA的概念,
09:22
but they did have a concept of birthright.
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但是他們遵從的是「出身」的理念。
09:24
They had a concept of blue blood.
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他們有貴族的概念。
09:26
They had the idea that the people who would be in political power
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他們認為，身在政治權力下的人
09:29
should be in political power
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就應該掌握權力
09:31
because of the blood being passed down
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是因為貴族血統要
09:33
from grandfather to father to son and so forth.
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從祖父到父親到兒子一代代傳承。
09:36
The Founding Fathers rejected that idea,
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建國者們反對這種觀點,
09:38
and they replaced it with a new anatomical concept,
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他們用一種新的結構上的概念取而代之,
09:41
and that concept
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那種概念就是
09:43
was all men are created equal.
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人人平等。
09:45
They leveled that playing field
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他們消除了等級觀念
09:47
and decided the anatomy that mattered
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並且確定新的結構特點
09:49
was the commonality of anatomy,
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是公民平等的結構,
09:51
not the difference in anatomy,
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而不是出身的貴賤。
09:53
and that was a really radical thing to do.
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在當時那確實是一個很激進的改革。
09:56
Now they were doing it in part
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某種程度上，這種改革現在仍然在進行
09:58
because they were part of an Enlightenment system
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因為他們是啟蒙運動系統的一部分,
10:00
where two things were growing up together.
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兩件事情是共同發展的。
10:02
And that was democracy growing up,
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民主制度在當時正在形成,
10:04
but it was also science growing up at the same time.
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但同時科技也在發展。
10:07
And it's really clear, if you look at the history of the Founding Fathers,
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非常明顯的是，如果你注意一下建國者的歷史,
10:09
a lot of them were very interested in science,
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他們當中許多人都對科學很感興趣,
10:11
and they were interested in a concept
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並且他們都對自然主義世界這個概念
10:13
of a naturalistic world.
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很感興趣。
10:15
They were moving away from supernatural explanations,
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他們摒棄超自然的說法,
10:18
and they were rejecting things like a supernatural concept of power,
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他們排斥那些超自然力量的事情,
10:21
where it transmitted
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它被傳播
10:23
because of a very vague concept of birthright.
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是基於非常模糊的身世的理念。
10:26
They were moving towards a naturalistic concept.
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他們宣導自然主義的概念。
10:28
And if you look, for example, in the Declaration of Independence,
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如果你觀察會發現，例如,在獨立宣言中,
10:31
they talk about nature and nature's God.
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他們提及到自然和自然之神。
10:34
They don't talk about God and God's nature.
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他們沒有提到上帝和上帝的自然。
10:36
They're talking about the power of nature
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他們提到自然的力量
10:38
to tell us who we are.
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來解釋我們是誰。
10:40
So as part of that,
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因此作為其中的一部分,
10:42
they were coming to us with a concept
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他們為我們帶來一個概念,
10:44
that was about anatomical commonality.
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那就是人人生來平等。
10:46
And in doing so, they were really setting up in a beautiful way
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為此,他們確實為將來的民權運動
10:49
the Civil Rights movement of the future.
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規劃了一個很美好的道路。
10:51
They didn't think of it that way, but they did it for us, and it was great.
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他們想不到將來會怎樣，但是他們為我們奠定了基礎，這是非常偉大的。
10:54
So what happened years afterward?
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那麼數年後發生了什麼呢？
10:56
What happened was women, for example,
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例如在女性身上都發生了什麼,
10:58
who wanted the right to vote,
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她們渴望投票的權利,
11:00
took the Founding Fathers' concept
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按照建國者的概念
11:02
of anatomical commonality being more important
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人人平等要遠重要於
11:04
than anatomical difference
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人的出身,
11:06
and said, "The fact that we have a uterus and ovaries
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她們說：「我們有子宮和卵巢是事實
11:08
is not significant enough in terms of a difference
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這些不同完全不足以
11:11
to mean that we shouldn't have the right to vote,
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意味著我們沒有投票權,
11:13
the right to full citizenship,
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沒有充分的公民權利,
11:15
the right to own property, etc., etc."
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沒有私人財產權,等等。」
11:17
And women successfully argued that.
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女性的主張獲得了成效。
11:19
Next came the successful Civil Rights movement,
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接下來便是成功的民權運動,
11:22
where we found people like Sojourner Truth
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運動中出現了像索傑納·特露絲這樣的人,
11:24
talking about, "Ain't I a woman?"
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她的名言:「我就不是女人嗎？」
11:26
We find men
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我們知道男人
11:28
on the marching lines of the Civil Rights movement
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曾經在民權運動的發展路線上
11:30
saying, "I am a man."
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有句名言「我是個男人」。
11:32
Again, people of color
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此外，有色人群
11:34
appealing to a commonality of anatomy over a difference of anatomy,
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呼籲人人平等而不應種族歧視,
11:36
again, successfully.
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再者，
11:38
We see the same thing with the disability rights movement.
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我們看到同樣的成功案例發生在傷殘人士的權利運動中。
11:42
The problem is, of course,
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問題是，當然,
11:44
that, as we begin to look at all that commonality,
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當我們開始去審視所有的公民,
11:46
we have to begin to question
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我們不得不開始質疑
11:48
why we maintain certain divisions.
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為什麼我們去維護一個固定的界限。
11:50
Now mind you, I want to maintain some divisions,
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現在，需要提醒大家的是，我希望在我們的文化範圍被內
11:52
anatomically, in our culture.
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去保持一些身體結構上的界限。
11:54
For example, I don't want
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舉個例子，我不希望
11:56
to give a fish the same rights as a human.
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給予魚和人類一樣的權利。
11:58
I don't want to say we give up entirely on anatomy.
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我不希望我們放棄一切在身體結構學上的區分界限。
12:00
I don't want to say five-year-olds
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我不希望，一個五歲的孩子
12:02
should be allowed to consent to sex or consent to marry.
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可以被允許有性行為或者說允許結婚。
12:05
So there are some anatomical divisions
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所以說，有一些在身體結構學上的界限
12:07
that make sense to me and that I think we should retain.
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對我們來說是有意義的，我想那些應該被保留。
12:10
But the challenge is trying to figure out which ones they are
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但是，艱巨的任務是試著去找出哪些是應該保留,
12:13
and why do we retain them and do they have meaning.
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為什麼我們要保留它們，它們有什麼意義。
12:16
So let's go back to those two beings
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所以，讓我們回到剛才說到的那兩人
12:18
conceived at the beginning of this talk.
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就是演講一開始所虛構的那兩個人。
12:20
We have two beings, both conceived
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我們有兩對夫婦
12:22
in the middle of 1979 on the exact same day.
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都在1979年年中的同一天懷孕了。
12:25
Let's imagine one of them, Mary,
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讓我們設想一下，瑪麗,
12:27
is born three months prematurely,
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提前三個月出生了,
12:29
so she's born on June 1, 1980.
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因此她出生於1980年6月1日。
12:31
Henry, by contrast, is born at term,
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亨利，相反的，足月出生,
12:33
so he's born on March 1, 1980.
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他出生於1980年3月1日。
12:36
Simply by virtue of the fact
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僅僅是由於
12:38
that Mary was born prematurely three months,
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瑪麗早出生了三個月這個事實
12:40
she comes into all sorts of rights
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從而她獲得各種權利的時間
12:42
three months earlier than Henry does --
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要比亨利早三個月--
12:45
the right to consent to sex,
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允許有性行為的權利,
12:47
the right to vote, the right to drink.
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選舉的權利，喝酒的權利。
12:49
Henry has to wait for all of that,
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亨利就不得不等待
12:51
not because he's actually any different in age, biologically,
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他的生理學年齡沒有任何不同
12:54
except in terms of when he was born.
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只是因為他出生的時間不同。
12:56
We find other kinds of weirdness in terms of what their rights are.
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我們還發現其他一些離奇的權利問題。
12:59
Henry, by virtue of being assumed to be male --
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亨利，由於被假定為男性--
13:02
although I haven't told you that he's the XY one --
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儘管我沒有告訴過大家他是XY型染色體--
13:04
by virtue of being assumed to be male
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由於被假定為男性
13:07
is now liable to be drafted,
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所以現在要應徵入伍,
13:09
which Mary does not need to worry about.
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瑪麗就不需要去擔心這些。
13:11
Mary, meanwhile, cannot in all the states
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與此同時，瑪麗不能在所有的州
13:13
have the same right that Henry has in all the states,
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像亨利一樣享受同樣權利,
13:15
namely, the right to marry.
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也就是，結婚的權利。
13:17
Henry can marry in every state a woman,
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亨利可以在任何一個州跟另一名女子結婚,
13:20
but Mary can only marry today in a few states a woman.
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但是瑪麗如今只能在少數幾個州娶一位女性。
13:24
So we have these anatomical categories that persist
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因此我們所堅持的一些結構上的生物分類
13:27
that are in many ways problematic and questionable.
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在很多方面是有問題並且需要質疑的。
13:30
And the question to me becomes:
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對我來說，問題就變成了：
13:32
What do we do,
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我們應該做什麼,
13:34
as our science gets to be so good
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當我們的科學在身體結構學上
13:36
in looking at anatomy,
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如此先進的時候,
13:38
that we reach the point where we have to admit
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我們已經達到一點是我們不得不去承認的,
13:41
that a democracy that's been based on anatomy
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那就是基於人本身不同的民主
13:44
might start falling apart?
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也許正在崩潰？
13:46
I don't want to give up the science,
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我不想對科學失去希望,
13:48
but at the same time it kind of feels sometimes
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但是同時，有的時候隱約覺得
13:50
like the science is coming out from under us.
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科學的發展是受到我們影響的。
13:52
So where do we go?
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因此我們將走向何方？
13:54
It seems like what happens in our culture
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看起來我們將來發生的事情
13:56
is a sort of pragmatic attitude:
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會帶著一種務實的態度：
13:58
"Well, we have to draw the line somewhere,
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「好，我必須在某處畫一條界限，
14:00
so we will draw the line somewhere."
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那麼我就在那畫一條界限。」
14:02
But a lot of people get stuck in a very strange position.
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但是很多人會因此陷在一個非常尷尬的位置。
14:04
So for example,
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舉個例子,
14:06
Texas has at one point decided
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德克薩斯州有一個決定
14:08
that what it means to marry a man
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嫁給一個男人
14:10
is to mean that you don't have a Y chromosome,
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意味著你沒有Y染色體,
14:12
and what it means to marry a woman means you do have a Y chromosome.
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同時如果你娶一個女人意味著你有Y染色體。
14:14
Now in practice they don't actually test people for their chromosomes.
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現實中，他們實際上不會去檢測染色體。
14:17
But this is also very bizarre,
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但是這也非常奇怪,
14:19
because of the story I told you at the beginning
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因為我一開始告訴了大家那個關於
14:21
about androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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雄激素不敏感綜合征的故事
14:23
If we look at one of the founding fathers of modern democracy,
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如有我們看一下現代民主制度的奠基人之一,
14:26
Dr. Martin Luther King,
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馬丁·路德·金 博士,
14:28
he offers us something of a solution in his "I have a dream" speech.
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在他的<我有一個夢想>的演講中，為我們提供了一個解決方法。
14:31
He says we should judge people "based not on the color of their skin,
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他認為我們「不應該根據一個人的膚色,
14:34
but on the content of their character,"
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而是應該根據他的品格」去評判一個人,
14:36
moving beyond anatomy.
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摒棄人體結構差異。
14:38
And I want to say, "Yeah, that sounds like a really good idea."
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我想說:「是的，那聽起來確實是個好方法。」
14:41
But in practice, how do you do it?
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但實際操作中，你怎麼去做？
14:43
How do you judge people based on the content of character?
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你如何根據他的品德去評判人們？
14:46
I also want to point out
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我還想指出
14:48
that I'm not sure that is how we should distribute rights in terms of humans,
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我不太確定我們應該如何分配人類的權利,
14:51
because, I have to admit, that there are some golden retrievers I know
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因為，我不得不承認，有些黃金獵犬
14:54
that are probably more deserving of social services
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比起我知道的一些人似乎更應該
14:56
than some humans I know.
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得到社會的幫助人們
14:58
I also want to say there are probably also some yellow Labradors that I know
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我還想說，我知道有些拉布拉多犬似乎
15:01
that are more capable of informed, intelligent, mature decisions
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比有些40歲左右的人在性關係問題上
15:04
about sexual relations than some 40-year-olds that I know.
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更慎重，更聰明，更能作出成熟的決定。
15:07
So how do we operationalize
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因此我們如何去衡量
15:10
the question of content of character?
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品德的問題？
15:12
It turns out to be really difficult.
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結果證明是非常困難的。
15:14
And part of me also wonders,
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我還想知道,
15:16
what if content of character
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如果品德的好壞
15:18
turns out to be something that's scannable in the future --
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在未來可以被某個東西衡量--
15:21
able to be seen with an fMRI?
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也許可以用核磁共振成像看見？
15:23
Do we really want to go there?
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我們真的願意走到那一步嗎？
15:25
I'm not sure where we go.
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我不確定我們將走向何方。
15:27
What I do know is that it seems to be really important
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我知道的是應該思考一下
15:29
to think about the idea of the United States being in the lead
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美國所引領的民主存在的問題
15:32
of thinking about this issue of democracy.
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看起來是非常重要的。
15:34
We've done a really good job struggling with democracy,
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我們在爭取民主的問題上已經做得非常好了,
15:37
and I think we would do a good job in the future.
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我認為今後同樣會做的更好。
15:39
We don't have a situation that Iran has, for example,
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我們情況和伊朗不同，比如,
15:42
where a man who's sexually attracted to other men
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一個男人對另一個男人在性上吸引
15:44
is liable to be murdered,
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是可以被謀殺的,
15:46
unless he's willing to submit to a sex change,
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除非他願意改變自己的性取向,
15:48
in which case he's allowed to live.
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那麼他將可以活下來。
15:50
We don't have that kind of situation.
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我們沒有那樣的情況。
15:52
I'm glad to say we don't have the kind of situation with --
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我非常高興的說我們沒有那樣的情況--
15:55
a surgeon I talked to a few years ago
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對一位外科醫生說，那是在數年之前
15:57
who had brought over a set of conjoined twins
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他帶來一個連體嬰兒
16:00
in order to separate them, partly to make a name for himself.
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希望可以幫助他們分解，某種程度上也想讓自己成名。
16:02
But when I was on the phone with him,
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但是當我跟他通電話時,
16:04
asking why he was going to do this surgery --
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問他為什麼希望做這個手術--
16:06
this was a very high-risk surgery --
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因為這是個危險性很高的手術--
16:08
his answer was that, in this other nation,
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他答道，在其他國家
16:10
these children were going to be treated very badly, and so he had to do this.
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這樣的孩子將會被殘忍的對待，因此他必須要幫助他們這麼做。
16:13
My response to him was, "Well, have you considered political asylum
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我對他的回答是，「嗯，你為他們考慮過政治庇護
16:16
instead of a separation surgery?"
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而不是進行手術嗎？」
16:19
The United States has offered tremendous possibility
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美國為像他這樣的人選擇這條路
16:21
for allowing people to be the way they are,
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提供了很大的可能,
16:24
without having them have to be changed for the sake of the state.
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從而不用為了他們的國家改變自己的身體。
16:27
So I think we have to be in the lead.
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因此我認為我們應該要引領這種思想。
16:29
Well, just to close, I want to suggest to you
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好，說到這裡，我想提醒大家
16:32
that I've been talking a lot about the fathers.
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我已經談論了很多前人的事情。
16:34
And I want to think about the possibilities
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我還想考慮一下
16:37
of what democracy might look like, or might have looked like,
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民主會是的什麼樣子，或者是已經是什麼樣子的可能性,
16:39
if we had more involved the mothers.
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如果我麼可以讓更多的母親參與進來。
16:42
And I want to say something a little bit radical for a feminist,
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我還想說一些關於女權主義者激進的話,
16:45
and that is that I think that there may be
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那就是我認為
16:47
different kinds of insights
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不同的人
16:49
that can come from different kinds of anatomies,
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也許可以帶來不同的的觀察視角,
16:51
particularly when we have people thinking in groups.
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特別是當我們習慣於群體性思維的時候。
16:54
Now for years, because I've been interested in intersex,
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我已經對雙性人感興趣很多年了,
16:56
I've also been interested in sex difference research.
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也對性別差異進行了多年的研究。
16:58
And one of the things that I've been really interested in
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並且我十分感興趣的事情之一是
17:00
is looking at the differences between males and females
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去觀察世界範圍內男性與女性之間
17:03
in terms of the way they think and operate in the world.
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在思考問題和解決問題上的差別。
17:06
And what we know from cross-cultural studies
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我們從跨文化研究中得知
17:09
is that females, on average --
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女性，平均的看--
17:11
not everyone, but on average --
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當然不是每個人，而是平均的看
17:13
are more inclined to be very attentive
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更傾向於留意
17:15
to complex social relations
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複雜的社會關係
17:17
and to taking care of people
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同時更加關心、同情
17:19
who are basically vulnerable within the group.
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人群中相對較脆弱的人。
17:22
And so if we think about that,
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那麼如果我們這麼想,
17:24
we have an interesting situation on our hands.
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我們會發現一個有趣的情況。
17:26
Years ago, when I was in graduate school,
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數年前，當我讀研究生的時候,
17:28
one of my graduate advisers who knew I was interested in feminism --
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我的一位指導教授知道我對女權運動很感興趣--
17:30
I considered myself a feminist, as I still do --
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我自認是女權主義者，當然現在一直是--
17:33
asked a really strange question.
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他問了我一個很怪的問題
17:35
He said, "Tell me what's feminine about feminism."
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他說：「告訴我什麼是女性的女權主義。」
17:38
And I thought, "Well that's the dumbest question I've ever heard.
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我想:「哼! 這是我聽過最愚蠢的的問題。
17:40
Feminism is all about undoing stereotypes about gender,
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女權主義是所有消除陳腐統稱性別觀念的一切活動，
17:43
so there's nothing feminine about feminism."
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因此，女權主義不存有女性的。」
17:46
But the more I thought about his question,
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但是，進一步解讀這個問題，
17:48
the more I thought there might be something feminine about feminism.
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我想的更多的是，女權主義也許存有著一些女性的。
17:51
That is to say, there might be something, on average,
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也就是說，也許有一些，總括來說,
17:54
different about female brains from male brains
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女性的思維不同於男性的部分
17:57
that makes us more attentive
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使得我們對於複雜的社會關係
17:59
to deeply complex social relationships
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更加富有警惕性,
18:02
and more attentive to taking care of the vulnerable.
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並且更加注意關心那些脆弱的人。
18:05
So whereas the fathers were extremely attentive
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但是前人們細心的
18:08
to figuring out how to protect individuals from the state,
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指出如何保護個人不受國家的影響,
18:11
it's possible that if we injected more mothers
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如果我們在這個概念中注入如更多的母性
18:13
into this concept,
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是可能的,
18:15
what we would have is more of a concept
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我們將擁有要遠多於一個概念,
18:17
of, not just how to protect,
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不僅僅是如何保護,
18:19
but how to care for each other.
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而是如何照顧彼此。
18:21
And maybe that's where we need to go in the future,
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也許這就是我們未來要走的路,
18:24
when we take democracy beyond anatomy,
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當我們拋開人種的分別來講民主--
18:26
is to think less about the individual body,
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也就是較少考慮到人的個體,
18:28
in terms of the identity,
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關於人的身份特性，
18:30
and think more about those relationships.
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而是更多考慮人們之間的關係。
18:32
So that as we the people try to create a more perfect union,
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因此，當人們試圖創造一個更加美好的聯合體的時候,
18:35
we're thinking about what we do for each other.
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我們需要考慮的是我們為他人都做過了什麼。
18:38
Thank you.
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謝謝。
18:40
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Alice Dreger - HistorianAlice Dreger studies history and anatomy, and acts as a patient advocate.
Why you should listen
Alice Dreger is a professor of clinical medical humanities and bioethics at the Feinberg School of Medicine of Northwestern University in Chicago. She describes her focus as "social justice work in medicine and science" through research, writing, speaking and advocacy.
She's written several books that study subjects on the edge of norm-challenging bodies, including One of Us: Conjoined Twins and the Future of Normal and Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex and Intersex in the Age of Ethics.
She says: "The question that has motivated many of my projects is this: Why not change minds instead of bodies?"
JOIN OUR LIVE Q&A with Alice Dreger on June 28, 1pm Eastern, in TED Conversations.
Alice Dreger | Speaker | TED.com