TEDxNorthwesternU
Alice Dreger: Is anatomy destiny?
Alice Dreger: Je li anatomija sudbina?
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Alice Dreger radi s ljudima na rubu anatomije, poput sijamskih blizanaca i međuspolaca. Opazila je da često postoji nejasna crta između muškog i ženskog spola, među njihovim ostalim anatomskim razlikama. Što nam donosi veliko pitanje: Zašto dopuštamo da nam naša anatomija određuje sudbinu?
Alice Dreger - Historian
Alice Dreger studies history and anatomy, and acts as a patient advocate. Full bio
Alice Dreger studies history and anatomy, and acts as a patient advocate. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I want you to imagine two couples
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Želim da zamislite dva para
00:18
in the middle of 1979
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sredinom 1979. godine,
00:20
on the exact same day, at the exact same moment,
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točno istog dana u točno istom trenutku,
00:23
each conceiving a baby -- okay?
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kako pokušavaju začeti dijete -- u redu.
00:25
So two couples each conceiving one baby.
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Dakle, dva para i svaki pokušava začeti jedno dijete.
00:27
Now I don't want you to spend too much time imagining the conception,
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Ne želim da provedete previše vremena zamišljajući samo začeće,
00:30
because if you spend all that time imagining that conception,
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jer ako svo to vrijeme provedete zamišljajući to začeće,
00:32
you're not going to listen to me.
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nećete me slušati.
00:34
So just imagine that for a moment.
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Dakle, zamislite to samo na trenutak.
00:36
And in this scenario,
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I u ovom scenariju
00:38
I want to imagine that, in one case,
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želim da zamislite da, u jednom slučaju,
00:40
the sperm is carrying a Y chromosome,
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spermij nosi Y kromosom,
00:42
meeting that X chromosome of the egg.
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koji se sastaje s X kromosomom jajne stanice.
00:44
And in the other case,
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A u drugom slučaju
00:46
the sperm is carrying an X chromosome,
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spermij nosi X kromosom
00:48
meeting the X chromosome of the egg.
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i sastaje se s X kromosomom jajne stanice.
00:50
Both are viable; both take off.
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Oba su sposobna za život; oba uspiju.
00:52
We'll come back to these people later.
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Kasnije ćemo se vratiti na ove ljude.
00:54
So I wear two hats
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Dakle, nosim dva šešira
00:56
in most of what I do.
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u većini onoga što radim.
00:58
As the one hat,
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Kao jedan šešir
01:00
I do history of anatomy.
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nosim povijest anatomije.
01:02
I'm a historian by training,
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Povjesničarka sam po struci,
01:04
and what I study in that case
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i ono što proučavam u tom slučaju
01:06
is the way that people have dealt with anatomy --
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je način na koji se ljudi nose s anatomijom --
01:09
meaning human bodies, animal bodies --
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dakle, ljudskim tijelima, životinjskim tijelima --
01:11
how they dealt with bodily fluids, concepts of bodies;
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kako se nose s tjelesnim tekućinama, pojmom tijela;
01:14
how have they thought about bodies.
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kako razmišljaju o tijelima.
01:16
The other hat that I've worn in my work
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Drugi sam šešir nosila radeći
01:18
is as an activist,
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kao aktivistica,
01:20
as a patient advocate --
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kao odvjetnik pacijenata --
01:22
or, as I sometimes say, as an impatient advocate --
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ili, kako ponekad kažem, kao nestrpljivi odvjetnik --
01:25
for people who are patients of doctors.
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za ljude koji su pacijenti doktora.
01:27
In that case, what I've worked with
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U tom slučaju, radila sam s
01:29
is people who have body types
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ljudima koji imaju tipove tijela
01:31
that challenge social norms.
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koji izazivaju socijalne norme.
01:33
So some of what I've worked on, for example,
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Među ostalim, radila sam, na primjer
01:35
is people who are conjoined twins --
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s ljudima koji su sijamski blizanci,
01:37
two people within one body.
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dvoje ljudi unutar jednog tijela.
01:39
Some of what I've worked on is people who have dwarfism --
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Radila sam i s ljudima s patuljastim rastom --
01:41
so people who are much shorter than typical.
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ljudima koji su mnogo niži no obično.
01:44
And a lot of what I've worked on
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I ono na čemu sam mnogo radila
01:46
is people who have atypical sex --
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su ljudi koji su atipičnog spola --
01:48
so people who don't have the standard male
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dakle, ljudi koji nemaju standarni muški
01:50
or the standard female body types.
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ili standardni ženski tip tijela.
01:52
And as a general term, we can use the term intersex for this.
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I kao općeniti izraz za to možemo upotrijebiti izraz međuspol.
01:56
Intersex comes in a lot of different forms.
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Međuspolnost dolazi u mnogo različitih oblika.
01:58
I'll just give you a few examples
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Dat ću vam nekoliko primjera
02:00
of the types of ways you can have sex
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tipova načina na koje možete dobiti spol
02:02
that isn't standard for male or female.
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koji nije standardan ni za muško ni za žensko.
02:04
So in one instance,
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Na primjer,
02:06
you can have somebody who has an XY chromosomal basis,
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možete imati nekoga tko ima XY kromosomsku bazu
02:09
and that SRY gene on the Y chromosome
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i SRY gen na Y kromosomu
02:12
tells the proto-gonads, which we all have in the fetal life,
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govori pre-gonadama, koje svi imamo u fetalnom životu,
02:14
to become testes.
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da postanu testisi.
02:16
And so in the fetal life the testes are pumping out testosterone.
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Tako da u fetalnom životu testisi ispumpavaju testosteron.
02:19
But because this individual lacks receptors
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Ali zato što ova osoba nema receptore
02:22
to hear that testosterone,
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koji bi trebali čuti taj testosteron,
02:24
the body doesn't react to the testosterone.
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tijelo ne reagira na testosteron.
02:26
And this is a syndrome called androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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I ovo je sindrom zvan sindrom neosjetljivosti na androgene.
02:30
So lots of levels of testosterone, but no reaction to it.
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Dakle, mnogo testosterona, ali nema reakcije na njega.
02:33
As a consequence, the body develops
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Kao posljedica, tijelo se razvija
02:35
more along the female typical path.
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više u smjeru ženskog tijela.
02:37
When the child is born, she looks like a girl.
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Kad se dijete rodi, izgleda kao djevojčica.
02:39
She is a girl. She is raised as a girl.
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Ona jest djevojčica. Odgajana je kao djevojčica.
02:42
And it's often not until she hits puberty
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I često sve dok ne dođe pubertet
02:44
and she's growing and developing breasts,
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i raste i razvija prsa,
02:46
but she's not getting her period,
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ali ne dobiva menstruaciju,
02:48
that somebody figures out something's up here.
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tek tada netko posumnja da se nešto događa.
02:50
And they do some tests and figure out
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I onda rade pretrage i shvate
02:52
that, instead of having ovaries inside and a uterus,
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da, umjesto da se unutra nalaze jajnici i maternica,
02:54
she actually has testes inside, and she has a Y chromosome.
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ona zapravo unutra ima testise i ima Y kromosom.
02:57
Now what's important to understand
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Ono što je važno shvatiti
02:59
is you may think of this person as really being male,
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je to da možete misliti kako je ova osoba zapravo muško
03:01
but they're really not.
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no ipak nije.
03:03
Females, like males,
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Ženski spol, kao i muški,
03:05
have in our bodies something called the adrenal glands.
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u našim tijelima imamo nešto što se zove nadbubrežna žlijezda.
03:07
They're in the back of our body.
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Nalaze se na stražnjoj strani našeg tijela.
03:09
And the adrenal glands make androgens,
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I one proizvode androgene,
03:11
which are a masculinizing hormone.
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koji su maskulinizirajući hormoni.
03:13
Most females like me -- I believe myself to be a typical female --
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Većina žena poput mene -- vjerujem da sam tipično žensko --
03:15
I don't actually know my chromosomal make-up
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Ne znam zapravo svoj kromosomski ustroj,
03:17
but I think I'm probably typical --
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ali mislim da sam vjerojatno tipična --
03:19
most females like me are actually androgen-sensitive.
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većina žena poput mene su zapravo osjetljive na androgene.
03:22
We're making androgen, and we're responding to androgens.
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Proizvodimo androgen i reagiramo na androgene.
03:25
The consequence is that somebody like me
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Posljedica je ta da je netko poput mene
03:27
has actually had a brain exposed to more androgens
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zapravo mozak izložio većoj količini androgena
03:30
than the woman born with testes
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nego žena rođena s testisima
03:32
who has androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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koja ima sindrom osjetljivosti na androgene.
03:34
So sex is really complicated; it's not just that intersex people
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Dakle, spol je zaista kompliciran; ne samo da su međuspolne osobe
03:36
are in the middle of all the sex spectrum --
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u sredini cijelog spolnog spektra --
03:38
in some ways, they can be all over the place.
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na neki način, mogu biti posvuda.
03:40
Another example:
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Još jedan primjer:
03:42
a few years ago I got a call from a man who was 19 years old,
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prije nekoliko godina primila sam poziv od muškarca koji je imao 19 godina,
03:45
who was born a boy, raised a boy,
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rođen je kao dječak, odgojen kao dječak,
03:47
had a girlfriend, had sex with his girlfriend,
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imao je djevojku, imao je spolni odnos sa svojom djevojkom,
03:50
had a life as a guy
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imao je život kao momak
03:52
and had just found out that he had ovaries and a uterus inside.
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i upravo je saznao da unutra ima jajnike i maternicu.
03:55
What he had was an extreme form
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Ono što je on imao je ekstremni oblik
03:57
of a condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
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stanja zvanog kongenitalna adrenalna hiperplazija.
03:59
He had XX chromosomes,
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Imao je XX kromosome,
04:01
and in the womb,
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a u maternici,
04:03
his adrenal glands were in such high gear
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njegove su nadrubrežne žlijezde bile u tako velikoj brzini
04:05
that it created, essentially, a masculine hormonal environment.
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da su u suštini stvorile mušku hormonalnu okolinu.
04:09
And as a consequence, his genitals were masculinzed,
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I kao posljedica, njegove genitalije su maskulinizirane,
04:11
his brain was subject
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njegov mozak je bio izložen
04:13
to the more typical masculine component of hormones.
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tipičnijim muževnijim komponentama hormona.
04:15
And he was born looking like a boy -- nobody suspected anything.
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I rođen je izgledom poput dječaka -- nitko nije ništa posumnjao.
04:18
And it was only when he had reached the age of 19
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I tek kada je došao do 19. godine
04:21
that he began to have enough medical problems
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počeli su njegovi ozbiljniji medicinski problemi,
04:23
actually from menstruating internally,
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od unutrašnje mentruacije
04:25
that doctors figured out that, in fact, he was female internally.
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kada su doktori otkrili da je on unutra zapravo žensko.
04:28
Okay, so just one more quick example
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Dobro, samo još jedan brz primjer
04:30
of a way you can have intersex.
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načina na koji možete dobiti međuspol.
04:32
Some people who have XX chromosomes
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Neki ljudi koji imaju XX kromosome
04:34
develop what are called ovotestis,
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razviju takozvane ovotestise,
04:36
which is when you have ovarian tissue
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a to je kada imate tkivo jajnika
04:38
with testicular tissue wrapped around it.
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omotano tkivom testisa oko njih.
04:40
And we're not exactly sure why that happens.
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I nismo sigurni zašto se to zapravo događa.
04:42
So sex can come in lots of different varieties.
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Spol može doći u mnogo različitih vrsta.
04:45
The reason
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Razlog
04:47
that children with these kinds of bodies --
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zbog kojeg su djeca s ovakvim tipom tijela --
04:49
whether it's dwarfism, or it's conjoined twinning,
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nebitno je li to patuljastost ili sijamski blizanci
04:52
or it's an intersex type --
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ili tip međuspola --
04:54
are often normalized by surgeons
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često korigirana kirurški
04:56
is not because it actually leaves them better off
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nije zato što im to zapravo osigurava bolje
04:58
in terms of physical health.
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psihičko zdravlje.
05:00
In many cases, people are actually perfectly healthy.
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U mnogo slučajeva, ljudi su zapravo potpuno zdravi.
05:03
The reason they're often subject to various kinds of surgeries
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Razlog zbog kojeg su često podvrgnuti različitim operacijama
05:06
is because they threaten our social categories.
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je taj što prijete našim socijalnim kategorijama.
05:09
Or system has been based typically on the idea
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Naš sistem je tipično baziran na ideji
05:12
that a particular kind of anatomy comes with a particular identity.
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da specifična vrsta anatomije dolazi sa specifičnim identitetom.
05:15
So we have the concept that what it means to be a woman
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Pa imamo koncept da je ono što znači biti žensko,
05:17
is to have a female identity;
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imati ženski identitet;
05:19
what it means to be a black person is, allegedly,
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ono što znači biti crna osoba, je navodno,
05:21
is to have an African anatomy
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imati Afričku anatomiju
05:24
in terms of your history.
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u uvjetima naše povijesti.
05:26
And so we have this terribly simplistic idea.
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I zato imamo ovu grozno jednostavnu ideju.
05:29
And when we're faced with a body
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I kada smo suočeni s tijelom
05:31
that actually presents us something quite different,
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koje nam zapravo predstavlja nešto potpuno drugačije,
05:34
it startles us in terms of those categorizations.
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prepadnemo se toga pod uvjetima ovih kategorizacija.
05:37
So we have a lot of very romantic ideas in our culture
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Dakle, imamo mnogo veoma romantičnih ideja u našoj kulturi
05:39
about individualism.
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o individualnosti.
05:41
And our nation's really founded on a very romantic concept of individualism.
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I naš narod je zaista zasnovan na veoma romantičnom konceptu individualizma.
05:44
Well you can imagine how startling then it is
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Možete zamisliti kako je zastrašujuće
05:47
when you have children that are born
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kada imate djecu koja su rođena
05:49
who are two people inside of one body.
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kao dvoje ljudi unutar jednog tijela.
05:51
Where I ran into the most heat from this most recently
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Naletjela sam na veliku paniku što se toga tiče nedavno,
05:55
was last year the South African runner, Caster Semenya,
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kada je prošle godine južnoafrička trkačica Caster Semenya
05:58
had her sex called into question at the International Games in Berlin.
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dovela u pitanje svoj spol na Međunarodnim igrama u Berlinu.
06:01
I had a lot of journalists calling me, asking me,
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Mnogo novinara me zvalo pitajući me,
06:04
"Which is the test they're going to run
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“Koji ćete test koristiti
06:06
that will tell us whether or not
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kako bi nam rekli je li
06:08
Caster Semenya is male or female?"
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Caster Semenya muško ili žensko?”
06:10
And I had to explain to the journalists there isn't such a test.
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I morala sam objasniti novinarima da ne postoji takav test.
06:13
In fact, we now know
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Zapravo, znamo
06:15
that sex is complicated enough
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da je spol dovoljno kompliciran
06:17
that we have to admit
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da moramo priznati
06:19
nature doesn't draw the line for us between male and female,
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da priroda ne povlači liniju za nas između muškog i ženskog
06:22
or between male and intersex and female and intersex;
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ili između muškog i međuspola i ženskog i međuspola;
06:25
we actually draw that line on nature.
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mi zapravo povlačimo tu liniju na prirodu.
06:28
So what we have is a sort of situation
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Dakle, ono što imamo je vrsta situacije
06:30
where the farther our science goes,
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u kojoj što dalje ide naša znanost,
06:32
the more we have to admit to ourselves
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to više moramo priznati sebi samima
06:34
that these categories
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da su ove kategorije
06:36
that we thought of as stable anatomical categories
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koje smo smatrali stabilnim anatomskim kategorijama
06:38
that mapped very simply
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koje smo veoma jednostavno smjestili
06:40
to stable identity categories
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u stabilne kategorije identiteta
06:42
are a lot more fuzzy than we thought.
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mnogo složenije no što smo mislili.
06:44
And it's not just in terms of sex.
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I ne samo u smislu spola.
06:46
It's also in terms of race,
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Već i u smislu rase,
06:48
which turns out to be vastly more complicated
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za koju se čini da je mnogo kompliciranija
06:50
than our terminology has allowed.
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nego što to naša terminologija dopušta.
06:52
As we look, we get into all sorts of uncomfortable areas.
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Kada pogledamo, dolazimo do raznih vrsta neugodnih područja.
06:55
We look, for example, about the fact
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Pogledamo, na primjer, činjenicu
06:57
that we share at least 95 percent of our DNA
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da dijelimo najmanje 95 posto našeg DNK
06:59
with chimpanzees.
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sa čimpanzama.
07:01
What are we to make of the fact
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Što napraviti sa činjenicom
07:03
that we differ from them only really by a few nucleotides?
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da smo različiti od njih samo za par nukleotida?
07:06
And as we get farther and farther with our science,
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I što dalje i dalje idemo sa znanošću,
07:09
we get more and more into a discomforted zone
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ulazimo sve više i više u neugodnu zonu
07:11
where we have to acknowledge
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gdje moramo potvrditi
07:13
that the simplistic categories we've had
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da su jednostavne kategorije koje smo imali
07:15
are probably overly simplistic.
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vjerojatno previše jednostavne.
07:17
So we're seeing this
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Ovo vidimo
07:19
in all sorts of places in human life.
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na različitim mjestima u ljudskom životu.
07:21
One of the places we're seeing it, for example,
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Jedno od mjesta na kojem to vidimo su, na primjer,
07:23
in our culture today, in the United States today,
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u našoj današnjoj kulturi, danas u Sjedinjenim Američkim Državama,
07:25
is battles over the beginning of life and the end of life.
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bitke oko početka života i završetka života.
07:28
We have difficult conversations
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Imamo teške razgovore
07:30
about at what point we decide a body becomes a human,
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o tome u kojem trenutku odlučujemo da tijelo postaje čovjek,
07:33
such that it has a different right than a fetal life.
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da bi imalo drugačije pravo nego u fetalnom životu.
07:36
We have very difficult conversations nowadays --
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Imamo teške razgovore u današnje vrijeme --
07:38
probably not out in the open as much as within medicine --
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vjerojatno ne toliko javno koliko unutar medicine --
07:41
about the question of when somebody's dead.
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o pitanju kada je netko mrtav.
07:43
In the past, our ancestors never had to struggle so much
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U prošlosti, naši se pretci nikada nisu morali toliko mučiti
07:45
with this question of when somebody was dead.
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s pitanjem kada je netko umro.
07:47
At most, they'd stick a feather on somebody's nose,
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Najviše što bi napravili je to da bi gurnuli pero pod nečiji nos
07:49
and if it twitched, they didn't bury them yet.
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i ako bi zatitralo, ne bi ga još pokopali.
07:51
If it stopped twitching, you bury them.
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Ako bi prestalo titrati, pokopali bi ga.
07:54
But today, we have a situation
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Ali danas, imamo situaciju
07:56
where we want to take vital organs out of beings
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kada želimo uzeti vitalne organe iz bića
07:58
and give them to other beings.
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i dati ih drugim bićima.
08:00
And as a consequence,
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I za posljedicu,
08:02
we're stuck with having to struggle with this really difficult question
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zapeli smo s time da se moramo boriti s veoma teškim pitanjem
08:04
about who's dead,
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o tome tko je mrtav.
08:06
and this leads us to a really difficult situation
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I to nas dovodi do veoma teške situacije
08:08
where we don't have such simple categories as we've had before.
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u kojoj nemamo tako jednostavne kategorije kao što smo imali prije.
08:11
Now you might think that all this breaking-down of categories
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Mogli biste pomisliti kako bi ovo razbijanje kategorija
08:14
would make somebody like me really happy.
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moglo veoma usrećiti nekog poput mene.
08:16
I'm a political progressive, I defend people with unusual bodies,
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Ja sam politički napredna, branim ljude s neobičnim tijelima,
08:19
but I have to admit to you that it makes me nervous.
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ali vam moram priznati da me to čini nervoznom.
08:21
Understanding that these categories
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Razumijevanje toga da su ove kategorije
08:23
are really much more unstable than we thought makes me tense.
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mnogo nestabilnije no što smo mislili čini me napetom.
08:26
And it makes me tense
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I čini me napetom
08:28
from the point of view of thinking about democracy.
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s točke gledišta razmišljanja o demokraciji.
08:30
So in order to tell you about that tension,
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Kako bih vam rekla nešto o toj napetosti,
08:32
I have to first admit to you that I'm a huge fan of the Founding Fathers.
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prvo vam moram priznati da sam veliki fan Utemeljitelja.
08:35
I know they were racists, I know they were sexist,
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Znam da su bili rasisti, znam da su bili seksisti,
08:37
but they were great.
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ali su bili veliki.
08:39
I mean, they were so brave and so bold
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Mislim, bili su tako hrabri i odvažni
08:42
and so radical in what they did
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i radikalni u onome što su radili
08:45
that I find myself watching that cheesy musical "1776" every few years,
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da se znam zateći kako gledam onaj otrcan mjuzikl “1776” svakih nekoliko godina
08:48
and it's not because of the music, which is totally forgettable.
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i to ne zbog glazbe, koja je potpuno zaboravna.
08:51
It's because of what happened in 1776
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Već zbog onoga što se dogodilo 1776.
08:53
with the Founding Fathers.
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s Utemeljiteljima.
08:55
The Founding Fathers were, for my point of view,
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Utemeljitelji su bili, s moje točke gledišta,
08:57
the original anatomical activists,
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originalni anatomski aktivisti
08:59
and this is why.
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i evo zašto.
09:01
What they rejected was an anatomical concept
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Ono što su odbili bio je anatomski koncept
09:04
and replaced it with another one
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i zamijenili ga s drugim
09:06
that was radical and beautiful and held us for 200 years.
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koji je bio radikalan i lijep i održao se 200 godina.
09:09
So as you all recall,
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Pa stoga, kako se svi sjećate,
09:11
what our Founding Fathers were rejecting was a concept of monarchy,
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ono što su naši Utemeljitelji odbili bio je koncept monarhije.
09:14
and the monarchy was basically based
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A monarhija je zapravo osnovana
09:16
on a very simplistic concept of anatomy.
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na veoma jednostavnom konceptu anatomije.
09:18
The monarchs of the old world
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Monarsi starog svijeta
09:20
didn't have a concept of DNA,
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nisu imali koncept DNK,
09:22
but they did have a concept of birthright.
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ali su imali koncept prava stečenih rođenjem.
09:24
They had a concept of blue blood.
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Imali su koncept plave krvi.
09:26
They had the idea that the people who would be in political power
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Imali su ideju da bi ljudi koji bi imali političku vlast
09:29
should be in political power
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morali biti na političkoj vlasti
09:31
because of the blood being passed down
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zato što se plava krv prenosi
09:33
from grandfather to father to son and so forth.
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s djeda na oca do sina i tako dalje.
09:36
The Founding Fathers rejected that idea,
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Utemeljitelji su odbili tu ideju
09:38
and they replaced it with a new anatomical concept,
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i zamijenili je novim anatomskim konceptom,
09:41
and that concept
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a taj je
09:43
was all men are created equal.
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da su svi ljudi stvoreni jednaki.
09:45
They leveled that playing field
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Izravnali su to igralište
09:47
and decided the anatomy that mattered
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i odlučili da je anatomija koja je važna
09:49
was the commonality of anatomy,
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istovjetnost anatomije,
09:51
not the difference in anatomy,
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a ne različitosti u anatomiji.
09:53
and that was a really radical thing to do.
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I to je bila veoma radikalna stvar za učiniti.
09:56
Now they were doing it in part
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Radili su to dijelom
09:58
because they were part of an Enlightenment system
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zato što su bili dio sustava prosvjetiteljstva
10:00
where two things were growing up together.
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u kojem su dvije stvari rasle zajedno.
10:02
And that was democracy growing up,
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Tu je demokracija odrastala,
10:04
but it was also science growing up at the same time.
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ali i znanost u isto vrijeme.
10:07
And it's really clear, if you look at the history of the Founding Fathers,
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I veoma je jasno, ako pogledate povijest Utemeljitelja,
10:09
a lot of them were very interested in science,
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mnogo njih je bilo veoma zainteresirano za znanost,
10:11
and they were interested in a concept
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i bili su zainteresirani za koncept
10:13
of a naturalistic world.
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naturalističkog svijeta.
10:15
They were moving away from supernatural explanations,
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Udaljavali su se od nadprirodnih objašnjenja
10:18
and they were rejecting things like a supernatural concept of power,
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i odbijali stvari poput nadprirodnog koncepta moći
10:21
where it transmitted
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koje je prenešeno
10:23
because of a very vague concept of birthright.
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zbog veoma nejasnog koncepta prava prilikom rođenja.
10:26
They were moving towards a naturalistic concept.
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Kretali su prema naturalističkom konceptu.
10:28
And if you look, for example, in the Declaration of Independence,
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I ako pogledate, na primjer, Deklaraciju neovisnosti,
10:31
they talk about nature and nature's God.
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govore o prirodi i prirodnom Bogu.
10:34
They don't talk about God and God's nature.
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Ne govore o Bogu i Božjoj prirodi.
10:36
They're talking about the power of nature
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Govore o snazi prirode
10:38
to tell us who we are.
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da nam kaže tko smo.
10:40
So as part of that,
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I kao dio toga,
10:42
they were coming to us with a concept
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došli su nam s konceptom
10:44
that was about anatomical commonality.
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koji je bio o anatomskom zajedništvu.
10:46
And in doing so, they were really setting up in a beautiful way
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I radeći to, oni su zapravo postavili lijep pravac
10:49
the Civil Rights movement of the future.
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pokreta Ljudskih Prava budućnosti.
10:51
They didn't think of it that way, but they did it for us, and it was great.
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Nisu razmišljali o tome na taj način, ali su to učinili za nas i bilo je odlično.
10:54
So what happened years afterward?
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Pa što se dogodilo godinama nakon toga?
10:56
What happened was women, for example,
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Dogodilo se da su žene, na primjer,
10:58
who wanted the right to vote,
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koje su željele pravo glasa,
11:00
took the Founding Fathers' concept
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uzele koncept Utemeljitelja
11:02
of anatomical commonality being more important
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o zajedništvu anatomije važnijim
11:04
than anatomical difference
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od anatomskih razlika
11:06
and said, "The fact that we have a uterus and ovaries
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i rekle, "Činjenica da imamo maternicu i jajnike
11:08
is not significant enough in terms of a difference
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nije dovoljno značajna u smislu razlike
11:11
to mean that we shouldn't have the right to vote,
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toliko da ne bismo trebali imali pravo glasa,
11:13
the right to full citizenship,
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pravo punog državljanstva,
11:15
the right to own property, etc., etc."
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prava na vlastiti posjed, itd, itd.”
11:17
And women successfully argued that.
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I žene su to uspješno argumentirale.
11:19
Next came the successful Civil Rights movement,
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Sljedeći je stigao uspješan pokret Ljudskih prava
11:22
where we found people like Sojourner Truth
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gdje smo našli ljude poput Sjourner Truth
11:24
talking about, "Ain't I a woman?"
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koji pričaju o tome, “Nisam li ja žena?”
11:26
We find men
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Nalazimo muškarce
11:28
on the marching lines of the Civil Rights movement
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u kolonama pokreta Ljudskih prava
11:30
saying, "I am a man."
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kako govore, “Ja sam muškarac.”
11:32
Again, people of color
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Opet, ljudi s bojom
11:34
appealing to a commonality of anatomy over a difference of anatomy,
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apeliraju na jednakost anatomije iznad različitosti anatomije,
11:36
again, successfully.
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opet, uspješno.
11:38
We see the same thing with the disability rights movement.
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Vidimo istu stvar s pokretom prava invalida.
11:42
The problem is, of course,
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Problem je, naravno,
11:44
that, as we begin to look at all that commonality,
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da kako počinjemo gledati na tu istovjetnost,
11:46
we have to begin to question
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moramo se početi pitati
11:48
why we maintain certain divisions.
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zašto održavamo određenu podjelu.
11:50
Now mind you, I want to maintain some divisions,
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Sada vas molim, željela bih održati neke podjele,
11:52
anatomically, in our culture.
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anatomske, u našoj kulturi.
11:54
For example, I don't want
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Na primjer, ne želim
11:56
to give a fish the same rights as a human.
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dati ribi ista prava kao i čovjeku.
11:58
I don't want to say we give up entirely on anatomy.
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Ne želim reći da potpuno odustanemo od anatomije.
12:00
I don't want to say five-year-olds
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Ne želim reći da bi petogodišnjacima
12:02
should be allowed to consent to sex or consent to marry.
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trebalo biti dopušteno pristati na spolni odnos ili pristati na stupanje u brak.
12:05
So there are some anatomical divisions
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Ima nekih anatomskih podjela
12:07
that make sense to me and that I think we should retain.
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koje za mene imaju smisla i mislim da bismo ih trebali zadržati.
12:10
But the challenge is trying to figure out which ones they are
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Ali izazov je u pokušaju da shvatimo koji su to
12:13
and why do we retain them and do they have meaning.
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i zašto ih zadržati i imaju li smisla.
12:16
So let's go back to those two beings
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Dakle, vratimo se onim dvama bićima
12:18
conceived at the beginning of this talk.
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koja su začeta na početku ovog govora.
12:20
We have two beings, both conceived
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Imamo dva bića, oba začeta
12:22
in the middle of 1979 on the exact same day.
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sredinom 1979. na točno isti dan.
12:25
Let's imagine one of them, Mary,
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Zamislimo jedno od njih, Mary,
12:27
is born three months prematurely,
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rođena tri mjeseca prerano,
12:29
so she's born on June 1, 1980.
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dakle rođena je 1. lipnja 1980.
12:31
Henry, by contrast, is born at term,
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Henry je za razliku, rođen u terminu,
12:33
so he's born on March 1, 1980.
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pa je rođen 1. ožujka 1980.
12:36
Simply by virtue of the fact
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Jednostavno, po svojstvu činjenice
12:38
that Mary was born prematurely three months,
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da je Mary rođena tri mjeseca prerano,
12:40
she comes into all sorts of rights
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njoj pripadaju različita prava
12:42
three months earlier than Henry does --
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tri mjeseca ranije no Henryju --
12:45
the right to consent to sex,
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pravo na pristanak na spolni odnos,
12:47
the right to vote, the right to drink.
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pravo na glasovanje, pravo na alkohol.
12:49
Henry has to wait for all of that,
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Henry sve to mora čekati,
12:51
not because he's actually any different in age, biologically,
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ne zato što je zapravo ikako drugačiji po godinama, biološki,
12:54
except in terms of when he was born.
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osim po uvjetima u kojima je rođen.
12:56
We find other kinds of weirdness in terms of what their rights are.
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Pronalazimo druge vrste neuobičajenosti u smislu njihovih prava.
12:59
Henry, by virtue of being assumed to be male --
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Henry, po svojstvu da se pretpostavlja da je muško --
13:02
although I haven't told you that he's the XY one --
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iako vam nisam rekla da je on XY --
13:04
by virtue of being assumed to be male
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po svojstvu što je pretpostavljeno da je muško
13:07
is now liable to be drafted,
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može biti unovačen,
13:09
which Mary does not need to worry about.
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o čemu se Mary ne mora brinuti.
13:11
Mary, meanwhile, cannot in all the states
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Mary, pak, ne može u svim državama
13:13
have the same right that Henry has in all the states,
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imati ista prava koja Henry ima u svim državama,
13:15
namely, the right to marry.
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recimo pravo na udaju.
13:17
Henry can marry in every state a woman,
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Henry u bilo kojoj državi može oženiti djevojku,
13:20
but Mary can only marry today in a few states a woman.
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no Mary se danas može vjenčati sa ženom u samo nekoliko država.
13:24
So we have these anatomical categories that persist
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Dakle, imamo ove anatomske kategorije koje perzistiraju
13:27
that are in many ways problematic and questionable.
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iako su na mnogo načina problematične i upitne.
13:30
And the question to me becomes:
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I pitanje za mene postaje:
13:32
What do we do,
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Što da radimo,
13:34
as our science gets to be so good
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dok naša znanost postaje toliko dobra
13:36
in looking at anatomy,
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u proučavanju anatomije,
13:38
that we reach the point where we have to admit
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da dolazimo do točke u kojoj moramo priznati
13:41
that a democracy that's been based on anatomy
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da bi se demokracija bazirana na anatomiji
13:44
might start falling apart?
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mogla raspasti?
13:46
I don't want to give up the science,
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Ne želim odustati od znanosti,
13:48
but at the same time it kind of feels sometimes
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ali u isto se vrijeme nekako čini da nas ponekad
13:50
like the science is coming out from under us.
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znanost neugodno iznenađuje.
13:52
So where do we go?
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Pa kamo idemo?
13:54
It seems like what happens in our culture
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Čini se da je to što se događa u našoj kulturi
13:56
is a sort of pragmatic attitude:
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vrsta pragmatičnog stava:
13:58
"Well, we have to draw the line somewhere,
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“Pa, moramo povući liniju negdje,
14:00
so we will draw the line somewhere."
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pa ćemo je i povući negdje.”
14:02
But a lot of people get stuck in a very strange position.
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Ali mnogo ljudi zapne u veoma čudnoj poziciji.
14:04
So for example,
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Pa na primjer,
14:06
Texas has at one point decided
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Texas je u jednom trenutku odlučio
14:08
that what it means to marry a man
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da se vjenčati za muškarca možete
14:10
is to mean that you don't have a Y chromosome,
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ako nemate Y kromosom,
14:12
and what it means to marry a woman means you do have a Y chromosome.
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a da se vjenčati za ženu možete ako imate Y kromosom.
14:14
Now in practice they don't actually test people for their chromosomes.
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U praksi zapravo ne testiraju ljude i njihove kromosome.
14:17
But this is also very bizarre,
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Ali to je također veoma bizarno,
14:19
because of the story I told you at the beginning
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zbog priče koju sam vam ispričala na početku
14:21
about androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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o sindromu neosjetljivosti na androgene.
14:23
If we look at one of the founding fathers of modern democracy,
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Ako pogledamo jednog utemeljitelja moderne demokracije,
14:26
Dr. Martin Luther King,
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dr. Martina Luthera Kinga,
14:28
he offers us something of a solution in his "I have a dream" speech.
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on nam nudi dio rješenja u svom govoru “Imam san.”
14:31
He says we should judge people "based not on the color of their skin,
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Govori da ne bismo smjeli suditi ljudima “ovisno o boji njihove kože,
14:34
but on the content of their character,"
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već o sadržaju njihovih karaktera”,
14:36
moving beyond anatomy.
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krećući se iznad anatomije.
14:38
And I want to say, "Yeah, that sounds like a really good idea."
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I želim reći, “Da, to zvuči kao veoma dobra ideja.”
14:41
But in practice, how do you do it?
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Ali kako ćete to učiniti u praksi?
14:43
How do you judge people based on the content of character?
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Kako suditi ljudima bazirajući se na sadržaju karaktera?
14:46
I also want to point out
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Također želim istaknuti
14:48
that I'm not sure that is how we should distribute rights in terms of humans,
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da nisam sigurna kako bismo trebali raspodijeliti prava u smislu ljudi,
14:51
because, I have to admit, that there are some golden retrievers I know
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jer, moram priznati da postoje zlatni retriveri koje znam
14:54
that are probably more deserving of social services
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i koji vjerojatno više zaslužuju socijalne usluge
14:56
than some humans I know.
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od nekih ljudi koje poznajem.
14:58
I also want to say there are probably also some yellow Labradors that I know
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Također želim reći da vjerojatno postoje neki zlatni labradori koje znam
15:01
that are more capable of informed, intelligent, mature decisions
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koji su sposobniji u informiranim, inteligentnim i zrelim odlukama
15:04
about sexual relations than some 40-year-olds that I know.
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o seksualnim odnosima od nekih četrdesetodišnjaka koje poznajem.
15:07
So how do we operationalize
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Pa kako operacionaliziramo
15:10
the question of content of character?
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pitanje sadržaja karaktera?
15:12
It turns out to be really difficult.
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Ispada da je to veoma teško.
15:14
And part of me also wonders,
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I dio mene se također pita
15:16
what if content of character
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što ako sadržaj karaktera
15:18
turns out to be something that's scannable in the future --
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ispadne kao nešto što se može skenirati u budućnosti --
15:21
able to be seen with an fMRI?
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što će se moći vidjeti s fMRI?
15:23
Do we really want to go there?
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Želimo li zaista doći do toga?
15:25
I'm not sure where we go.
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Nisam sigurna kamo idemo.
15:27
What I do know is that it seems to be really important
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Ono što znam je da se čini veoma važnim
15:29
to think about the idea of the United States being in the lead
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razmišljati o ideji da je SAD vodeći
15:32
of thinking about this issue of democracy.
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u razmišljanju o ovom ishodu demokracije.
15:34
We've done a really good job struggling with democracy,
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Napravili smo veoma dobar posao boreći se s demokracijom,
15:37
and I think we would do a good job in the future.
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i mislim da bismo napravili dobar posao u budućnosti.
15:39
We don't have a situation that Iran has, for example,
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Nemamo situaciju koju Iran ima gdje, na primjer,
15:42
where a man who's sexually attracted to other men
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muškarca kojega seksualno privlače drugi muškarci
15:44
is liable to be murdered,
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mogu ubiti
15:46
unless he's willing to submit to a sex change,
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osim ako nije voljan pristati na promjenu spola,
15:48
in which case he's allowed to live.
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te će mu u tom slučaju biti dozvoljeno da živi.
15:50
We don't have that kind of situation.
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Nemamo takvu vrstu situacije.
15:52
I'm glad to say we don't have the kind of situation with --
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Drago mi je što mogu reći da nemamo vrstu situacije s --
15:55
a surgeon I talked to a few years ago
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kirurgom s kojim sam pričala prije nekoliko godina
15:57
who had brought over a set of conjoined twins
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koji je doveo sijamske blizance,
16:00
in order to separate them, partly to make a name for himself.
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da bi ih razdvojio, djelomično zato da si poveća ugled.
16:02
But when I was on the phone with him,
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Ali kada sam telefonski razgovarala s njim,
16:04
asking why he was going to do this surgery --
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pitajući ga zašto će učiniti ovu operaciju --
16:06
this was a very high-risk surgery --
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a ovo je veoma rizična operacija --
16:08
his answer was that, in this other nation,
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njegov odgovor na to je bio, da bi u toj drugoj zemlji,
16:10
these children were going to be treated very badly, and so he had to do this.
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ova djeca bila tretirana veoma loše, pa je to morao učiniti.
16:13
My response to him was, "Well, have you considered political asylum
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Moj odgovor njemu je bio, “Pa, jeste li razmotrili politički azil
16:16
instead of a separation surgery?"
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umjesto operacije razdvajanja?”
16:19
The United States has offered tremendous possibility
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Sjedinjene su Američke Države ponudile ogromnu mogućnost
16:21
for allowing people to be the way they are,
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dozvoljavajući ljudima da budu kakvi jesu,
16:24
without having them have to be changed for the sake of the state.
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bez da se moraju promijeniti zbog koristi države.
16:27
So I think we have to be in the lead.
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Zato mislim da moramo biti u prednosti.
16:29
Well, just to close, I want to suggest to you
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Kako bih završila, želim vam predložiti
16:32
that I've been talking a lot about the fathers.
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kako sam mnogo razgovarala o Utemeljiteljima, očevima domovine.
16:34
And I want to think about the possibilities
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I želim razmišljati o mogućnostima
16:37
of what democracy might look like, or might have looked like,
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kako bi demokracija mogla izgledati ili je mogla izgledati
16:39
if we had more involved the mothers.
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da smo više uključili majke.
16:42
And I want to say something a little bit radical for a feminist,
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I želim reći nešto pomalo radikalno za feministicu,
16:45
and that is that I think that there may be
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a to je da mislim da bi moglo biti
16:47
different kinds of insights
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raznih vrsta spoznaja
16:49
that can come from different kinds of anatomies,
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koje mogu doći iz raznih vrsta anatomija,
16:51
particularly when we have people thinking in groups.
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posebno kada imamo ljude koji razmišljaju u grupama.
16:54
Now for years, because I've been interested in intersex,
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Sada, već godinama, budući da sam zainteresirana u međuspol,
16:56
I've also been interested in sex difference research.
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također sam zainteresirana i u istraživanje spolnih razlika.
16:58
And one of the things that I've been really interested in
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I jedna od stvari za koje sam zaista zainteresirana
17:00
is looking at the differences between males and females
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je traženje razlika između muškaraca i žena
17:03
in terms of the way they think and operate in the world.
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u smislu načina na koji razmišljaju i funkcioniraju u svijetu.
17:06
And what we know from cross-cultural studies
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I ono što znamo iz multikulturalnih studija
17:09
is that females, on average --
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je da su žene, u prosjeku --
17:11
not everyone, but on average --
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ne sve, ali u prosjeku --
17:13
are more inclined to be very attentive
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sklonije da budu vrlo pažljive
17:15
to complex social relations
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prema kompleksim socijalnim odnosima
17:17
and to taking care of people
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i zbrinjavanju ljudi
17:19
who are basically vulnerable within the group.
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koji su u principu najranjiviji u grupi.
17:22
And so if we think about that,
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I ako razmišljamo o tome,
17:24
we have an interesting situation on our hands.
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imamo zanimljivu situaciju u rukama.
17:26
Years ago, when I was in graduate school,
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Prije mnogo godina, kada sam bila na diplomskom studiju,
17:28
one of my graduate advisers who knew I was interested in feminism --
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jedan me od mojih diplomskih savjetnika koji je znao da sam zainteresirana za feminizam --
17:30
I considered myself a feminist, as I still do --
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smatrala sam sebe feministkinjom, kao što još uvijek smatram --
17:33
asked a really strange question.
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pitao veoma čudno pitanje.
17:35
He said, "Tell me what's feminine about feminism."
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Rekao je, “Reci mi što je ženstveno u feminizmu?”
17:38
And I thought, "Well that's the dumbest question I've ever heard.
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I pomislila sam, “Pa to je najgluplje pitanje koje sam ikada čula.
17:40
Feminism is all about undoing stereotypes about gender,
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Feminizam je sav o poništavanju stereotipova o spolu,
17:43
so there's nothing feminine about feminism."
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pa tu nema ništa ženstveno u feminizmu.”
17:46
But the more I thought about his question,
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Ali što sam više razmišljala o tom pitanju,
17:48
the more I thought there might be something feminine about feminism.
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više sam mislila da možda postoji nešto ženstveno u feminizmu.
17:51
That is to say, there might be something, on average,
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Hoću reći, možda postoji nešto, u prosjeku,
17:54
different about female brains from male brains
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drugačije u ženskim mozgovima od muških mozgova
17:57
that makes us more attentive
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što nas čini pažljivijima
17:59
to deeply complex social relationships
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prema dubokom kompleksu socijalnih odnosa
18:02
and more attentive to taking care of the vulnerable.
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i pažljivijima prema čuvanju ranjivih.
18:05
So whereas the fathers were extremely attentive
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Pa s obzirom da su očevi bili veoma pažljivi
18:08
to figuring out how to protect individuals from the state,
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prilikom smišljavanja kako zaštiti pojedince od države,
18:11
it's possible that if we injected more mothers
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moguće je da kad bismo uključili više majki
18:13
into this concept,
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u taj koncept,
18:15
what we would have is more of a concept
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imali bismo koncept,
18:17
of, not just how to protect,
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ne samo kako zaštititi,
18:19
but how to care for each other.
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već kako brinuti jedni za druge.
18:21
And maybe that's where we need to go in the future,
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I možda je to ono kamo trebamo poći u budućnosti,
18:24
when we take democracy beyond anatomy,
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kada stavimo demokraciju iznad anatomije --
18:26
is to think less about the individual body,
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moramo razmišljati manje o individualnom tijelu,
18:28
in terms of the identity,
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u smislu identiteta,
18:30
and think more about those relationships.
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i više razmišljati o odnosima.
18:32
So that as we the people try to create a more perfect union,
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Tako da mi kao ljudi pokušamo stvoriti savršeniju zajednicu,
18:35
we're thinking about what we do for each other.
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razmišljajući što radimo jedni za druge.
18:38
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
18:40
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Alice Dreger - HistorianAlice Dreger studies history and anatomy, and acts as a patient advocate.
Why you should listen
Alice Dreger is a professor of clinical medical humanities and bioethics at the Feinberg School of Medicine of Northwestern University in Chicago. She describes her focus as "social justice work in medicine and science" through research, writing, speaking and advocacy.
She's written several books that study subjects on the edge of norm-challenging bodies, including One of Us: Conjoined Twins and the Future of Normal and Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex and Intersex in the Age of Ethics.
She says: "The question that has motivated many of my projects is this: Why not change minds instead of bodies?"
JOIN OUR LIVE Q&A with Alice Dreger on June 28, 1pm Eastern, in TED Conversations.
Alice Dreger | Speaker | TED.com