ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Yanis Varoufakis - Economist and professor
Yanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.

Why you should listen

Yanis Varoufakis describes himself as a "libertarian Marxist," although, he says, "It is not something that I volunteer to talk about much, because the very mention of Marx switches audiences off." He teaches economic theory at the University of Athens, where he challenges mainstream notions -- arguing that after the financial crash of 2008 we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.

He became widely known in the first half of 2015 when, as Minister of Finance of the newly formed Greek government, he was a leading, outspoken and much-discussed figure in the renegotiations of Greece's debt.

In May 2017, Varoufakis released Adults in The Room: My Battle With Europe’s Deep Establishment, a personal account of Europe's hidden agenda and an urgent wake-up call to renew European democracy.

More profile about the speaker
Yanis Varoufakis | Speaker | TED.com
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Yanis Varoufakis: Capitalism will eat democracy -- unless we speak up

Yanis Varoufakis: O capitalismo comerá a democracia... a non ser que falemos claro

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¿Preguntácheste algunha vez por que os políticos xa non son como adoitaban ser?, ¿por qué os gobernos parecen incapaces de resolver problemas reais? O economista Yanis Varoufakis, ex-ministro de Finanzas de Grecia, di que é porque hoxe pódese estar na política sen estar no poder, porque o poder real pertence aos que controlan a economía. Cre que os mega ricos e as grandes empresas están canibalizando a esfera política, provocando crises financeiras. Nesta charla, escoita o seu soño dun mundo en que o capital e a man de obra xa non loitan uns contra outros, "un que sexa ao mesmo tempo liberal, marxista e keynesiano".
- Economist and professor
Yanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:13
Democracy.
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Democracia
00:14
In the West,
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En Occidente,
00:16
we make a colossal mistake
taking it for granted.
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cometemos un grande erro
ao dala por feito.
00:20
We see democracy
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Vemos a democracia
00:21
not as the most fragile
of flowers that it really is,
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non como a máis fráxil das flores,
o que é en realidade,
00:26
but we see it as part
of our society's furniture.
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senón como parte do mobiliario
da nosa sociedade.
00:29
We tend to think of it
as an intransigent given.
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Tendemos a pensar nela
como un feito definitivo.
00:34
We mistakenly believe that capitalism
begets inevitably democracy.
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Pensamos, de forma errada,
que o capitalismo xera sempre democracia.
00:39
It doesn't.
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Mais non o fai.
00:41
Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew
and his great imitators in Beijing
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Lee Kuan Yew, de Singapur,
e os seus grandes imitadores en Beijing,
00:45
have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt
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demostraron, máis alá
de calquera dúbida,
00:48
that it is perfectly possible
to have a flourishing capitalism,
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que é perfectamente posible
ter un capitalismo vizoso,
00:52
spectacular growth,
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de crecemento espectacular,
00:54
while politics remains democracy-free.
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mentres a política permanece
exenta de democracia.
00:58
Indeed, democracy is receding
in our neck of the woods,
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De feito, a democracia está
en regresión no noso terreo,
01:02
here in Europe.
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aquí en Europa.
01:04
Earlier this year,
while I was representing Greece --
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A comezos deste ano, cando
estaba representando a Grecia
01:07
the newly elected Greek government --
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-no goberno grego que acababa
de ser elixido-
01:10
in the Eurogroup as its Finance Minister,
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no Eurogrupo, como
ministro de Finanzas,
01:12
I was told in no uncertain terms
that our nation's democratic process --
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dixéronme claramente que o
proceso democrático no noso país
01:17
our elections --
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-as nosas eleccións-
01:19
could not be allowed to interfere
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non podían interferir
coas políticas económicas
01:21
with economic policies
that were being implemented in Greece.
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que se estaban desenvolvendo
en Grecia.
01:25
At that moment,
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Naquel momento,
01:26
I felt that there could be no greater
vindication of Lee Kuan Yew,
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sentín que non podía haber
maior reivindicación de Lee Kuan Yew,
01:30
or the Chinese Communist Party,
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nin do Partido Comunista Chinés,
01:32
indeed of some recalcitrant
friends of mine who kept telling me
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nin dalgúns amigos meus, recalcitrantes,
que estaban sempre a dicirme
01:36
that democracy would be banned
if it ever threatened to change anything.
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que se prohibiría a democracia
se ameazásemos alterar algo.
01:41
Tonight, here, I want to present to you
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Esta noite, quero presentarvos
01:44
an economic case
for an authentic democracy.
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un escenario económico
para unha auténtica democracia.
01:48
I want to ask you
to join me in believing again
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Quero pedirvos que me acompañedes
para volver a crer
01:53
that Lee Kuan Yew,
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que Lee Kuan Yew,
01:56
the Chinese Communist Party
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O Partido Comunista Chinés
01:57
and indeed the Eurogroup
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e o Eurogrupo tamén
01:59
are wrong in believing
that we can dispense with democracy --
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están errados, ao creren que
podemos prescindir da democracia,
02:03
that we need an authentic,
boisterous democracy.
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que precisamos unha democracia
auténtica e estrondosa.
02:07
And without democracy,
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E sen democracia,
02:10
our societies will be nastier,
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as nosas sociedades serán máis ruíns,
02:13
our future bleak
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o noso futuro, escuro
02:15
and our great, new technologies wasted.
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e as nosas grandes, novas tecnoloxías,
botadas a perder.
02:18
Speaking of waste,
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Falando de botar a perder,
02:19
allow me to point out
an interesting paradox
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permitídeme apuntar
un interesante paradoxo
02:22
that is threatening
our economies as we speak.
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que está ameazando
as nosas economías.
02:25
I call it the twin peaks paradox.
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Eu chámolle o paradoxo
dos picos xemelgos.
02:27
One peak you understand --
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Un dos picos, xa sabedes,
02:28
you know it, you recognize it --
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ídelo recoñecer,
02:30
is the mountain of debts
that has been casting a long shadow
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é a montaña de débedas
que proxecta unha longa sombra
02:35
over the United States,
Europe, the whole world.
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sobre os EE.UU.,
Europa, o mundo enteiro.
02:38
We all recognize the mountain of debts.
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Todos recoñecemos
a montaña de débedas.
02:40
But few people discern its twin.
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Pero poucas persoas
distinguen o seu xemelgo.
02:45
A mountain of idle cash
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A montaña de diñeiro improdutivo
02:48
belonging to rich savers
and to corporations,
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que pertence aos aforradores ricos
e ás grandes empresas,
02:53
too terrified to invest it
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demasiado aterrorizados
para investilo
02:55
into the productive activities
that can generate the incomes
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en actividades produtivas
que poidan xerar ingresos
02:59
from which you can extinguish
the mountain of debts
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con que poidamos eliminar
a montaña de débedas
03:02
and which can produce all those things
that humanity desperately needs,
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e que poidan producir o que a
humanidade necesita desesperadamente,
03:06
like green energy.
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como a enerxía verde.
03:07
Now let me give you two numbers.
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Agora vou darvos dous números.
03:10
Over the last three months,
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Nos últimos tres meses,
03:11
in the United States,
in Britain and in the Eurozone,
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nos EE.UU., en Gran Bretaña e
na Eurozona,
03:14
we have invested, collectively,
3.4 trillion dollars
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investimos colectivamente
3,4 billóns de dólares
03:18
on all the wealth-producing goods --
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en todos os bens que producen riqueza
03:21
things like industrial plants, machinery,
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-cousas como instalacións
industriais, maquinaria,
03:24
office blocks, schools,
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edificios de oficinas, escolas,
03:26
roads, railways, machinery,
and so on and so forth.
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estradas, ferrocarrís,
maquinaria, etc., etc.
03:29
$3.4 trillion sounds like a lot of money
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3,4 billóns de dólares
parecen moitos cartos
03:32
until you compare it to the $5.1 trillion
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ata que os comparamos
cos 5,1 billóns
03:36
that has been slushing around
in the same countries,
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que se esparexeron neses
mesmos países,
03:39
in our financial institutions,
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nas nosas institucións financeiras,
03:41
doing absolutely nothing
during the same period
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sen facer absolutamente nada
durante o mesmo período
03:45
except inflating stock exchanges
and bidding up house prices.
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agás inflar os mercados bursátiles
e encarecer os prezos da vivenda.
03:50
So a mountain of debt
and a mountain of idle cash
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Así que temos unha montaña de débeda
e unha montaña de diñeiro improdutivo
03:55
form twin peaks,
failing to cancel each other out
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que forman os picos xemelgos,
sen poder anularse un ao outro
03:59
through the normal
operation of the markets.
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a través da operación
normal dos mercados.
04:02
The result is stagnant wages,
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O resultado é o estancamento dos salarios,
04:05
more than a quarter of 25- to 54-year-olds
in America, in Japan and in Europe
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o desemprego de máis dun cuarto de
traballadores, dos 25 aos 54 anos,
04:11
out of work.
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en América, Xapón e Europa.
04:12
And consequently, low aggregate demand,
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E, consecuentemente, baixa
a demanda agregada
04:14
which in a never-ending cycle,
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nun ciclo sen fin,
04:17
reinforces the pessimism of the investors,
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que reforza o pesimismo dos investidores,
04:20
who, fearing low demand,
reproduce it by not investing --
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que, por medo á baixa demanda,
responden non investindo,
04:24
exactly like Oedipus' father,
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exactamente como o pai de Edipo
04:27
who, terrified
by the prophecy of the oracle
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que, estarrecido
pola profecía do oráculo
04:29
that his son would grow up to kill him,
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de que o seu fillo medraría para matalo,
04:32
unwittingly engineered the conditions
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inconscientemente creou as condicións
04:34
that ensured that Oedipus,
his son, would kill him.
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que aseguraron que Edipo,
o seu fillo, o matase.
04:38
This is my quarrel with capitalism.
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Esta é a miña batalla co capitalismo.
04:41
Its gross wastefulness,
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A súa grave dilapidación de cartos,
04:43
all this idle cash,
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todo este diñeiro improdutivo,
04:44
should be energized to improve lives,
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debería ser canalizado en mellorar vidas,
04:49
to develop human talents,
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en desenvolver o talento humano,
04:50
and indeed to finance
all these technologies,
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e en financiar todas esas
tecnoloxías,
04:53
green technologies,
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tecnoloxías verdes,
04:54
which are absolutely essential
for saving planet Earth.
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que son absolutamente esenciais
para salvar o planeta.
04:58
Am I right in believing
that democracy might be the answer?
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¿Teño razón ao crer
que a democracia podería ser a resposta?
05:01
I believe so,
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Eu penso que si,
05:02
but before we move on,
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pero antes de seguir,
05:04
what do we mean by democracy?
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¿que entendemos por democracia?
05:06
Aristotle defined democracy
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Aristóteles definiu a democracia
05:08
as the constitution
in which the free and the poor,
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como a constitución en que
os libres e os pobres,
05:13
being in the majority, control government.
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ao seren a maioría, controlan o goberno.
05:17
Now, of course Athenian democracy
excluded too many.
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Claro que a democracia ateniense
excluía demasiada xente.
05:20
Women, migrants and,
of course, the slaves.
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Mulleres, migrantes e,
por suposto, escravos.
05:24
But it would be a mistake
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Pero sería un erro
05:25
to dismiss the significance
of ancient Athenian democracy
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rexeitar o significado da
antiga democracia ateniense
05:28
on the basis of whom it excluded.
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baseándonos en quen excluía.
05:31
What was more pertinent,
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O que era máis pertinente,
05:32
and continues to be so
about ancient Athenian democracy,
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e continúa séndoo
na antiga democracia ateniense,
05:36
was the inclusion of the working poor,
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era a inclusión dos traballadores pobres,
05:40
who not only acquired
the right to free speech,
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os que non só adquirían o
dereito da liberdade de expresión,
05:45
but more importantly, crucially,
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senón que, o máis importante, crucial,
05:47
they acquired the rights
to political judgments
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adquirían os dereitos
aos xuízos políticos
05:50
that were afforded equal weight
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que lles concedían igual peso
05:52
in the decision-making
concerning matters of state.
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no proceso de toma de decisións
sobre cuestións de estado.
05:56
Now, of course, Athenian
democracy didn't last long.
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Claro, a democracia ateniense
non durou moito.
05:59
Like a candle that burns brightly,
it burned out quickly.
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Como unha candea que arde vivamente,
queimouse axiña.
06:03
And indeed,
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E de feito,
06:04
our liberal democracies today
do not have their roots in ancient Athens.
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a nosa actual democracia liberal
non ten as súas raíces na antiga Atenas.
06:09
They have their roots in the Magna Carta,
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Ten as súas raíces na Carta Magna,
06:11
in the 1688 Glorious Revolution,
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na Revolución Gloriosa de 1688,
06:14
indeed in the American constitution.
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mesmo na constitución de EE.UU.
06:17
Whereas Athenian democracy
was focusing on the masterless citizen
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Mentres que a democracia ateniense
se centrou na cidadanía sen dono
06:22
and empowering the working poor,
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e no empoderamento dos
traballadores pobres,
06:25
our liberal democracies are founded
on the Magna Carta tradition,
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as nosas democracias liberais baséanse
na tradición da Carta Magna,
06:29
which was, after all,
a charter for masters.
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que era, despois de todo,
unha carta para amos.
06:32
And indeed, liberal democracy
only surfaced when it was possible
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E, de feito, a democracia liberal
só xurdiu cando foi posible
06:36
to separate fully the political sphere
from the economic sphere,
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separar totalmente a esfera
política da esfera económica,
06:40
so as to confine the democratic process
fully in the political sphere,
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para restrinxir o proceso democrático
totalmente á esfera política,
06:45
leaving the economic sphere --
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deixando a esfera económica
06:47
the corporate world, if you want --
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-o mundo empresarial, se queredes-
06:49
as a democracy-free zone.
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como unha zona libre de democracia.
06:53
Now, in our democracies today,
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Ben, na nosa democracia actual,
06:56
this separation of the economic
from the political sphere,
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esta separación da esfera
económica e da politica,
07:00
the moment it started happening,
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o momento en que comezou,
07:02
it gave rise to an inexorable,
epic struggle between the two,
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deu lugar a unha inexorable
loita épica entre as dúas,
07:06
with the economic sphere
colonizing the political sphere,
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coa esfera económica
colonizando a esfera política,
07:10
eating into its power.
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devorando o seu poder.
07:12
Have you wondered why politicians
are not what they used to be?
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Preguntástesvos por que os políticos
non son o que adoitaban ser?
07:16
It's not because their DNA
has degenerated.
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Non é porque o seu ADN
dexenerara.
07:19
(Laughter)
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(Risos)
07:20
It is rather because one can be
in government today and not in power,
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Máis ben é porque hoxe un pode estar
no goberno e non ter poder,
07:25
because power has migrated
from the political to the economic sphere,
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porque o poder migrou
desde a esfera política á económica,
07:28
which is separate.
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que está separada.
07:31
Indeed,
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De feito,
07:32
I spoke about my quarrel
with capitalism.
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falei da miña batalla
contra o capitalismo.
07:35
If you think about it,
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Se pensades niso,
07:36
it is a little bit like
a population of predators,
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é un pouco como unha
poboación de predadores,
07:41
that are so successful in decimating
the prey that they must feed on,
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que teñen tanto éxito en aniquilar
a presa da que se alimentan,
07:46
that in the end they starve.
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que, á fin, morren de fame.
07:48
Similarly,
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De igual xeito,
07:49
the economic sphere has been colonizing
and cannibalizing the political sphere
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a esfera económica foi colonizando
e canibalizando a esfera política
07:53
to such an extent
that it is undermining itself,
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ata tal punto que se
debilitou a si mesma,
07:57
causing economic crisis.
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provocando a crise económica.
07:58
Corporate power is increasing,
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O poder corporativo está
aumentando,
08:00
political goods are devaluing,
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os bens políticos están
desvalorizándose,
08:03
inequality is rising,
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a desigualdade aumenta,
08:05
aggregate demand is falling
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a demanda agregada está caendo
08:06
and CEOs of corporations are too scared
to invest the cash of their corporations.
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e os CEO das empresas teñen demasiado medo
de investir o diñeiro das súas empresas.
08:13
So the more capitalism succeeds
in taking the demos out of democracy,
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Así que canto máis éxito ten o capitalismo
en tirar o demos da democracia,
08:20
the taller the twin peaks
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máis altos son os picos xemelgos
08:21
and the greater the waste
of human resources
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e maior é a perda
de recursos humanos
08:25
and humanity's wealth.
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e de riqueza da humanidade.
08:27
Clearly, if this is right,
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Claramente, se isto é así,
08:30
we must reunite the political
and economic spheres
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debemos reunir as esferas
política e económica
08:33
and better do it
with a demos being in control,
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e mellor facelo cun
demos ao mando,
08:37
like in ancient Athens
except without the slaves
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como na antiga Atenas
pero sen os escravos
08:40
or the exclusion of women and migrants.
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e sen a exclusión de mulleres e migrantes.
08:44
Now, this is not an original idea.
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Agora ben, isto non é unha idea orixinal.
08:45
The Marxist left
had that idea 100 years ago
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A esquerda marxista
tivo esa idea hai cen anos
08:48
and it didn't go very well, did it?
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e non foi moi ben, non?
08:50
The lesson that we learned
from the Soviet debacle
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A lección que aprendemos
do fracaso soviético
08:54
is that only by a miracle
will the working poor be reempowered,
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é que só por un milagre os traballadores
pobres volverán ter poder,
09:00
as they were in ancient Athens,
172
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1976
como o tiñan na antiga Atenas,
09:02
without creating new forms
of brutality and waste.
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sen crear novas formas
de brutalidade nin desproveitos.
09:06
But there is a solution:
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Pero hai unha solución:
09:08
eliminate the working poor.
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eliminar os traballadores pobres.
09:11
Capitalism's doing it
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O capitalismo estao facendo
09:12
by replacing low-wage workers
with automata, androids, robots.
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ao substituír os traballadores con baixos
salarios por autómatas, androides, robots.
09:19
The problem is
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O problema é que
09:20
that as long as the economic
and the political spheres are separate,
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mentres as esferas económica
e política estean separadas,
09:23
automation makes the twin peaks taller,
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4320
a automatización fai os picos máis altos,
09:28
the waste loftier
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1736
e máis altos son os desproveitos
09:30
and the social conflicts deeper,
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e máis profundos os conflitos sociais,
09:32
including --
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mesmo
09:34
soon, I believe --
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1536
-pronto, creo-
09:35
in places like China.
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1600
en lugares como China.
09:38
So we need to reconfigure,
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Así que necesitamos reconfigurar,
09:41
we need to reunite the economic
and the political spheres,
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necesitamos reunir as esferas
económica e política,
09:44
but we'd better do it
by democratizing the reunified sphere,
188
572840
5376
pero será mellor facelo
democratizando as esferas reunificadas,
09:50
lest we end up with
a surveillance-mad hyperautocracy
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5696
para non rematar cunha hiperautocracia
obsesionada coa vixilancia
09:55
that makes The Matrix, the movie,
look like a documentary.
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que fará que o filme Matrix
pareza un documental.
10:00
(Laughter)
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(Risos)
10:01
So the question is not
whether capitalism will survive
192
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3416
Así que a pregunta non é
se o capitalismo sobrevivirá
10:05
the technological innovations
it is spawning.
193
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2320
as innovacións tecnolóxicas
que está xerando.
10:07
The more interesting question
194
595960
1616
A pregunta máis interesante
10:09
is whether capitalism will be succeeded
by something resembling a Matrix dystopia
195
597600
5736
é se o capitalismo terá éxito como
algo que se parece á distopía de Matrix
10:15
or something much closer
to a Star Trek-like society,
196
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4416
ou algo máis achegado á
sociedade de Star Trek,
10:19
where machines serve the humans
197
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2376
onde as máquinas serven os humanos
10:22
and the humans expend their energies
exploring the universe
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610200
4416
e os humanos gastan as súas enerxías
explorando o universo
10:26
and indulging in long debates
about the meaning of life
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4296
e entregándose a longos debates
sobre o sentido da vida
10:30
in some ancient, Athenian-like,
high tech agora.
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618960
4000
nunha antiga ágora, como a de Atenas,
altamente tecnolóxica.
10:36
I think we can afford to be optimistic.
201
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Penso que podemos
permitirnos ser optimistas.
10:41
But what would it take,
202
629400
1296
Pero canto levaría,
10:42
what would it look like
203
630720
1976
como sería
10:44
to have this Star Trek-like utopia,
instead of the Matrix-like dystopia?
204
632720
4880
ter esta utopía Star Trek,
en lugar da distopía Matrix?
10:50
In practical terms,
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1256
En termos prácticos,
10:51
allow me to share just briefly,
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1736
permitídeme compartir brevemente,
10:53
a couple of examples.
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641280
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un par de exemplos.
10:55
At the level of the enterprise,
208
643080
1776
Ao nivel empresarial,
10:56
imagine a capital market,
209
644880
2336
imaxinade un mercado de capitais,
10:59
where you earn capital as you work,
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647240
2680
onde se gaña capital segundo se traballa,
11:02
and where your capital follows you
from one job to another,
211
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e onde o noso capital nos segue
dun traballo a outro,
11:08
from one company to another,
212
656240
1496
dunha empresa a outra,
11:09
and the company --
213
657760
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e a empresa,
11:11
whichever one you happen
to work at at that time --
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659040
3456
calquera que for onde esteamos
traballando nese momento
11:14
is solely owned by those who happen
to work in it at that moment.
215
662520
4320
é propiedade exclusiva daqueles
que traballan alí nese momento.
11:19
Then all income stems
from capital, from profits,
216
667400
4696
Entón todos os ingresos veñen
do capital, dos beneficios
11:24
and the very concept
of wage labor becomes obsolete.
217
672120
4376
e o concepto de traballo asalariado
convértese en obsoleto.
11:28
No more separation between those
who own but do not work in the company
218
676520
6616
Non hai separación entre aqueles
que posúen pero non traballan na empresa
11:35
and those who work
but do not own the company;
219
683160
3256
e aqueles que traballan
pero non posúen a empresa;
11:38
no more tug-of-war
between capital and labor;
220
686440
3200
xa non hai tira e afrouxa
entre capital e traballo;
11:42
no great gap between
investment and saving;
221
690440
4136
ningunha fenda
entre investimento e aforro;
11:46
indeed, no towering twin peaks.
222
694600
3240
de feito, non hai altísimos
picos xemelgos.
11:50
At the level of the global
political economy,
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2376
Ao nivel da economía
política global,
11:53
imagine for a moment
224
701000
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imaxinade por un momento
11:54
that our national currencies
have a free-floating exchange rate,
225
702960
4976
que as nosas moedas nacionais
teñen un tipo de cambio flexible,
11:59
with a universal,
global, digital currency,
226
707960
3776
cunha moeda universal,
global, dixital,
12:03
one that is issued
by the International Monetary Fund,
227
711760
4016
unha emitida polo
Fondo Monetario Internacional,
12:07
the G-20,
228
715800
1216
o G-20,
12:09
on behalf of all humanity.
229
717040
2536
en beneficio de toda a humanidade.
12:11
And imagine further
230
719600
1216
E imaxinade, ademais,
12:12
that all international trade
is denominated in this currency --
231
720840
4336
que todo o comercio internacional
se produza nesa moeda,
12:17
let's call it "the cosmos,"
232
725200
1816
imos chamarlle "o cosmos",
12:19
in units of cosmos --
233
727040
1400
en unidades de cosmos
12:21
with every government agreeing
to be paying into a common fund
234
729720
4376
con cada goberno aceptando
pagar para un fondo común
12:26
a sum of cosmos units proportional
to the country's trade deficit,
235
734120
5536
unha suma de unidades de cosmos
proporcional ao déficit comercial do país,
12:31
or indeed to a country's trade surplus.
236
739680
3400
ou mesmo ao superávit comercial
dun país.
12:35
And imagine that that fund is utilized
to invest in green technologies,
237
743720
5216
E imaxinade que ese fondo se utiliza para
investir en tecnoloxías verdes,
12:40
especially in parts of the world
where investment funding is scarce.
238
748960
5320
especialmente en partes do mundo
onde os investimentos son escasos.
12:46
This is not a new idea.
239
754840
1576
Esta non é unha idea nova.
12:48
It's what, effectively,
John Maynard Keynes proposed
240
756440
3336
É o que, eficazmente,
John Maynard Keynes propuxo
12:51
in 1944 at the Bretton Woods Conference.
241
759800
3320
en 1944 na Conferencia de Bretton Woods.
12:56
The problem is
242
764080
1216
O problema é
12:57
that back then, they didn't have
the technology to implement it.
243
765320
3296
que daquela, non tiñan a
tecnoloxía para desenvolvelo.
13:00
Now we do,
244
768640
1216
Agora témola,
13:01
especially in the context
of a reunified political-economic sphere.
245
769880
5920
especialmente no contexto dunha esfera
reunificada político-económica.
13:08
The world that I am describing to you
246
776640
2416
O mundo que vos estou describindo
13:11
is simultaneously libertarian,
247
779080
2456
é asemade libertario,
13:13
in that it prioritizes
empowered individuals,
248
781560
4576
en canto prioriza o empoderamento
das persoas,
13:18
Marxist,
249
786160
1216
marxista,
13:19
since it will have confined
to the dustbin of history
250
787400
3216
xa que levará á papeleira
da historia
13:22
the division between capital and labor,
251
790640
2456
a división entre capital e traballo,
13:25
and Keynesian,
252
793120
1560
e keynesiano,
13:27
global Keynesian.
253
795320
1480
keynesiano global.
13:30
But above all else,
254
798320
1576
Pero sobre todo,
13:31
it is a world in which we will be able
to imagine an authentic democracy.
255
799920
4920
é un mundo no que seremos quen
de imaxinar unha auténtica democracia.
13:37
Will such a world dawn?
256
805760
1760
¿Alborexerá tal mundo?
13:40
Or shall we descend
into a Matrix-like dystopia?
257
808400
4496
¿Ou caeremos nunha distopía
como a de Matrix?
13:44
The answer lies in the political choice
that we shall be making collectively.
258
812920
4120
A resposta está na escolla política
que fagamos colectivamente.
13:49
It is our choice,
259
817720
1616
É a nosa escolla,
13:51
and we'd better make it democratically.
260
819360
2320
e será mellor que a fagamos
democraticamente.
13:54
Thank you.
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822280
1256
Grazas.
13:55
(Applause)
262
823560
3360
(Aplausos)
14:01
Bruno Giussani: Yanis ...
263
829480
1200
Bruno Giussani: Yanis,
14:03
It was you who described yourself
in your bios as a libertarian Marxist.
264
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4440
foi vostede quen se describiu
como un marxista libertario.
14:10
What is the relevance
of Marx's analysis today?
265
838400
2520
Cal é a relevancia
da análise de Marx hoxe?
14:14
Yanis Varoufakis: Well, if there was
any relevance in what I just said,
266
842000
3336
Yanis Varoufakis: Ben, se hai
algunha relevancia no que acabo de dicir,
14:17
then Marx is relevant.
267
845360
1216
entón Marx é relevante.
14:18
Because the whole point of reunifying
the political and economic is --
268
846600
3496
Porque o motivo de reunificar
a política e a economía é que,
14:22
if we don't do it,
269
850120
1216
se non o facemos,
14:23
then technological innovation
is going to create
270
851360
2256
a innovación tecnolóxica
vai xerar
14:25
such a massive fall in aggregate demand,
271
853640
2296
unha caída enorme na demanda agregada,
14:27
what Larry Summers
refers to as secular stagnation.
272
855960
4776
o que Larry Summers
denomina como estancamento secular.
14:32
With this crisis migrating
from one part of the world,
273
860760
2856
Con esta crise migratoria
dunha parte do mundo,
14:35
as it is now,
274
863640
1536
como a actual,
14:37
it will destabilize
not only our democracies,
275
865200
2696
desestabilizará
non só as nosas democracias,
14:39
but even the emerging world that is not
that keen on liberal democracy.
276
867920
4216
senón tamén o mundo emerxente que non
é partidario da democracia liberal.
14:44
So if this analysis holds water,
then Marx is absolutely relevant.
277
872160
3816
Así que se esta análise é sólida
entón Marx é totalmente relevante.
14:48
But so is Hayek,
278
876000
1736
Pero tamén o é Hayek,
14:49
that's why I'm a libertarian Marxist,
279
877760
1816
por iso son marxista libertario,
14:51
and so is Keynes,
280
879600
1216
e tamén o é Keynes,
14:52
so that's why I'm totally confused.
281
880840
1896
por iso estou tan confuso.
14:54
(Laughter)
282
882760
1216
(Risos)
14:56
BG: Indeed, and possibly we are too, now.
283
884000
2056
BG: Certo, e posiblemente
agora nós tamén
14:58
(Laughter)
284
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1296
(Risos)
14:59
(Applause)
285
887400
1976
(Aplausos)
15:01
YV: If you are not confused,
you are not thinking, OK?
286
889400
2776
YV: Se non estás confuso,
é que non estás pensando, non?
15:04
BG: That's a very, very Greek
philosopher kind of thing to say --
287
892200
3096
BG: Ese é un comentario
moi de filósofo grego...
YV: En realidade, díxoo Einstein...
15:07
YV: That was Einstein, actually --
288
895320
1656
15:09
BG: During your talk
you mentioned Singapore and China,
289
897000
2616
BG: Durante a súa charla mencionou
Singapur e China,
15:11
and last night at the speaker dinner,
290
899640
2056
e a pasada noite na
cea de relatores
15:13
you expressed a pretty strong opinion
about how the West looks at China.
291
901720
5176
expresou unha firme opinión
acerca de como Occidente mira a China.
15:18
Would you like to share that?
292
906920
1576
¿Podería compartila?
15:20
YV: Well, there's a great
degree of hypocrisy.
293
908520
2160
YV: Ben, hai un enorme grao de
hipocrisía.
15:23
In our liberal democracies,
we have a semblance of democracy.
294
911400
4296
Nas nosas democracias liberais,
temos unha aparencia de democracia.
15:27
It's because we have confined,
as I was saying in my talk,
295
915720
2736
É porque restrinximos, como
dixen na miña charla,
15:30
democracy to the political sphere,
296
918480
1656
a democracia á esfera política,
15:32
while leaving the one sphere
where all the action is --
297
920160
3456
mentres deixamos a esfera
onde está toda a acción
15:35
the economic sphere --
298
923640
1216
-a esfera económica-
15:36
a completely democracy-free zone.
299
924880
1840
como unha zona totalmente
libre de democracia.
15:39
In a sense,
300
927280
1256
Nun sentido,
15:40
if I am allowed to be provocative,
301
928560
2200
se se me permite ser provocador,
15:43
China today is closer to Britain
in the 19th century.
302
931880
4416
hoxe China está máis perto de
Gran Bretaña que no século XIX.
15:48
Because remember,
303
936320
1256
Porque lembre,
15:49
we tend to associate
liberalism with democracy --
304
937600
2336
tendemos a asociar
liberalismo con democracia,
15:51
that's a mistake, historically.
305
939960
1496
iso é un erro, historicamente.
15:53
Liberalism, liberal,
it's like John Stuart Mill.
306
941480
2536
Liberalismo, liberal,
é como John Stuart Mill.
15:56
John Stuart Mill was particularly
skeptical about the democratic process.
307
944040
4696
John Stuart Mill era particularmente
escéptico sobre o proceso democrático.
16:00
So what you are seeing now in China
is a very similar process
308
948760
5376
Así que o que vemos agora en China
é un proceso moi similar
16:06
to the one that we had in Britain
during the Industrial Revolution,
309
954160
3176
ao que tivemos en Gran Bretaña
durante a Revolución Industrial,
16:09
especially the transition
from the first to the second.
310
957360
2976
especialmente durante a transición
da primeira á segunda.
16:12
And to be castigating China
311
960360
3296
E estar castigando a China
16:15
for doing that which the West did
in the 19th century,
312
963680
3136
por facer o que Occidente fixo
no século XIX,
16:18
smacks of hypocrisy.
313
966840
1320
soa a hipocrisía.
16:21
BG: I am sure that many people here
are wondering about your experience
314
969520
3656
BG: Estou seguro de que moita xente aquí
se preguntará pola súa experiencia
16:25
as the Finance Minister of Greece
earlier this year.
315
973200
2736
como Ministro de Finanzas de Grecia
a comezos deste ano.
16:27
YV: I knew this was coming.
316
975960
1381
YV: Xa o vía vir.
16:29
BG: Yes.
317
977365
1251
BG: Si.
16:30
BG: Six months after,
318
978640
1336
BG: Seis meses despois,
16:32
how do you look back
at the first half of the year?
319
980000
2400
¿como ve o que pasou
na primeira metade do ano?
YV: Sumamente fascinante,
desde un punto de vista persoal,
16:35
YV: Extremely exciting,
from a personal point of view,
320
983920
2616
16:38
and very disappointing,
321
986560
1256
e moi decepcionante,
16:39
because we had an opportunity
to reboot the Eurozone.
322
987840
3896
porque tiñamos unha oportunidade
para reiniciar a Eurozona.
16:43
Not just Greece, the Eurozone.
323
991760
2096
Non só Grecia, a Eurozona.
16:45
To move away from the complacency
324
993880
2936
Para afastarse da complacencia
16:48
and the constant denial
that there was a massive --
325
996840
2456
e a constante negación
de que habia unha enorme,
16:51
and there is a massive
architectural fault line
326
999320
2856
e hai unha enorme
fenda na arquitectura
16:54
going through the Eurozone,
327
1002200
2176
da Eurozona,
16:56
which is threatening, massively,
the whole of the European Union process.
328
1004400
4416
que está ameazando a totalidade
do proceso da Unión Europea.
17:00
We had an opportunity
on the basis of the Greek program --
329
1008840
3176
Tivemos unha oportunidade
baseada no programa grego
17:04
which by the way,
330
1012040
1336
que, por certo,
17:05
was the first program
to manifest that denial --
331
1013400
4376
foi o primeiro programa
que manifestou esa negación
17:09
to put it right.
332
1017800
1216
para corrixila.
17:11
And, unfortunately,
333
1019040
1216
E, desgrazadamente,
17:12
the powers in the Eurozone,
334
1020280
1816
os poderes da zona euro,
17:14
in the Eurogroup,
335
1022120
1200
no Eurogrupo,
17:16
chose to maintain denial.
336
1024079
1977
optaron por manter a negación.
17:18
But you know what happens.
337
1026079
1257
Pero xa sabe o que pasa.
17:19
This is the experience
of the Soviet Union.
338
1027359
2056
É a experiencia da Unión Soviética.
17:21
When you try to keep alive
339
1029440
2495
Cando intentas manter vivo
17:23
an economic system
that architecturally cannot survive,
340
1031960
3879
un sistema económico que
estructuralmente non pode sobrevivir,
17:28
through political will
and through authoritarianism,
341
1036520
2655
a través da vontade política
e a través do autoritarismo,
17:31
you may succeed in prolonging it,
342
1039200
1656
podes ter éxito en prolongalo,
17:32
but when change happens
343
1040880
1575
pero cando se produce o cambio
17:34
it happens very abruptly
and catastrophically.
344
1042480
2496
ocorre de xeito abrupto e catastrófico.
17:37
BG: What kind of change
are you foreseeing?
345
1045000
2007
BG: ¿Que tipo de cambio prevé?
17:39
YV: Well, there's no doubt
346
1047031
1254
YV: Ben, non hai dúbida
17:40
that if we don't change
the architecture of the Eurozone,
347
1048309
2667
de que se non cambiamos a
arquitectura da Eurozona,
17:43
the Eurozone has no future.
348
1051001
1894
a Eurozona non ten futuro.
17:44
BG: Did you make any mistakes
when you were Finance Minister?
349
1052920
2896
BG: ¿Cometeu erros cando
era ministro de Finanzas?
17:47
YV: Every day.
350
1055840
1216
YV: Todos os días.
17:49
BG: For example?
YV: Anybody who looks back --
351
1057080
2536
BG: ¿Por exemplo?
YV: Calquera que mira cara atrás...
17:51
(Applause)
352
1059640
2080
(Aplausos)
17:56
No, but seriously.
353
1064120
1376
Non, pero en serio.
17:57
If there's any Minister of Finance,
or of anything else for that matter,
354
1065520
3576
Se hai algún ministro de Facenda
ou de calquera outra cousa,
18:01
who tells you after six months in a job,
355
1069120
2216
que di ao cabo de seis meses
nun traballo,
18:03
especially in such a stressful situation,
356
1071360
3696
especialmente nunha situación
con tanta tensión,
18:07
that they have made no mistake,
they're dangerous people.
357
1075080
2696
que non cometeu ningún erro,
é unha persoa perigosa.
18:09
Of course I made mistakes.
358
1077800
1296
Claro que cometín erros.
18:11
The greatest mistake
was to sign the application
359
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2816
O erro máis grande
foi asinar a petición
18:13
for the extension of a loan agreement
360
1081960
2096
para ampliar o acordo do préstamo
18:16
in the end of February.
361
1084080
1616
a finais de febreiro.
18:17
I was imagining
362
1085720
1216
Imaxinaba
18:18
that there was a genuine interest
on the side of the creditors
363
1086960
2976
que había un interese xenuíno
por parte dos acredores
por atopar puntos de encontro.
18:21
to find common ground.
364
1089960
1256
18:23
And there wasn't.
365
1091240
1216
E non o había.
18:24
They were simply interested
in crushing our government,
366
1092480
2616
So lles interesaba
esmagar o noso goberno,
18:27
just because they did not want
367
1095120
1456
só porque non querían
18:28
to have to deal with
the architectural fault lines
368
1096600
3136
ter que enfrontarse coas fendas
18:31
that were running through the Eurozone.
369
1099760
2016
que estaban percorrendo a Eurozona.
18:33
And because they didn't want to admit
370
1101800
1816
E porque non quixeron admitir
18:35
that for five years they were implementing
a catastrophic program in Greece.
371
1103640
3616
que estiveran cinco anos pondo en
marcha un programa catastrófico en Grecia.
18:39
We lost one-third of our nominal GDP.
372
1107280
2896
Perdemos un terzo do noso
PIB nominal.
18:42
This is worse than the Great Depression.
373
1110200
1936
Isto é peor cá Gran Depresión.
18:44
And no one has come clean
374
1112160
1256
E ninguén saiu
18:45
from the troika of lenders
that have been imposing this policy
375
1113440
2936
da troika de acredores
que impuxeron esta política
18:48
to say, "This was a colossal mistake."
376
1116400
2976
a dicir "Isto foi un erro colosal."
18:51
BG: Despite all this,
377
1119400
1216
BG: A pesar de todo isto,
18:52
and despite the aggressiveness
of the discussion,
378
1120640
2336
e a pesar da agresividade
da discusión,
18:55
you seem to be remaining
quite pro-European.
379
1123000
2416
parece ser aínda
bastante pro-Europa.
18:57
YV: Absolutely.
380
1125440
1216
YV: Totalmente.
18:58
Look, my criticism
of the European Union and the Eurozone
381
1126680
4136
Mire, as miñas críticas da
Unión Europea e a Eurozona
19:02
comes from a person
who lives and breathes Europe.
382
1130840
4040
veñen dunha persoa
que vive e respira Europa.
19:07
My greatest fear is that
the Eurozone will not survive.
383
1135680
3576
O meu maior medo é que
a Eurozona non sobreviva.
19:11
Because if it doesn't,
384
1139280
1456
Porque se non o fai,
19:12
the centrifugal forces
that will be unleashed
385
1140760
2856
as forzas centrífugas
que se desencadearán
19:15
will be demonic,
386
1143640
1696
serán demoníacas,
19:17
and they will destroy the European Union.
387
1145360
1976
e destruirán a Unión Europea.
19:19
And that will be catastrophic
not just for Europe
388
1147360
2416
E será catastrófico
non só para Europa
19:21
but for the whole global economy.
389
1149800
1616
senón para toda a economía global.
19:23
We are probably the largest
economy in the world.
390
1151440
4096
Somos probablemente a maior
economía do mundo.
19:27
And if we allow ourselves
391
1155560
1736
E se nos permitimos
19:29
to fall into a route
of the postmodern 1930's,
392
1157320
2816
caer na vía duns
posmodernos anos 30,
19:32
which seems to me to be what we are doing,
393
1160160
2656
que parece que é o que estamos facendo,
19:34
then that will be detrimental
394
1162840
1816
entón será prexudicial
19:36
to the future of Europeans
and non-Europeans alike.
395
1164680
3416
para o futuro tanto de europeos
como de non europeos.
BG: Dende logo agardamos
que se equivoque nese punto.
19:40
BG: We definitely hope
you are wrong on that point.
396
1168120
2416
19:42
Yanis, thank you for coming to TED.
397
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1696
Yanis, grazas por vir ao TED.
19:44
YV: Thank you.
398
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1216
YV: Grazas.
19:45
(Applause)
399
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4823
(Aplausos)
Translated by Carme Paz
Reviewed by Alicia Ferreiro

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Yanis Varoufakis - Economist and professor
Yanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.

Why you should listen

Yanis Varoufakis describes himself as a "libertarian Marxist," although, he says, "It is not something that I volunteer to talk about much, because the very mention of Marx switches audiences off." He teaches economic theory at the University of Athens, where he challenges mainstream notions -- arguing that after the financial crash of 2008 we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.

He became widely known in the first half of 2015 when, as Minister of Finance of the newly formed Greek government, he was a leading, outspoken and much-discussed figure in the renegotiations of Greece's debt.

In May 2017, Varoufakis released Adults in The Room: My Battle With Europe’s Deep Establishment, a personal account of Europe's hidden agenda and an urgent wake-up call to renew European democracy.

More profile about the speaker
Yanis Varoufakis | Speaker | TED.com
THE ORIGINAL VIDEO ON TED.COM