TEDGlobal>Geneva
Yanis Varoufakis: Capitalism will eat democracy -- unless we speak up
瓦魯法基斯: 除非我哋發聲，否則資本主義會蠶食民主
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你有冇諗過點解政治人物同佢哋以前本身唔同？點解政府好似解決唔到問題？前希臘財長兼經濟學家瓦魯法基斯解釋，係因為今時今日你可以參與政治，但唔可以有權力，因為權力掌握喺控制經濟嘅人身上。佢相信有錢人同公司都喺度蠶食梗政治，呢樣亦係造成金融危機嘅原因。呢埸演講裏面，佢分享佢嘅願景︰一個世界冇資產階級同勞工階級嘅鬥爭，每個人都追隨自由主義、馬克思主義同凱恩斯主義。
Yanis Varoufakis - Economist and professor
Yanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism. Full bio
Yanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Democracy.
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民主
00:14
In the West,
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活喺西方社會嘅我哋犯咗個好大嘅錯
00:16
we make a colossal mistake
taking it for granted.
taking it for granted.
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就係視民主理所當然
雖然民主係一朵最脆弱嘅花
00:20
We see democracy
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00:21
not as the most fragile
of flowers that it really is,
of flowers that it really is,
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但我哋冇將民主視為一朵最脆弱嘅花
我哋反而視佢為社會嘅擺設品
00:26
but we see it as part
of our society's furniture.
of our society's furniture.
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我哋往往覺得佢係必然嘅
00:29
We tend to think of it
as an intransigent given.
as an intransigent given.
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00:34
We mistakenly believe that capitalism
begets inevitably democracy.
begets inevitably democracy.
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我哋以為資本主義會帶嚟民主
00:39
It doesn't.
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但唔係
新加坡前總理李光耀
同埋北京一班好似佢咁嘅人
同埋北京一班好似佢咁嘅人
00:41
Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew
and his great imitators in Beijing
and his great imitators in Beijing
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說服到人
00:45
have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt
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繁華嘅資本市場同顯著嘅增長
00:48
that it is perfectly possible
to have a flourishing capitalism,
to have a flourishing capitalism,
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係絕對可以出現喺極權政體裏面
00:52
spectacular growth,
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00:54
while politics remains democracy-free.
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00:58
Indeed, democracy is receding
in our neck of the woods,
in our neck of the woods,
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事實上，民主喺歐洲一帶倒退緊
01:02
here in Europe.
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01:04
Earlier this year,
while I was representing Greece --
while I was representing Greece --
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今年初，我代表希臘
代表當時啱啱新選出嘅希臘政府
01:07
the newly elected Greek government --
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以財長身份出席歐元集團會議
01:10
in the Eurogroup as its Finance Minister,
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我被清楚告知
01:12
I was told in no uncertain terms
that our nation's democratic process --
that our nation's democratic process --
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希臘嘅民主進程、我哋嘅選舉
01:17
our elections --
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唔可以干預
01:19
could not be allowed to interfere
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希臘即將被落實嘅經濟政策
01:21
with economic policies
that were being implemented in Greece.
that were being implemented in Greece.
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當時我覺得李光耀或者中國共產黨
01:25
At that moment,
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01:26
I felt that there could be no greater
vindication of Lee Kuan Yew,
vindication of Lee Kuan Yew,
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都唔會有更加好嘅辯護藉口
01:30
or the Chinese Communist Party,
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而且有幾個固執嘅朋友不斷同我講
01:32
indeed of some recalcitrant
friends of mine who kept telling me
friends of mine who kept telling me
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如果民主真係可以改變任何嘢
01:36
that democracy would be banned
if it ever threatened to change anything.
if it ever threatened to change anything.
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民主就會被打壓
01:41
Tonight, here, I want to present to you
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今晚喺度，我想同你哋講
一個真正民主社會底下嘅經濟情況
01:44
an economic case
for an authentic democracy.
for an authentic democracy.
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我想請大家同我一齊再次睇清楚
01:48
I want to ask you
to join me in believing again
to join me in believing again
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李光耀、中國共產黨同埋歐元集團
01:53
that Lee Kuan Yew,
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01:56
the Chinese Communist Party
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01:57
and indeed the Eurogroup
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01:59
are wrong in believing
that we can dispense with democracy --
that we can dispense with democracy --
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以為我哋可以分配民主
02:03
that we need an authentic,
boisterous democracy.
boisterous democracy.
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但我哋真正要嘅
係一個真正、多人參與嘅民主
02:07
And without democracy,
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冇咗民主，我哋社會會唔掂
02:10
our societies will be nastier,
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未來會暗淡，新科技亦都會浪費
02:13
our future bleak
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02:15
and our great, new technologies wasted.
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講起浪費
02:18
Speaking of waste,
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等我指出一個好有趣
會要脅我哋經濟嘅悖論
會要脅我哋經濟嘅悖論
02:19
allow me to point out
an interesting paradox
an interesting paradox
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02:22
that is threatening
our economies as we speak.
our economies as we speak.
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02:25
I call it the twin peaks paradox.
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我叫佢做「雙峰悖論」
第一個峰你哋知道嘅
02:27
One peak you understand --
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02:28
you know it, you recognize it --
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02:30
is the mountain of debts
that has been casting a long shadow
that has been casting a long shadow
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就係喺美國，歐洲，以至全球
債台高築構成長期陰霾
02:35
over the United States,
Europe, the whole world.
Europe, the whole world.
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我哋知道有好多債務
02:38
We all recognize the mountain of debts.
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但好少人意識到佢有個孖生兄弟
02:40
But few people discern its twin.
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一座由有錢人同大機構嘅閑置資金
砌出嚟嘅山峰
砌出嚟嘅山峰
02:45
A mountain of idle cash
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02:48
belonging to rich savers
and to corporations,
and to corporations,
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佢哋唔夠膽投資佢哋嘅存款
去一啲製造營利嘅生產活動度
去一啲製造營利嘅生產活動度
02:53
too terrified to invest it
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02:55
into the productive activities
that can generate the incomes
that can generate the incomes
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02:59
from which you can extinguish
the mountain of debts
the mountain of debts
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呢啲生產活動其實可以償還債務
仲可以製造人類急需要用嘅嘢
03:02
and which can produce all those things
that humanity desperately needs,
that humanity desperately needs,
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例如可再生能源
03:06
like green energy.
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依家，我想講兩個數字
03:07
Now let me give you two numbers.
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喺過去三個月入面
03:10
Over the last three months,
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我哋喺美國，英國同歐元區
各種可以製造財富嘅商品
各種可以製造財富嘅商品
03:11
in the United States,
in Britain and in the Eurozone,
in Britain and in the Eurozone,
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03:14
we have invested, collectively,
3.4 trillion dollars
3.4 trillion dollars
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總共投資咗 3.4 萬億美元
03:18
on all the wealth-producing goods --
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03:21
things like industrial plants, machinery,
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好似有工廠、機械廠、寫字樓
03:24
office blocks, schools,
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學校、道路、鐵路、機械等
03:26
roads, railways, machinery,
and so on and so forth.
and so on and so forth.
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3.4 萬億美元聽落好似好多錢
03:29
$3.4 trillion sounds like a lot of money
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03:32
until you compare it to the $5.1 trillion
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直至你攞佢同 5.1 萬億美元比較
呢一筆 5.1 萬億嘅資金
03:36
that has been slushing around
in the same countries,
in the same countries,
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喺同一批國家嘅金融機構裏面
03:39
in our financial institutions,
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03:41
doing absolutely nothing
during the same period
during the same period
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除咗加劇股票市場通脹
令房價上升之外
03:45
except inflating stock exchanges
and bidding up house prices.
and bidding up house prices.
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喺同一期間就再冇發揮過任何作用
所以呢，一座債務嘅山
同一座閑置現金嘅山
同一座閑置現金嘅山
03:50
So a mountain of debt
and a mountain of idle cash
and a mountain of idle cash
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形成兩座山峰
03:55
form twin peaks,
failing to cancel each other out
failing to cancel each other out
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兩者都冇通過正常市場運作抵消對方
03:59
through the normal
operation of the markets.
operation of the markets.
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結果造成薪酬停滯
04:02
The result is stagnant wages,
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04:05
more than a quarter of 25- to 54-year-olds
in America, in Japan and in Europe
in America, in Japan and in Europe
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喺美國，日本同歐洲
就有超過四分之一
介乎 25 至 54 歲嘅人冇工做
介乎 25 至 54 歲嘅人冇工做
04:11
out of work.
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跟住，經濟總需求就會
進入永無止境嘅減退周期
進入永無止境嘅減退周期
04:12
And consequently, low aggregate demand,
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04:14
which in a never-ending cycle,
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04:17
reinforces the pessimism of the investors,
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令投資者對前景更悲觀
04:20
who, fearing low demand,
reproduce it by not investing --
reproduce it by not investing --
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投資者怕咗低需求量
於是唔再投資
於是唔再投資
就好似伊底帕斯王嘅老竇
04:24
exactly like Oedipus' father,
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被神預言佢個仔大個之後會殺死佢
04:27
who, terrified
by the prophecy of the oracle
by the prophecy of the oracle
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04:29
that his son would grow up to kill him,
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佢好驚
但佢亦無意中營造咗被殺嘅條件出嚟
04:32
unwittingly engineered the conditions
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04:34
that ensured that Oedipus,
his son, would kill him.
his son, would kill him.
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令佢個仔伊底帕斯王真係殺咗佢
04:38
This is my quarrel with capitalism.
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呢個就係我對資本主義嘅爭論
04:41
Its gross wastefulness,
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資本主義造成浪費
資本主義之下閑置嘅錢早就應該
04:43
all this idle cash,
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04:44
should be energized to improve lives,
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用嚟提高人類生活水平、發展人才
04:49
to develop human talents,
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04:50
and indeed to finance
all these technologies,
all these technologies,
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同埋資助開發可再生能源科技
04:53
green technologies,
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呢啲科技對保護地球好重要
04:54
which are absolutely essential
for saving planet Earth.
for saving planet Earth.
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04:58
Am I right in believing
that democracy might be the answer?
that democracy might be the answer?
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咁民主可唔可以扭轉呢一切？
我相信得
05:01
I believe so,
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但行動之前，我哋要知究竟咩係民主
05:02
but before we move on,
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05:04
what do we mean by democracy?
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05:06
Aristotle defined democracy
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亞里士多德定義民主做︰
當自由嘅人同窮人
佔體制大多數控制政府
佔體制大多數控制政府
05:08
as the constitution
in which the free and the poor,
in which the free and the poor,
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05:13
being in the majority, control government.
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05:17
Now, of course Athenian democracy
excluded too many.
excluded too many.
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當然，雅典時代嘅民主
將太多人排除在外
將太多人排除在外
當中包括女人、移民、奴隸
05:20
Women, migrants and,
of course, the slaves.
of course, the slaves.
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但係，如果因為呢啲被排除嘅人
05:24
But it would be a mistake
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05:25
to dismiss the significance
of ancient Athenian democracy
of ancient Athenian democracy
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而忽視古雅典民主嘅成功之處
咁係錯嘅
05:28
on the basis of whom it excluded.
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05:31
What was more pertinent,
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雅典民主裏邊更值得肯定嘅係
05:32
and continues to be so
about ancient Athenian democracy,
about ancient Athenian democracy,
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而且就算時至今日仍然值得肯定嘅係
佢囊括埋勞動階級
05:36
was the inclusion of the working poor,
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令佢哋唔單止有言論自由嘅權利
05:40
who not only acquired
the right to free speech,
the right to free speech,
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更重要、更重要嘅係
佢哋有權批評政治
佢哋有權批評政治
05:45
but more importantly, crucially,
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05:47
they acquired the rights
to political judgments
to political judgments
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05:50
that were afforded equal weight
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而且佢哋嘅意見
對國家決策係同等重要
對國家決策係同等重要
05:52
in the decision-making
concerning matters of state.
concerning matters of state.
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05:56
Now, of course, Athenian
democracy didn't last long.
democracy didn't last long.
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古雅典民主持續咗唔係好耐
就好似一枝好光嘅蠟燭好快就燒完
05:59
Like a candle that burns brightly,
it burned out quickly.
it burned out quickly.
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的而且確
06:03
And indeed,
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現今嘅自由民主唔係嚟自古雅典
06:04
our liberal democracies today
do not have their roots in ancient Athens.
do not have their roots in ancient Athens.
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佢哋源自 1688 年
光榮革命時期嘅美國憲法
光榮革命時期嘅美國憲法
06:09
They have their roots in the Magna Carta,
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06:11
in the 1688 Glorious Revolution,
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或者嚟自大憲章
06:14
indeed in the American constitution.
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06:17
Whereas Athenian democracy
was focusing on the masterless citizen
was focusing on the masterless citizen
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而雅典民主關注嘅係普通平民
授權予貧苦勞動階級
06:22
and empowering the working poor,
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06:25
our liberal democracies are founded
on the Magna Carta tradition,
on the Magna Carta tradition,
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我哋嘅自由民主
建立喺大憲章嘅傳統上面
建立喺大憲章嘅傳統上面
但點都好，大憲章都係有錢人嘅憲章
06:29
which was, after all,
a charter for masters.
a charter for masters.
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當政治領域同經濟領域分開
06:32
And indeed, liberal democracy
only surfaced when it was possible
only surfaced when it was possible
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而民主進程受制於政治領域裏面時
06:36
to separate fully the political sphere
from the economic sphere,
from the economic sphere,
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經濟領域，或者商業世界
06:40
so as to confine the democratic process
fully in the political sphere,
fully in the political sphere,
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就會變成一個冇民主成份嘅地方
06:45
leaving the economic sphere --
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06:47
the corporate world, if you want --
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咁樣，自由民主先會出現
06:49
as a democracy-free zone.
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06:53
Now, in our democracies today,
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我哋今時今日嘅民主
將經濟由政治領域分出嚟
將經濟由政治領域分出嚟
06:56
this separation of the economic
from the political sphere,
from the political sphere,
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呢一切開始發生嘅時候
07:00
the moment it started happening,
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亦同時引發兩者之間
無可避免嘅長期戰爭
無可避免嘅長期戰爭
07:02
it gave rise to an inexorable,
epic struggle between the two,
epic struggle between the two,
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經濟領域殖民統治政治領域
07:06
with the economic sphere
colonizing the political sphere,
colonizing the political sphere,
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經濟領域將政治領域嘅權利吞噬
07:10
eating into its power.
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07:12
Have you wondered why politicians
are not what they used to be?
are not what they used to be?
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你哋有冇諗過點解
宜家嘅政治家同以前嘅佢哋唔同？
07:16
It's not because their DNA
has degenerated.
has degenerated.
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唔係因為佢哋 DNA 變咗
（笑聲）
07:19
(Laughter)
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而係因為依家
喺政府做嘢嘅人已經冇權力
喺政府做嘢嘅人已經冇權力
07:20
It is rather because one can be
in government today and not in power,
in government today and not in power,
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因為權力已經從政治領域轉移到
07:25
because power has migrated
from the political to the economic sphere,
from the political to the economic sphere,
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同政治領域無關嘅經濟領域
07:28
which is separate.
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07:31
Indeed,
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講真，以上就係我憎資本主義嘅地方
07:32
I spoke about my quarrel
with capitalism.
with capitalism.
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07:35
If you think about it,
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你諗下，好似一班肉食動物
07:36
it is a little bit like
a population of predators,
a population of predators,
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07:41
that are so successful in decimating
the prey that they must feed on,
the prey that they must feed on,
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殺死咗大量佢哋懶以生存嘅獵物
07:46
that in the end they starve.
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最後唯有自己挨餓
同樣道理
07:48
Similarly,
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經濟領域殖民同吞食咗政治領域
07:49
the economic sphere has been colonizing
and cannibalizing the political sphere
and cannibalizing the political sphere
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喺呢種情況下佢其實削弱嘅係自己
07:53
to such an extent
that it is undermining itself,
that it is undermining itself,
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令自己面臨經濟危機
07:57
causing economic crisis.
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企業勢力崛起緊，但政治勢力減緊
07:58
Corporate power is increasing,
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08:00
political goods are devaluing,
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08:03
inequality is rising,
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唔平等嘅問題加劇緊
08:05
aggregate demand is falling
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總需求又下跌梗
08:06
and CEOs of corporations are too scared
to invest the cash of their corporations.
to invest the cash of their corporations.
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企業總裁怕投資自己公司啲錢去第度
08:13
So the more capitalism succeeds
in taking the demos out of democracy,
in taking the demos out of democracy,
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資本主義越係將人從民主裏面剔除
兩座負債同閑錢嘅山峰就會越嚟越高
08:20
the taller the twin peaks
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08:21
and the greater the waste
of human resources
of human resources
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人力資源同人類財富亦會越嚟越浪費
08:25
and humanity's wealth.
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08:27
Clearly, if this is right,
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好明顯，如果咁樣嘅推測係啱嘅話
我哋就必須要合返埋政治同經濟領域
08:30
we must reunite the political
and economic spheres
and economic spheres
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最好可以畀人民控制大局
08:33
and better do it
with a demos being in control,
with a demos being in control,
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就好似古雅典一樣
08:37
like in ancient Athens
except without the slaves
except without the slaves
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但奴隸、女人同移民唔包括在內
08:40
or the exclusion of women and migrants.
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08:44
Now, this is not an original idea.
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呢樣嘢並唔係咩新概念
馬克思主義者一百年前就有咁嘅諗法
08:45
The Marxist left
had that idea 100 years ago
had that idea 100 years ago
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但佢哋嘅諗法唔係發展得好好
08:48
and it didn't go very well, did it?
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08:50
The lesson that we learned
from the Soviet debacle
from the Soviet debacle
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我哋從蘇聯解體學到
只有奇蹟先可以
令勞動階層重新獲得權力
令勞動階層重新獲得權力
08:54
is that only by a miracle
will the working poor be reempowered,
will the working poor be reempowered,
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就好似古代雅典冇帶嚟
新形式嘅暴行同浪費咁
新形式嘅暴行同浪費咁
09:00
as they were in ancient Athens,
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09:02
without creating new forms
of brutality and waste.
of brutality and waste.
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09:06
But there is a solution:
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但有一個解决辦法：消滅勞動階層
09:08
eliminate the working poor.
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09:11
Capitalism's doing it
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資本主義正係做緊呢樣嘢
09:12
by replacing low-wage workers
with automata, androids, robots.
with automata, androids, robots.
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佢通過自動程式、安卓系統、機械人
取代低薪嘅勞動力
09:19
The problem is
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問題係只要經濟同政治領域一直分離
09:20
that as long as the economic
and the political spheres are separate,
and the political spheres are separate,
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自動化過程會令
兩座負債同閑錢嘅山峰更加高
兩座負債同閑錢嘅山峰更加高
09:23
automation makes the twin peaks taller,
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加劇浪費，同埋加深社會矛盾
09:28
the waste loftier
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09:30
and the social conflicts deeper,
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我相信中國呢類地方會好快發生咁嘅事
09:32
including --
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09:34
soon, I believe --
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09:35
in places like China.
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09:38
So we need to reconfigure,
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因此我哋要改造
我哋要將經濟領域同政治領域拉返埋
09:41
we need to reunite the economic
and the political spheres,
and the political spheres,
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方法就係將兩個領域民主化
09:44
but we'd better do it
by democratizing the reunified sphere,
by democratizing the reunified sphere,
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以免我哋最終生活喺
一個監控狂、超專制嘅制度下
一個監控狂、超專制嘅制度下
09:50
lest we end up with
a surveillance-mad hyperautocracy
a surveillance-mad hyperautocracy
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如果唔係《駭客任務》電影
就好容易變成紀錄片
就好容易變成紀錄片
09:55
that makes The Matrix, the movie,
look like a documentary.
look like a documentary.
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（笑聲）
10:00
(Laughter)
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問題唔係資本主義可以承受
自己帶嚟嘅科技創新
自己帶嚟嘅科技創新
10:01
So the question is not
whether capitalism will survive
whether capitalism will survive
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10:05
the technological innovations
it is spawning.
it is spawning.
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最令我感興趣嘅係
10:07
The more interesting question
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資本主義會唔會畀《駭客任務》
入面嘅敵托邦取代
入面嘅敵托邦取代
10:09
is whether capitalism will be succeeded
by something resembling a Matrix dystopia
by something resembling a Matrix dystopia
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又或者好似《星際迷航》嘅社會取代
10:15
or something much closer
to a Star Trek-like society,
to a Star Trek-like society,
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《星際迷航》裏面，機械服務人類
10:19
where machines serve the humans
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而人類就擴張能量，探索星際
10:22
and the humans expend their energies
exploring the universe
exploring the universe
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同埋喺一啲類似
古雅典嘅高科技集會度
古雅典嘅高科技集會度
10:26
and indulging in long debates
about the meaning of life
about the meaning of life
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喋喋不休咁討論人生意義
10:30
in some ancient, Athenian-like,
high tech agora.
high tech agora.
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10:36
I think we can afford to be optimistic.
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我覺得我哋可以樂觀啲睇
但要擁有《星際迷航》嘅烏托邦
或者《駭客任務》嘅敵托邦
或者《駭客任務》嘅敵托邦
10:41
But what would it take,
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10:42
what would it look like
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10:44
to have this Star Trek-like utopia,
instead of the Matrix-like dystopia?
instead of the Matrix-like dystopia?
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我哋要做啲咩呢？
10:50
In practical terms,
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等我略略講下幾個例子
10:51
allow me to share just briefly,
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10:53
a couple of examples.
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企業層面上，你可以想像一個資金市場
10:55
At the level of the enterprise,
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10:56
imagine a capital market,
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10:59
where you earn capital as you work,
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喺嗰度，你只要工作就可以賺取資金
11:02
and where your capital follows you
from one job to another,
from one job to another,
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即使你轉工、轉公司
你賺嘅資金都會跟住你
11:08
from one company to another,
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11:09
and the company --
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而每間公司都係由嗰度做嘢嘅人持有
11:11
whichever one you happen
to work at at that time --
to work at at that time --
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11:14
is solely owned by those who happen
to work in it at that moment.
to work in it at that moment.
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所有收入嚟自資本同利潤
11:19
Then all income stems
from capital, from profits,
from capital, from profits,
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11:24
and the very concept
of wage labor becomes obsolete.
of wage labor becomes obsolete.
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僱傭概念最後會過時
唔會再有人擁有但冇為公司工作
11:28
No more separation between those
who own but do not work in the company
who own but do not work in the company
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11:35
and those who work
but do not own the company;
but do not own the company;
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或者冇擁有公司但為公司工作
唔會再有資本階級
同勞動階級之間嘅鬥爭
同勞動階級之間嘅鬥爭
11:38
no more tug-of-war
between capital and labor;
between capital and labor;
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投資、儲蓄之間再唔會有大嘅差距
11:42
no great gap between
investment and saving;
investment and saving;
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11:46
indeed, no towering twin peaks.
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亦再冇兩座高聳入雲嘅賃務同閑錢嘅山
11:50
At the level of the global
political economy,
political economy,
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至於全球政治型經濟層面
可以想像一下
11:53
imagine for a moment
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我哋國家貨幣同一個
11:54
that our national currencies
have a free-floating exchange rate,
have a free-floating exchange rate,
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由國際貨幣基金組織同 G20 峰會
代表全人類發行嘅全球性數碼貨幣
代表全人類發行嘅全球性數碼貨幣
11:59
with a universal,
global, digital currency,
global, digital currency,
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有自由浮動匯率
12:03
one that is issued
by the International Monetary Fund,
by the International Monetary Fund,
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12:07
the G-20,
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12:09
on behalf of all humanity.
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12:11
And imagine further
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再想像下
所有國際貿易都用呢隻貨幣進行
12:12
that all international trade
is denominated in this currency --
is denominated in this currency --
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12:17
let's call it "the cosmos,"
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我哋就稱佢為「宇宙幣」
12:19
in units of cosmos --
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12:21
with every government agreeing
to be paying into a common fund
to be paying into a common fund
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每個政府都會根據自己國家
貿易逆差或者順差
貿易逆差或者順差
12:26
a sum of cosmos units proportional
to the country's trade deficit,
to the country's trade deficit,
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向一個共同基金按比例投入宇宙幣
12:31
or indeed to a country's trade surplus.
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12:35
And imagine that that fund is utilized
to invest in green technologies,
to invest in green technologies,
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想像呢個基金用嚟投資
全世界可再生能源科技
全世界可再生能源科技
12:40
especially in parts of the world
where investment funding is scarce.
where investment funding is scarce.
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尤其投資到世界上資金唔到嘅地方
呢個唔係新構思
12:46
This is not a new idea.
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實際上，佢係由凱恩斯 1944 年
12:48
It's what, effectively,
John Maynard Keynes proposed
John Maynard Keynes proposed
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12:51
in 1944 at the Bretton Woods Conference.
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喺布列敦森林會議上提出嘅
12:56
The problem is
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問題係當時佢哋冇科技實現呢個理念
12:57
that back then, they didn't have
the technology to implement it.
the technology to implement it.
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13:00
Now we do,
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但依家我哋有啦
尤其當政治同經濟領域重新走埋一齊
13:01
especially in the context
of a reunified political-economic sphere.
of a reunified political-economic sphere.
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13:08
The world that I am describing to you
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我描述梗嘅呢個世界同時係自由嘅
13:11
is simultaneously libertarian,
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13:13
in that it prioritizes
empowered individuals,
empowered individuals,
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佢將被賜權力嘅人
同馬克思主義者擺喺首位
同馬克思主義者擺喺首位
13:18
Marxist,
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因為咁樣
13:19
since it will have confined
to the dustbin of history
to the dustbin of history
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資本同勞動階層之間嘅分別
同埋凱恩斯主義
同埋凱恩斯主義
13:22
the division between capital and labor,
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會消失喺歷史長河裏面
13:25
and Keynesian,
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13:27
global Keynesian.
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13:30
But above all else,
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但總言之
呢個係一個我哋能夠
想像到真正民主嘅世界
想像到真正民主嘅世界
13:31
it is a world in which we will be able
to imagine an authentic democracy.
to imagine an authentic democracy.
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13:37
Will such a world dawn?
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咁嘅世界會唔會出現呢？
或者我哋會淪落到好似
《黑客帝國》咁嘅反烏德邦？
《黑客帝國》咁嘅反烏德邦？
13:40
Or shall we descend
into a Matrix-like dystopia?
into a Matrix-like dystopia?
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答案就喺我哋大家
要做嘅政治決擇入面
要做嘅政治決擇入面
13:44
The answer lies in the political choice
that we shall be making collectively.
that we shall be making collectively.
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13:49
It is our choice,
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呢個係我哋嘅選擇
而我哋最好用民主方式決定
13:51
and we'd better make it democratically.
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多謝
13:54
Thank you.
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（掌聲）
13:55
(Applause)
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14:01
Bruno Giussani: Yanis ...
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主持︰瓦魯法基斯⋯
14:03
It was you who described yourself
in your bios as a libertarian Marxist.
in your bios as a libertarian Marxist.
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你喺自我介紹入面叫自己做
自由派馬克思主義者
自由派馬克思主義者
14:10
What is the relevance
of Marx's analysis today?
of Marx's analysis today?
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咁分析馬克思主義
同現今世界有咩關係呢？
同現今世界有咩關係呢？
講者：如果我投先講嘅内容
有相關嘅地方
有相關嘅地方
14:14
Yanis Varoufakis: Well, if there was
any relevance in what I just said,
any relevance in what I just said,
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咁馬克思主義就係有參考價值
14:17
then Marx is relevant.
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因為重新連起政治
同經濟領域嘅重點係
同經濟領域嘅重點係
14:18
Because the whole point of reunifying
the political and economic is --
the political and economic is --
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如果我哋唔做
14:22
if we don't do it,
269
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咁科技創新就會導致總需求大幅下跌
14:23
then technological innovation
is going to create
is going to create
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14:25
such a massive fall in aggregate demand,
271
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14:27
what Larry Summers
refers to as secular stagnation.
refers to as secular stagnation.
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亦即係 Larry Summers
所講嘅經濟長期停滯
所講嘅經濟長期停滯
隨住危機由世界某一度向外擴散
14:32
With this crisis migrating
from one part of the world,
from one part of the world,
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就好似而家咁
14:35
as it is now,
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佢唔單止令我哋嘅民主制度唔穩定
14:37
it will destabilize
not only our democracies,
not only our democracies,
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仲會沖擊唔係特别歡迎
自由民主嘅發展中國家
自由民主嘅發展中國家
14:39
but even the emerging world that is not
that keen on liberal democracy.
that keen on liberal democracy.
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如果呢個論述成立嘅話
咁馬克思主義絕對係相關嘅
咁馬克思主義絕對係相關嘅
14:44
So if this analysis holds water,
then Marx is absolutely relevant.
then Marx is absolutely relevant.
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而哈耶克論述都係
14:48
But so is Hayek,
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呢樣就係點解我係
自由派馬克思主義者
自由派馬克思主義者
14:49
that's why I'm a libertarian Marxist,
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凱恩斯都係
14:51
and so is Keynes,
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所以我自己都係矇查查
14:52
so that's why I'm totally confused.
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（笑聲）
14:54
(Laughter)
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主持：確實係
14:56
BG: Indeed, and possibly we are too, now.
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但可能我哋依家都係咁添
14:58
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
14:59
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
講者︰如果你冇覺得困惑嘅話
即係代表你冇喺度思考。得唔得？
即係代表你冇喺度思考。得唔得？
15:01
YV: If you are not confused,
you are not thinking, OK?
you are not thinking, OK?
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15:04
BG: That's a very, very Greek
philosopher kind of thing to say --
philosopher kind of thing to say --
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主持︰真係好希臘哲學家嘅講法
講者：應該係愛因斯坦至真
15:07
YV: That was Einstein, actually --
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主持：你提到新加坡同中國
15:09
BG: During your talk
you mentioned Singapore and China,
you mentioned Singapore and China,
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仲有琴晚喺演講嘉賓晚宴
15:11
and last night at the speaker dinner,
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你對西方點樣看待中國一事上
表達咗強烈嘅觀點
表達咗強烈嘅觀點
15:13
you expressed a pretty strong opinion
about how the West looks at China.
about how the West looks at China.
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你想唔想同我哋講下？
15:18
Would you like to share that?
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講者：嗯，偽善嘅面孔有好多
15:20
YV: Well, there's a great
degree of hypocrisy.
degree of hypocrisy.
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15:23
In our liberal democracies,
we have a semblance of democracy.
we have a semblance of democracy.
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而喺我哋自由民主制度之下
我哋有虛有其表嘅民主
15:27
It's because we have confined,
as I was saying in my talk,
as I was saying in my talk,
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因為正如我剛才所講
我哋框死咗民主喺政治領域裏面
15:30
democracy to the political sphere,
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以致當去到經濟領域時
15:32
while leaving the one sphere
where all the action is --
where all the action is --
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所有動作都係唔民主嘅
15:35
the economic sphere --
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15:36
a completely democracy-free zone.
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1840
15:39
In a sense,
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可以咁講
激進啲咁講
15:40
if I am allowed to be provocative,
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2200
中國今時今日就好似 19 世紀嘅英國
15:43
China today is closer to Britain
in the 19th century.
in the 19th century.
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因為記得當時
15:48
Because remember,
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1256
我哋將自由主義同民主唥埋一齊
15:49
we tend to associate
liberalism with democracy --
liberalism with democracy --
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但呢個係歷史上嘅錯誤
15:51
that's a mistake, historically.
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15:53
Liberalism, liberal,
it's like John Stuart Mill.
it's like John Stuart Mill.
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自由主義就好似
John Stuart Mill 所諗
John Stuart Mill 所諗
John Stuart Mill
對民主進程特別懷疑
對民主進程特別懷疑
15:56
John Stuart Mill was particularly
skeptical about the democratic process.
skeptical about the democratic process.
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宜家你見到嘅中國
同工業革命時期嘅英國—
同工業革命時期嘅英國—
16:00
So what you are seeing now in China
is a very similar process
is a very similar process
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尤其是由第一次到第二次
工業革命過渡期嘅英國
工業革命過渡期嘅英國
16:06
to the one that we had in Britain
during the Industrial Revolution,
during the Industrial Revolution,
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有一個非常相似嘅過程
16:09
especially the transition
from the first to the second.
from the first to the second.
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用西方社會 19 世紀
做過嘅事嚟斥責中國
做過嘅事嚟斥責中國
16:12
And to be castigating China
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16:15
for doing that which the West did
in the 19th century,
in the 19th century,
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3136
16:18
smacks of hypocrisy.
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1320
實在太虚偽啦
16:21
BG: I am sure that many people here
are wondering about your experience
are wondering about your experience
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主持：我相信在座好多人都對你今年初
出任希臘財政部長嘅經歷好奇
16:25
as the Finance Minister of Greece
earlier this year.
earlier this year.
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講者：我都知你會問呢個問題
16:27
YV: I knew this was coming.
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1381
16:29
BG: Yes.
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977365
1251
主持：冇錯
咁六個月之後，你點睇頭半年嘅經歷？
16:30
BG: Six months after,
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1336
16:32
how do you look back
at the first half of the year?
at the first half of the year?
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講者：就我個人嚟講，係非常興奮
16:35
YV: Extremely exciting,
from a personal point of view,
from a personal point of view,
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2616
16:38
and very disappointing,
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1256
亦非常失望
16:39
because we had an opportunity
to reboot the Eurozone.
to reboot the Eurozone.
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3896
因為我哋有機會重振歐元區
不單只希臘，而係歐元區
16:43
Not just Greece, the Eurozone.
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令成個區走出自滿
16:45
To move away from the complacency
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同唔再拒絕承認…
16:48
and the constant denial
that there was a massive --
that there was a massive --
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2456
16:51
and there is a massive
architectural fault line
architectural fault line
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2856
宜家有一條結構性嘅裂痕
横跨成個歐元區
横跨成個歐元區
16:54
going through the Eurozone,
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2176
16:56
which is threatening, massively,
the whole of the European Union process.
the whole of the European Union process.
328
1004400
4416
威脅到歐盟發展
我哋曾經喺希臘項目裏面
有咁嘅機會做好去
有咁嘅機會做好去
17:00
We had an opportunity
on the basis of the Greek program --
on the basis of the Greek program --
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3176
呢個希臘項目係第一個計劃
解决呢啲拒認嘅問題
解决呢啲拒認嘅問題
17:04
which by the way,
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1336
17:05
was the first program
to manifest that denial --
to manifest that denial --
331
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4376
17:09
to put it right.
332
1017800
1216
不幸嘅係
17:11
And, unfortunately,
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1216
歐元區嘅權勢
17:12
the powers in the Eurozone,
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1816
歐元集團嘅權勢
17:14
in the Eurogroup,
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1200
仍然選擇繼續否認問題存在
17:16
chose to maintain denial.
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1024079
1977
但你知道有嘢會發生
17:18
But you know what happens.
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1257
蘇聯嘅經驗已經講咗畀我哋知
17:19
This is the experience
of the Soviet Union.
of the Soviet Union.
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2056
17:21
When you try to keep alive
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如果你想令根本生存唔到嘅經濟系统
17:23
an economic system
that architecturally cannot survive,
that architecturally cannot survive,
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1031960
3879
通過政治意願或者
威權主義嘅方式繼續生存
威權主義嘅方式繼續生存
17:28
through political will
and through authoritarianism,
and through authoritarianism,
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2655
你可能成功將佢延長壽命
17:31
you may succeed in prolonging it,
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1656
但係當改變來臨時
17:32
but when change happens
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1575
事情就會好突然，而且災難性
17:34
it happens very abruptly
and catastrophically.
and catastrophically.
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2496
主持︰你希望見到咩變化？
17:37
BG: What kind of change
are you foreseeing?
are you foreseeing?
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1045000
2007
講者：嗯，無容置疑
17:39
YV: Well, there's no doubt
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1254
如果我哋唔改變歐元區嘅架構
17:40
that if we don't change
the architecture of the Eurozone,
the architecture of the Eurozone,
347
1048309
2667
歐元區係唔會有將來
17:43
the Eurozone has no future.
348
1051001
1894
主持：當你做希臘財長嗰時
17:44
BG: Did you make any mistakes
when you were Finance Minister?
when you were Finance Minister?
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2896
你有冇做過錯誤嘅决定？
講者：日日都有
17:47
YV: Every day.
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1216
主持：例如？
講者：任何人面對過去…
講者：任何人面對過去…
17:49
BG: For example?
YV: Anybody who looks back --
YV: Anybody who looks back --
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2536
17:51
(Applause)
352
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2080
（掌聲）
17:56
No, but seriously.
353
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1376
唔係，認真咁講
17:57
If there's any Minister of Finance,
or of anything else for that matter,
or of anything else for that matter,
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3576
如果有一位財政部長
或者其他部長同你講
或者其他部長同你講
佢哋工作咗六個月之後
18:01
who tells you after six months in a job,
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1069120
2216
尤其喺咁大壓力嘅情況底下
佢哋冇做錯過事嘅話
佢哋冇做錯過事嘅話
18:03
especially in such a stressful situation,
356
1071360
3696
18:07
that they have made no mistake,
they're dangerous people.
they're dangerous people.
357
1075080
2696
呢種人其實好危險
當然，我有犯過錯
18:09
Of course I made mistakes.
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1077800
1296
我最大錯誤就係喺二月尾
18:11
The greatest mistake
was to sign the application
was to sign the application
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2816
簽咗申請延長債務協議嘅申請書
18:13
for the extension of a loan agreement
360
1081960
2096
18:16
in the end of February.
361
1084080
1616
當時我以為債權方
18:17
I was imagining
362
1085720
1216
18:18
that there was a genuine interest
on the side of the creditors
on the side of the creditors
363
1086960
2976
真係有興趣去搵一個共同利益
18:21
to find common ground.
364
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1256
但事實唔係咁
18:23
And there wasn't.
365
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1216
佢哋嘅興趣係想打壓我哋嘅政府
18:24
They were simply interested
in crushing our government,
in crushing our government,
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2616
原因係佢哋唔想處理
歐元區嗰條結構裂痕
歐元區嗰條結構裂痕
18:27
just because they did not want
367
1095120
1456
18:28
to have to deal with
the architectural fault lines
the architectural fault lines
368
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3136
18:31
that were running through the Eurozone.
369
1099760
2016
同埋佢哋唔想承認
18:33
And because they didn't want to admit
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1816
佢哋過去五年對希臘
實施咗惡夢嘅計劃
實施咗惡夢嘅計劃
18:35
that for five years they were implementing
a catastrophic program in Greece.
a catastrophic program in Greece.
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3616
我哋喺失去咗三分一嘅名義 GDP
18:39
We lost one-third of our nominal GDP.
372
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2896
情況比起大蕭條時更加差
18:42
This is worse than the Great Depression.
373
1110200
1936
喺嗰班實施呢啲政策嘅債權人之中
18:44
And no one has come clean
374
1112160
1256
18:45
from the troika of lenders
that have been imposing this policy
that have been imposing this policy
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2936
無人可以置身事外到去講
「呢個係巨大嘅錯誤」
「呢個係巨大嘅錯誤」
18:48
to say, "This was a colossal mistake."
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1116400
2976
主持︰除咗上述
除咗呢啲進取嘅言論
除咗呢啲進取嘅言論
18:51
BG: Despite all this,
377
1119400
1216
18:52
and despite the aggressiveness
of the discussion,
of the discussion,
378
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2336
你似乎都同意歐洲一體化
18:55
you seem to be remaining
quite pro-European.
quite pro-European.
379
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2416
講者：絕對係
18:57
YV: Absolutely.
380
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1216
我之所以對歐盟同歐元區嘅批評
18:58
Look, my criticism
of the European Union and the Eurozone
of the European Union and the Eurozone
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4136
係因為我係一個歐洲人
19:02
comes from a person
who lives and breathes Europe.
who lives and breathes Europe.
382
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4040
19:07
My greatest fear is that
the Eurozone will not survive.
the Eurozone will not survive.
383
1135680
3576
我最大嘅恐懼係
歐元區無法生存落去
歐元區無法生存落去
因為如果歐元區唔可以繼續走落去
19:11
Because if it doesn't,
384
1139280
1456
19:12
the centrifugal forces
that will be unleashed
that will be unleashed
385
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2856
咁離心力就會被解放出嚟
就好似魔鬼咁解放
19:15
will be demonic,
386
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1696
最終會摧毀整個歐盟
19:17
and they will destroy the European Union.
387
1145360
1976
咁嘅惡果唔只對歐洲
對全球經濟都會產生嚴重影響
對全球經濟都會產生嚴重影響
19:19
And that will be catastrophic
not just for Europe
not just for Europe
388
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2416
19:21
but for the whole global economy.
389
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1616
我哋可能係世界上最大嘅經濟體
19:23
We are probably the largest
economy in the world.
economy in the world.
390
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4096
19:27
And if we allow ourselves
391
1155560
1736
如果我哋容許自己
走返 30 年代嘅舊路
走返 30 年代嘅舊路
19:29
to fall into a route
of the postmodern 1930's,
of the postmodern 1930's,
392
1157320
2816
19:32
which seems to me to be what we are doing,
393
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2656
雖然我覺得
我哋依家就行緊咁嘅路
我哋依家就行緊咁嘅路
19:34
then that will be detrimental
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1816
咁對歐洲人嘅未來
同埋歐洲以外嘅人嘅未來
同埋歐洲以外嘅人嘅未來
19:36
to the future of Europeans
and non-Europeans alike.
and non-Europeans alike.
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1164680
3416
都係不利嘅
主持：我哋真係好希望
呢點上面你係錯嘅
呢點上面你係錯嘅
19:40
BG: We definitely hope
you are wrong on that point.
you are wrong on that point.
396
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2416
瓦魯法基斯，多謝你嚟到 TED
19:42
Yanis, thank you for coming to TED.
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講者：多謝
19:44
YV: Thank you.
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1216
（掌聲）
19:45
(Applause)
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4823
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Yanis Varoufakis - Economist and professorYanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.
Why you should listen
Yanis Varoufakis describes himself as a "libertarian Marxist," although, he says, "It is not something that I volunteer to talk about much, because the very mention of Marx switches audiences off." He teaches economic theory at the University of Athens, where he challenges mainstream notions -- arguing that after the financial crash of 2008 we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.
He became widely known in the first half of 2015 when, as Minister of Finance of the newly formed Greek government, he was a leading, outspoken and much-discussed figure in the renegotiations of Greece's debt.
In May 2017, Varoufakis released Adults in The Room: My Battle With Europe’s Deep Establishment, a personal account of Europe's hidden agenda and an urgent wake-up call to renew European democracy.
Yanis Varoufakis | Speaker | TED.com