TED2016
Kang Lee: Can you really tell if a kid is lying?
李康: 你真的可以识破孩子的谎言么？
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孩子们不善于撒谎？你觉得你可以轻松识破？发展研究者李康从生理学层面研究孩子撒谎时的一系列变化。从研究两岁孩子开始，他们做了很多研究，取得了很好的成果。李解释了为什么当孩子开始撒谎时我们应该庆幸，并且介绍了可以探测我们隐藏表情的新的测谎技术。
Kang Lee - Developmental researcher
Kang Lee has devoted his career to understanding the development of social cognition and behavior. Full bio
Kang Lee has devoted his career to understanding the development of social cognition and behavior. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Hi.
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大家好
00:14
Let me ask the audience a question:
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我先问大家一个问题：
00:16
Did you ever lie as a child?
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作为一个孩子的时候您撒过谎么？
00:19
If you did, could you please
raise your hand?
raise your hand?
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如果有过 可以举手么？
00:23
Wow! This is the most honest
group of people I've ever met.
group of people I've ever met.
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天啊！这是我
遇见过的最诚实的一群人
遇见过的最诚实的一群人
00:26
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
00:28
So for the last 20 years,
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在过去的二十年，
00:30
I've been studying
how children learn to tell lies.
how children learn to tell lies.
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我一直在研究孩子们如何学会撒谎。
00:33
And today, I'm going to share with you
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今天我将与给分享
00:36
some of the discoveries we have made.
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我们的一些成果。
00:38
But to begin, I'm going to tell you
a story from Mr. Richard Messina,
a story from Mr. Richard Messina,
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不过首先我想先讲一个
理查德·梅西纳先生的故事。
理查德·梅西纳先生的故事。
00:43
who is my friend and an elementary
school principal.
school principal.
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他是我的朋友
也是一名小学校长。
也是一名小学校长。
00:47
He got a phone call one day.
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一天他接到了一通电话
00:51
The caller says,
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来电的人说，
00:52
"Mr. Messina, my son Johnny
will not come to school today
will not come to school today
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“梅西纳先生，我的孩子乔尼
今天不去学校了
今天不去学校了
00:56
because he's sick."
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因为他生病了。“
00:58
Mr. Messina asks,
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梅西纳先生问道
01:00
"Who am I speaking to, please?"
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”请问您是谁？“
01:02
And the caller says,
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来电的人说：
01:04
"I am my father."
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”我是我爸爸。“
01:05
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
01:10
So this story --
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所以这个故事--
01:11
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
01:13
sums up very nicely
three common beliefs we have
three common beliefs we have
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很好的总结了三个我们
01:17
about children and lying.
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对于孩子撒谎的常识。
01:20
One, children only come to tell lies
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第一，孩子通常在上小学后
01:24
after entering elementary school.
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开始撒谎。
01:27
Two, children are poor liars.
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第二，孩子不会撒谎
01:29
We adults can easily detect their lies.
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成人可以简单地识破他们。
01:32
And three, if children lie
at a very young age,
at a very young age,
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第三，如果孩子很早就开始撒谎
01:36
there must be some
character flaws with them,
character flaws with them,
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那么他们一定有一些人格缺陷，
01:39
and they are going to become
pathological liars for life.
pathological liars for life.
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并且一生都将是病态的撒谎者。
01:44
Well, it turns out
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然而结果是，
01:46
all of the three beliefs are wrong.
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这三个认识都是错的
01:50
We have been playing guessing games
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之前我们一直和全世界的
01:53
with children all over the world.
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孩子们一起玩竞猜游戏。
01:55
Here is an example.
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这里有一个例子。
01:56
So in this game, we asked children
to guess the numbers on the cards.
to guess the numbers on the cards.
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在这个游戏中，
我们请孩子们猜测卡片上的数字。
我们请孩子们猜测卡片上的数字。
02:01
And we tell them if they win the game,
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并告诉他们如果他们猜中了，
02:04
they are going to get a big prize.
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他们会得到丰厚的奖励。
02:07
But in the middle of the game,
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在游戏的中间，
02:09
we make an excuse and leave the room.
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我们会借故离开。
02:13
And before we leave the room,
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离开前会告诉孩子们
02:15
we tell them not to peek at the cards.
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不要去偷偷看卡片。
02:19
Of course,
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当然了，
02:20
we have hidden cameras in the room
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隐藏的摄像头在房间
02:23
to watch their every move.
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观察孩子们的一举一动。
02:26
Because the desire
to win the game is so strong,
to win the game is so strong,
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因为孩子太想赢这个游戏，
02:29
more than 90 percent of children will peek
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超过90%的孩子在我们离开后马上
02:33
as soon as we leave the room.
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偷偷看了卡片。
02:34
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
02:37
The crucial question is:
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关键的问题是：
02:39
When we return and ask the children
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当然们回来并且问孩子们
02:41
whether or not they have peeked,
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他们是否偷看了卡片时，
02:44
will the children who peeked confess
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那些偷看了卡片的孩子
02:47
or lie about their transgression?
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会承认他们违反了游戏规则么？
02:51
We found that regardless
of gender, country, religion,
of gender, country, religion,
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我们发现无论
性别 国籍 宗教信仰
性别 国籍 宗教信仰
02:56
at two years of age,
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30%的2岁孩子
02:59
30 percent lie,
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撒谎了。
03:01
70 percent tell the truth
about their transgression.
about their transgression.
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70%承认了他们违反游戏规则。
03:04
At three years of age,
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三岁的孩子中，
03:07
50 percent lie and 50 percent
tell the truth.
tell the truth.
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撒谎的人占了50%。
03:11
At four years of age,
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四岁的孩子
03:13
more than 80 percent lie.
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超过80%都在撒谎。
03:16
And after four years of age,
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大于四岁的孩子
03:18
most children lie.
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绝大部分都在撒谎。
03:21
So as you can see,
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如您所见，
03:22
lying is really a typical part
of development.
of development.
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撒谎是成长典型的一部分。
03:26
And some children begin to tell lies
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很多孩子在2岁的时候
03:28
as young as two years of age.
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就已经学会了撒谎。
03:32
So now, let's take a closer look
at the younger children.
at the younger children.
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现在我们仔细研究小孩子。
03:37
Why do some but not all
young children lie?
young children lie?
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为什么不是所有的孩子都撒谎？
03:42
In cooking, you need good ingredients
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在烹饪领域想做出好的食物
03:45
to cook good food.
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需要好的原料。
03:47
And good lying requires
two key ingredients.
two key ingredients.
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一个好的谎言需要两个关键的原料。
03:53
The first key ingredient
is theory of mind,
is theory of mind,
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第一个是心智理论，
03:57
or the mind-reading ability.
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换言之读心的能力。
03:59
Mind reading is the ability to know
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读心能力是一种
04:01
that different people have
different knowledge about the situation
different knowledge about the situation
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知道相同情况下
不同的人知道不同的事情的能力，
不同的人知道不同的事情的能力，
04:06
and the ability to differentiate
between what I know
between what I know
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是一种
可以区分我知道什么
可以区分我知道什么
04:10
and what you know.
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和你知道什么的能力。
04:11
Mind reading is important for lying
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读心在撒谎时能力很重要
04:14
because the basis of lying is that I know
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因为撒谎从根本上说
04:18
you don't know
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就是我知道你不知道
04:19
what I know.
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我知道。
04:20
Therefore, I can lie to you.
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因此我的谎言成功了。
04:23
The second key ingredient
for good lying is self-control.
for good lying is self-control.
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第二个撒谎的
关键因素是自我控制
关键因素是自我控制
04:27
It is the ability to control your speech,
your facial expression
your facial expression
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控制语言 控制面部表情
04:32
and your body language,
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控制身体动作。
04:33
so that you can tell a convincing lie.
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这样的谎言才让人信服。
04:36
And we found that those young children
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我们发现那些小孩子中
04:40
who have more advanced mind-reading
and self-control abilities
and self-control abilities
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读心能力和自我控制能力更强的
04:45
tell lies earlier
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更早开始说谎
04:47
and are more sophisticated liars.
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也成为了更老练的撒谎者。
04:51
As it turns out, these two abilities
are also essential for all of us
are also essential for all of us
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事实证明 这两种能力
04:57
to function well in our society.
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在社会中也是至关重要的。
05:00
In fact, deficits in mind-reading
and self-control abilities
and self-control abilities
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并且读心能力和自我控制能力不足
05:05
are associated with serious
developmental problems,
developmental problems,
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经常和一些严重的
发展问题 比如多动症和自闭症
发展问题 比如多动症和自闭症
05:08
such as ADHD and autism.
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联系在一起。
05:13
So if you discover your two-year-old
is telling his or her first lie,
is telling his or her first lie,
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所以当你发现你二岁的孩子开始撒谎
05:19
instead of being alarmed,
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不要惊慌
05:21
you should celebrate --
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你应该庆幸
05:22
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
05:24
because it signals that your child
has arrived at a new milestone
has arrived at a new milestone
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这意味着你的孩子进入了
典型发展的
典型发展的
05:29
of typical development.
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新的里程碑。
05:33
Now, are children poor liars?
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那么 孩子不会撒谎么？
05:36
Do you think you can easily
detect their lies?
detect their lies?
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你可以轻易的识破他们的谎言么？
05:40
Would you like to give it a try?
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你愿意试试么？
05:42
Yes? OK.
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愿意？好的
05:44
So I'm going to show you two videos.
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我将要给各位看两段视频。
05:47
In the videos,
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视频中
05:48
the children are going to respond
to a researcher's question,
to a researcher's question,
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孩子们将会回答研究者的问题
05:51
"Did you peek?"
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“你偷看了卡片么？”
05:52
So try to tell me
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试着告诉我
05:54
which child is lying
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哪一个孩子撒谎
05:55
and which child is telling the truth.
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那一个孩子说真话。
05:58
Here's child number one.
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这是第一个孩子。
06:00
Are you ready?
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准备好了么？
06:03
(Video) Adult: Did you peek? Child: No.
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（视频）-你撒谎了么？-没有。
06:05
Kang Lee: And this is child number two.
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这是第二个孩子
06:09
(Video) Adult: Did you peek? Child: No.
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（视频）-你撒谎了么？-没有。
06:13
KL: OK, if you think
child number one is lying,
child number one is lying,
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认为第一个孩子撒谎的，
06:16
please raise your hand.
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请举手。
06:20
And if you think child number two
is lying, please raise your hand.
is lying, please raise your hand.
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认为第二个孩子撒谎的，
请举手
请举手
06:25
OK, so as a matter of fact,
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事实上，
06:28
child number one is telling the truth,
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第一个孩子说的是真话
06:31
child number two is lying.
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第二个孩子在撒谎
06:34
Looks like many of you are terrible
detectors of children's lies.
detectors of children's lies.
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看起来大家完全无法识破
孩子的谎言。
孩子的谎言。
06:37
(Laughter)
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（笑声)
06:39
Now, we have played similar kinds of games
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现在我们给很多
06:43
with many, many adults
from all walks of life.
from all walks of life.
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从事各种行业的成年人
06:48
And we show them many videos.
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播放类似的视频。
06:51
In half of the videos, the children lied.
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视频中一半的孩子撒谎了。
06:53
In the other half of the videos,
the children told the truth.
the children told the truth.
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另一半的孩子讲了真话。
06:58
And let's find out
how these adults performed.
how these adults performed.
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让我们看看成人识破谎言的表现。
07:02
Because there are as many liars
as truth tellers,
as truth tellers,
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因为说真话和假话的孩子各一半，
07:06
if you guess randomly,
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如果你随机的猜，
07:08
there's a 50 percent chance
you're going to get it right.
you're going to get it right.
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你的正确率差不多50%。
07:12
So if your accuracy is around 50 percent,
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所以如果你的准确率在50%左右，
07:16
it means you are a terrible detector
of children's lies.
of children's lies.
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说明你看不出孩子的谎言。
07:20
So let's start with undergrads
and law school students,
and law school students,
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我们先从和小孩子的交集
07:24
who typically have
limited experience with children.
limited experience with children.
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有限的本科生和法学院学生开始。
07:30
No, they cannot detect children's lies.
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不 他们看不出孩子撒谎了，
07:32
Their performance is around chance.
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他们只是随机的猜测。
07:34
Now how about social workers
and child-protection lawyers,
and child-protection lawyers,
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那么每天和孩子打交道的
07:39
who work with children on a daily basis?
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社会工作者和保护儿童的律师
做得如何呢？
做得如何呢？
07:42
Can they detect children's lies?
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他们可以分辨孩子的谎言么？
07:45
No, they cannot.
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不他们不能。
07:46
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
07:47
What about judges,
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法官呢？
07:49
customs officers
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海关官员，
07:51
and police officers,
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或者警察呢？
07:53
who deal with liars on a daily basis?
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他们每天都在面对谎言，
07:55
Can they detect children's lies?
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他们可以看出孩子撒谎么？
07:58
No, they cannot.
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不他们不能。
08:00
What about parents?
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父母呢？
08:01
Can parents detect other children's lies?
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父母可以看出别的孩子撒谎么？
08:05
No, they cannot.
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不他们不能。
08:07
What about, can parents
detect their own children's lies?
detect their own children's lies?
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那么父母可以看出
自己的孩子撒谎么？
自己的孩子撒谎么？
08:13
No, they cannot.
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不还是不能。
08:14
(Laughter) (Applause)
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（笑声）（掌声）
08:17
So now you may ask
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现在你可能会问
08:20
why children's lies
are so difficult to detect.
are so difficult to detect.
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为什么孩子的谎言不容易被识破?
08:24
Let me illustrate this
with my own son, Nathan.
with my own son, Nathan.
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让我用我的儿子内森来说明。
08:27
This is his facial expression
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这是他撒谎时
08:30
when he lies.
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的面部表情。
08:31
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:33
So when children lie,
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所以孩子撒谎是
08:35
their facial expression
is typically neutral.
is typically neutral.
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他们的面部表情是很自然的。
08:39
However, behind this neutral expression,
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然而在自然的表情背后
08:42
the child is actually experiencing
a lot of emotions,
a lot of emotions,
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孩子在体验一系列的感情
08:45
such as fear, guilt, shame
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有害怕，内疚，羞耻
08:49
and maybe a little bit of liar's delight.
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也许还有一点骗人的喜悦。
08:52
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:55
Unfortunately, such emotions
are either fleeting or hidden.
are either fleeting or hidden.
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可是这些表情或一闪而过
或被隐藏的很好
或被隐藏的很好
09:00
Therefore, it's mostly invisible to us.
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对于我们来说很难捕捉。
09:03
So in the last five years,
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所以过去的五年中
09:05
we have been trying to figure out a way
to reveal these hidden emotions.
to reveal these hidden emotions.
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我们一直在寻找
挖掘隐藏的表情的办法。
挖掘隐藏的表情的办法。
09:08
Then we made a discovery.
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后来我们有了发现。
09:11
We know that underneath our facial skin,
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我们知道在脸的皮肤下面
09:14
there's a rich network of blood vessels.
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是丰富的血管网络。
09:17
When we experience different emotions,
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在我们经历不同的情感的时候，
09:20
our facial blood flow changes subtly.
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我们面部血液流动也会稍微改变。
09:23
And these changes are regulated
by the autonomic system
by the autonomic system
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这些改变受自动系统的控制
09:27
that is beyond our conscious control.
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人为无法刻意改变。
09:30
By looking at facial blood flow changes,
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通过观察面部血液流动变化，
09:34
we can reveal people's hidden emotions.
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我们可以发现人们隐藏的表情。
09:37
Unfortunately, such emotion-related
facial blood flow changes
facial blood flow changes
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不过这种情感相关的
血液流动
血液流动
09:42
are too subtle to detect by our naked eye.
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太过于微小以至于肉眼无法看到。
09:45
So to help us reveal
people's facial emotions,
people's facial emotions,
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所以我们设计了新的图像技术
09:49
we have developed a new imaging technology
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来帮助我们捕捉人们的面部表情。
09:52
we call "transdermal optical imaging."
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我们叫它“透皮光学成像”。
09:56
To do so, we use a regular
video camera to record people
video camera to record people
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我们用普通的镜头记录
10:00
when they experience
various hidden emotions.
various hidden emotions.
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正在经历着各种隐藏的感情的人
10:04
And then, using our image
processing technology,
processing technology,
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然后使用图像处理技术
10:08
we can extract transdermal images
of facial blood flow changes.
of facial blood flow changes.
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我们可以通过观察经皮视频，
10:16
By looking at transdermal video images,
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提取面部血液流动的经皮图像。
10:20
now we can easily see
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现在我们可以清楚地看到
10:23
facial blood flow changes associated
with the various hidden emotions.
with the various hidden emotions.
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由于各种隐藏的表情
造成的血液流动。
造成的血液流动。
10:29
And using this technology,
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使用这个技术
10:31
we can now reveal the hidden emotions
associated with lying,
associated with lying,
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我们可以判断
与撒谎相关的隐藏表情
与撒谎相关的隐藏表情
10:36
and therefore detect people's lies.
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进而识破人们的谎言。
10:39
We can do so noninvasively,
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我们可以在
不侵害被试者的情况下
不侵害被试者的情况下
10:41
remotely, inexpensively,
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远程地 廉价地进行操作
10:44
with an accuracy at about 85 percent,
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并且有85%的准确率，
10:48
which is far better than chance level.
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比随机要好得多。
10:51
And in addition, we discovered
a Pinocchio effect.
a Pinocchio effect.
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此外我们发现了匹诺曹现象。
10:56
No, not this Pinocchio effect.
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不不不不是这个现象。
10:58
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
10:59
This is the real Pinocchio effect.
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这是真的匹诺曹现象。
11:01
When people lie,
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当人们撒谎时，
11:03
the facial blood flow
on the cheeks decreases,
on the cheeks decreases,
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脸颊的面部血液流动减少
11:06
and the facial blood flow
on the nose increases.
on the nose increases.
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鼻子的血液流动增加。
11:11
Of course, lying is not the only situation
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当然撒谎并不是
11:14
that will evoke our hidden emotions.
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激发隐藏表情的唯一情况。
11:17
So then we asked ourselves,
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所以我们思考，
11:19
in addition to detecting lies,
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除了测试谎言之外，
11:22
how can our technology be used?
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这项技术还可以用来做什么？
11:25
One application is in education.
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在教育领域可以应用这门技术。
11:28
For example, using this technology,
we can help this mathematics teacher
we can help this mathematics teacher
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比如使用这项技术可以帮助
这位数学老师
这位数学老师
11:33
to identify the student in his classroom
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发现那些教室里对于他讲的内容
11:36
who may experience high anxiety
about the topic he's teaching
about the topic he's teaching
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深感焦虑的学生。
11:40
so that he can help him.
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这可以很好地帮助老师。
11:43
And also we can use this in health care.
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这门技术同时可以用在健康护理上。
11:46
For example, every day I Skype my parents,
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比如 每天我和离我几千公里
11:49
who live thousands of miles away.
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的父母Skype，
11:52
And using this technology,
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使用这门技术，
11:54
I can not only find out
what's going on in their lives
what's going on in their lives
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我不仅可以知道他们那里发生了什么
11:57
but also simultaneously monitor
their heart rate, their stress level,
their heart rate, their stress level,
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同时我可以监测他们的心率 紧张程度
12:03
their mood and whether or not
they are experiencing pain.
they are experiencing pain.
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他们的情绪或者是否处于痛苦之中。
12:07
And perhaps in the future,
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也许将来
12:09
their risks for heart attack
or hypertension.
or hypertension.
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心脏病和高血压的风险
也可以被检测出来
也可以被检测出来
12:13
And you may ask:
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也许你会问：
12:15
Can we use this also to reveal
politicians' emotions?
politicians' emotions?
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我们可以识破政客的表情么？
12:20
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
12:22
For example, during a debate.
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比如在辩论中的表情
12:25
Well, the answer is yes.
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是的我们可以。
12:27
Using TV footage,
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使用电视新闻片段，
12:29
we could detect
the politicians' heart rate,
the politicians' heart rate,
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我们可以检测政客的心率，
12:33
mood and stress,
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情绪紧张程度，
12:35
and perhaps in the future,
whether or not they are lying to us.
whether or not they are lying to us.
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也许将来也可以判断他们是否在说谎。
12:39
We can also use this
in marketing research,
in marketing research,
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这项技术也可以用于市场调查，
12:42
for example, to find out
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比如去探究
12:44
whether or not people like
certain consumer products.
certain consumer products.
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人们喜不喜欢特定的消费产品。
12:49
We can even use it in dating.
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我们甚至可以用在约会上。
12:51
So for example,
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比如，
12:53
if your date is smiling at you,
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如果你的约会对象对你笑，
12:55
this technology can help you to determine
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这门技术可以帮助你判断
12:58
whether she actually likes you
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她是真的喜欢你
13:01
or she is just trying to be nice to you.
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还是只是努力对你友善一些。
13:03
And in this case,
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在这个照片中，
13:05
she is just trying to be nice to you.
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她只是想对他友善一点。
13:07
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
13:11
So transdermal optical imaging technology
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所以透皮光学成像技术
13:14
is at a very early stage of development.
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仅仅处于起步阶段。
13:17
Many new applications will come about
that we don't know today.
that we don't know today.
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将来会有更多
意想不到的新应用出现。
意想不到的新应用出现。
13:22
However, one thing I know for sure
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然而我坚信
13:25
is that lying will never
be the same again.
be the same again.
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研究谎言的未来
将会因此变得不同。
将会因此变得不同。
13:28
Thank you very much.
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谢谢大家
（中文）谢谢。
13:29
Xiè xie.
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13:31
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Kang Lee - Developmental researcherKang Lee has devoted his career to understanding the development of social cognition and behavior.
Why you should listen
With an international team based at the University of Toronto, Kang Lee investigates the neurological and social basis of emerging social behaviors in young children. His two-pronged research focuses first on how and when children develop the capacity to lie, to detect liesand to feel guilty about it afterwards.
The second focus of Lee's research is facial recognition, which has led to revelations of when children develop the ability to distinguish races and has helped explain why some people occasionally see Jesus' face on a piece of toast.
Kang Lee | Speaker | TED.com