TEDGlobal 2010
Julian Assange: Why the world needs WikiLeaks
Julian Assange: Zakaj svet potrebuje WikiLeaks
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Kontroverzna spletna stran WikiLeaks zbira in objavlja strogo zaupne dokumente in video posnetke. Ustanovitelj Julian Assange, ki ga baje iščejo ameriške oblasti, da bi ga zaslišale, govori s Chrisom Andersonom iz TED o tem, kako stran deluje, kaj je dosegla -- in kaj mu daje zagon. Intervju vsebuje nazoren posnetek nedavnega zračnega napada na Bagdad.
Julian Assange - Whistleblower
Internet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct. Full bio
Internet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Chris Anderson: Julian, welcome.
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Chris Anderson: Julian, dobrodošel.
00:17
It's been reported that WikiLeaks, your baby,
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Pravijo, da je WikiLeaks, tvoj otrok, ...
00:19
has, in the last few years
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v zadnjih nekaj letih
00:21
has released more classified documents
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objavil več zaupnih dokumentov
00:24
than the rest of the world's media combined.
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kot vsi ostali svetovni mediji skupaj.
00:26
Can that possibly be true?
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Ali je to sploh lahko res?
00:28
Julian Assange: Yeah, can it possibly be true?
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Julian Assange: Ja, a je to sploh lahko res?
00:30
It's a worry -- isn't it? -- that the rest of the world's media
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To je zaskrbljujoče -- kajne? -- da preostali svetovni mediji
00:33
is doing such a bad job
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svoje delo opravljajo tako slabo,
00:35
that a little group of activists
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da je majhna skupina aktivistov
00:37
is able to release more
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sposobna objaviti več
00:39
of that type of information
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tovrstnih informacij
00:41
than the rest of the world press combined.
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kot preostanek svetovnega tiska skupaj.
00:43
CA: How does it work?
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CA: Kako deluje?
00:45
How do people release the documents?
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Kako ljudje odstopijo dokumente?
00:48
And how do you secure their privacy?
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In kako zavarujete njihovo zasebnost?
00:51
JA: So these are -- as far as we can tell --
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JA: Torej, gre za -- kolikor vemo --
00:53
classical whistleblowers,
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klasične žvižgače (whistleblowers).
00:55
and we have a number of ways for them
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In za njih imamo več načinov,
00:57
to get information to us.
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kako spraviti informacije do nas.
00:59
So we use this state-of-the-art encryption
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Tako uporabljamo najsodobnejše kodiranje,
01:01
to bounce stuff around the Internet, to hide trails,
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da zadeve premetavamo po internetu, da skrijemo sledi,
01:03
pass it through legal jurisdictions
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jih pošljemo skozi pravosodja
01:05
like Sweden and Belgium
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kot sta švedsko in belgijsko,
01:08
to enact those legal protections.
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da bi uveljavljali njihovo pravno zaščito.
01:12
We get information in the mail,
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Informacije dobimo po elektronski pošti,
01:14
the regular postal mail,
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navadni pošti,
01:17
encrypted or not,
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kodirane ali ne,
01:19
vet it like a regular news organization, format it --
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jih skrbno pregledamo kot običajna novičarska organizacija, jih oblikujemo --
01:22
which is sometimes something that's quite hard to do,
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kar je včasih nekaj, kar je zelo težko narediti,
01:25
when you're talking about
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ko govorimo o
01:27
giant databases of information --
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velikanskih podatkovnih bazah informacij --
01:29
release it to the public
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jih damo v javnost
01:31
and then defend ourselves
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in se potem branimo
01:33
against the inevitable legal and political attacks.
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pred neizogibnimi pravnimi in političnimi napadi.
01:36
CA: So you make an effort to ensure
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CA: Torej se trudite zagotoviti,
01:38
the documents are legitimate,
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da so dokumenti pravi.
01:40
but you actually
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Vendar dejansko
01:42
almost never know who the identity of the source is?
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skoraj nikoli ne veste, kakšna je identiteta vira.
01:45
JA: That's right, yeah. Very rarely do we ever know,
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JA: To je res, ja. Zelo redko to vemo.
01:49
and if we find out at some stage
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In če v kateri fazi vseeno izvemo,
01:52
then we destroy that information as soon as possible.
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to informacijo uničimo takoj, ko je mogoče.
01:55
(Phone ring) God damn it.
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(telefon zvoni) Prekleto.
01:57
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
02:01
CA: I think that's the CIA asking what the code is
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CA: Mislim, da je to CIA, ki jo zanima šifra
02:03
for a TED membership.
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za članstvo v TED.
02:05
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
02:08
So let's take [an] example, actually.
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Torej, vzemimo dejanski primer.
02:10
This is something
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To je nekaj, kar ste
02:12
you leaked a few years ago.
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spustili v javnost pred nekaj leti.
02:14
If we can have this document up ...
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Če lahko pokažete tale dokument
02:16
So this was a story in Kenya a few years ago.
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Torej, to je bila zgodba v Keniji pred nekaj leti.
02:18
Can you tell us what you leaked and what happened?
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Nam lahko poveš, kaj ste objavili in kaj se je zgodilo?
02:21
JA: So this is the Kroll Report.
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JA: Torej, to je Krollovo poročilo.
02:23
This was a secret intelligence report
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To je bilo tajno obveščevalno poročilo,
02:26
commissioned by the Kenyan government
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ki ga je naročila kenijska vlada
02:28
after its election in 2004.
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po izvolitvi leta 2004.
02:31
Prior to 2004, Kenya was ruled
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Pred 2004 je Keniji vladal
02:33
by Daniel arap Moi
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Daniel arap Moi,
02:35
for about 18 years.
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in sicer okoli 18 let.
02:37
He was a soft dictator of Kenya.
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Bil je blag diktator Kenije.
02:40
And when Kibaki got into power --
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Ko pa je na oblast prišel Kibaki --
02:42
through a coalition of forces that were trying
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skozi koalicijo sil, ki so poskušale
02:44
to clean up corruption in Kenya --
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odpraviti korupcijo v Keniji --
02:46
they commissioned this report,
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so naročili to poročilo;
02:48
spent about two million pounds
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porabili so okoli dva milijona funtov (2,4 mio €)
02:50
on this and an associated report.
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za to in povezano poročilo.
02:52
And then the government sat on it
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Potem pa je vlada sedela na njem
02:55
and used it for political leverage on Moi,
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in ga uporabila kot politični vzvod proti Moi-ju,
02:57
who was the richest man --
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ki je bil najbogatejši človek --
02:59
still is the richest man -- in Kenya.
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še vedno je najbogatejši človek -- v Keniji.
03:02
It's the Holy Grail of Kenyan journalism.
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Je sveti gral kenijskega novinarstva.
03:05
So I went there in 2007,
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Tako sem šel leta 2007 tja
03:08
and we managed to get hold of this
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in uspeli smo ga dobiti
03:10
just prior to the election --
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ravno pred volitvami --
03:12
the national election, December 28.
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državnimi volitvami, 28. decembra.
03:17
When we released that report,
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Ko smo poročilo objavili,
03:20
we did so three days after the new president, Kibaki,
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smo ga objavili tri dni po tem, ko se je novi predsednik, Kibaki,
03:23
had decided to pal up with
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odločil, da se spajdaši s
03:25
the man that he was going to clean out,
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človekom, kateremu je želel vse pobrati,
03:27
Daniel arap Moi,
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Danielom arapom Moi-jem.
03:29
so this report then
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To poročilo je tako
03:32
became a dead albatross
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postalo mlinski kamen
03:34
around President Kibaki's neck.
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okoli vratu samega predsednika Kibakija.
03:38
CA: And -- I mean, to cut a long story short --
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CA: In -- mislim, da povemo na kratko --
03:41
word of the report leaked into Kenya,
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beseda o poročilu je pricurljala v Kenijo,
03:44
not from the official media, but indirectly,
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ne iz uradnih medijev, temveč posredno.
03:47
and in your opinion, it actually shifted the election.
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In po vašem mnenju je to dejansko spremenilo volitve.
03:50
JA: Yeah. So this became front page of the Guardian
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JA: Ja. To je pristalo na naslovnici Guardiana,
03:53
and was then printed in all the surrounding countries of Kenya,
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potem pa so jo natisnili v vseh sosednjih državah Kenije,
03:56
in Tanzanian and South African press.
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v tanzanijskem in južnoafriškem tisku.
03:59
And so it came in from the outside.
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Tako je torej prišlo od zunaj.
04:01
And that, after a couple of days,
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In to je po nekaj dneh
04:03
made the Kenyan press feel safe to talk about it.
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opogumilo kenijski tisk, da je začel govoriti o tem.
04:05
And it ran for 20 nights straight on Kenyan TV,
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Na kenijski TV so o tem govorili 20 noči zaporedoma
04:08
shifted the vote by 10 percent,
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in glede na kenijsko obveščevalno poročilo
04:11
according to a Kenyan intelligence report,
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je to premaknilo glasove za 10 odstotkov,
04:13
which changed the result of the election.
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kar je spremenilo rezultat volitev.
04:15
CA: Wow, so your leak
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CA: Uau, torej je vaša objava
04:17
really substantially changed the world?
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v resnici bistveno spremenila svet?
04:19
JA: Yep.
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JA: Jap.
04:21
(Applause)
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(aplavz)
04:25
CA: Here's -- We're going to just show
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CA: Tukaj je -- pokazali bomo samo
04:27
a short clip from this
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kratek izsek iz tega video posnetka
04:30
Baghdad airstrike video.
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letalskega napada na Bagdad.
04:32
The video itself is longer,
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Video sám je daljši.
04:34
but here's a short clip.
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Ampak tukaj je kratek izsek.
04:36
This is -- this is intense material, I should warn you.
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To je -- opozoriti vas moram, da gre za nasilno gradivo.
04:39
Radio: ... just fuckin', once you get on 'em just open 'em up.
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Radio: ... samo jebeno, ko boš enkrat na njih, jih samo odpri.
04:42
I see your element, uh, got about four Humvees, uh, out along ...
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Vidim tvoj element, ee, imamo približno štiri Humveeje, ee, zunaj ob ...
04:46
You're clear. All right. Firing.
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Imaš dovoljenje. Prav. Streljam.
04:49
Let me know when you've got them. Let's shoot.
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Sporoči mi, ko jih boš zadel. Streljajmo.
04:52
Light 'em all up.
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Vse jih vžgi.
04:54
C'mon, fire!
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Daj, streljaj!
04:56
(Machine gun fire)
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(streljanje strojnice)
04:59
Keep shoot 'n. Keep shoot 'n.
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Nadaljuj s streljanjem. Nadaljuj s streljanjem.
05:02
(Machine gun fire)
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(streljanje strojnice)
05:05
Keep shoot 'n.
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Nadaljuj s streljanjem.
05:08
Hotel ... Bushmaster Two-Six, Bushmaster Two-Six,
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Hotel ... Bushmaster Dva-šest, Bushmaster Dva-šest,
05:10
we need to move, time now!
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premakniti se moramo, zdaj!
05:12
All right, we just engaged all eight individuals.
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Prav, pravkar smo napadli vseh osem posameznikov.
05:15
Yeah, we see two birds [helicopters], and we're still firing.
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Ja, vidimo dve ptici [helikopterja] in še vedno streljamo.
05:18
Roger. I got 'em.
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Razumem. Zadel sem jih.
05:20
Two-Six, this is Two-Six, we're mobile.
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Dva-šest, to je Dva-šest, premikamo se.
05:22
Oops, I'm sorry. What was going on?
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Ups, žal mi je. Kaj se je dogajalo?
05:24
God damn it, Kyle. All right, hahaha. I hit 'em.
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Prekleto, Kyle. Prav, hahaha. Zadel sem jih.
05:29
CA: So, what was the impact of that?
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CA: Torej, kakšen vtis je pustilo tole?
05:32
JA: The impact on the people who worked on it
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JA: Vtis na ljudi, ki so delali na tem,
05:35
was severe.
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je bil močan.
05:37
We ended up sending two people to Baghdad
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Na koncu smo poslali dva človeka v Bagdad,
05:39
to further research that story.
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da bi dodatno raziskala to zgodbo.
05:41
So this is just the first of three attacks
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To je samo prvi od treh napadov,
05:44
that occurred in that scene.
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ki so se zgodili na tem prizorišču.
05:46
CA: So, I mean, 11 people died in that attack, right,
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CA: Torej, mislim, 11 ljudi je umrlo v tem napadu, kajne,
05:48
including two Reuters employees?
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vključno z dvema Reutersovima zaposlenima?
05:50
JA: Yeah. Two Reuters employees,
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JA: Ja. Dva Reutersova zaposlena,
05:52
two young children were wounded.
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dva majhna otroka sta bila ranjena.
05:55
There were between 18 and 26 people killed all together.
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Vse skupaj je bilo ubitih med 18 in 26 ljudi.
05:58
CA: And releasing this caused
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CA: In objava tega je povzročila
06:00
widespread outrage.
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vsesplošno ogorčenje.
06:02
What was the key element of this
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Kaj misliš, kaj je bil tisti ključni del tega,
06:04
that actually caused the outrage, do you think?
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ki je dejansko povzročil ogorčenje?
06:07
JA: I don't know. I guess people can see
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JA: Ne vem, mislim, da ljudje lahko vidijo
06:09
the gross disparity in force.
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veliko nesorazmerje moči.
06:12
You have guys walking in a relaxed way down the street,
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Imate moške, ki sproščeno hodijo po ulici,
06:14
and then an Apache helicopter sitting up at one kilometer
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in potem helikopter Apache na višini enega kilometra,
06:17
firing 30-millimeter cannon shells
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ki strelja 30-milimetrske naboje
06:19
on everyone --
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na vse --
06:21
looking for any excuse to do so --
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iščoč vsakršen izgovor za to --
06:24
and killing people rescuing the wounded.
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in ubija ljudi, ki rešujejo ranjene.
06:26
And there was two journalists involved that clearly weren't insurgents
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In udeležena sta bila dva novinarja, ki nedvomno nista bila upornika,
06:29
because that's their full-time job.
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ker je to njuna redna zaposlitev.
06:33
CA: I mean, there's been this U.S. intelligence analyst,
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CA: Mislim, nek analitik ameriške obveščevalne službe,
06:36
Bradley Manning, arrested,
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Bradley Manning, je bil aretiran.
06:38
and it's alleged that he confessed in a chat room
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In baje je v nekem spletnem klepetu priznal,
06:41
to have leaked this video to you,
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da je on spravil video do vas
06:44
along with 280,000
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skupaj z 280.000
06:46
classified U.S. embassy cables.
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zaupnimi telegrami ameriškega veleposlaništva.
06:48
I mean, did he?
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Mislim, a je?
06:51
JA: We have denied receiving those cables.
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JA: No, mi smo zanikali, da bi dobili te telegrame.
06:53
He has been charged,
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Bil je obtožen
06:55
about five days ago,
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pred približno petimi dnevi,
06:57
with obtaining 150,000 cables
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da si je pridobil 150.000 telegramov
07:00
and releasing 50.
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in jih 50 dal na razpolago.
07:02
Now, we had released,
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No, mi smo v začetku leta
07:05
early in the year,
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objavili telegram
07:07
a cable from the Reykjavik U.S. embassy,
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iz ameriškega veleposlaništva v Reykjaviku.
07:11
but this is not necessarily connected.
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Ampak to ni nujno povezano.
07:13
I mean, I was a known visitor of that embassy.
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Mislim, bil sem reden obiskovalec tistega veleposlaništva.
07:15
CA: I mean, if you did receive thousands
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CA: Mislim, če ste prejeli tisoče
07:17
of U.S. embassy diplomatic cables ...
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diplomatskih telegramov ameriškega veleposlaništva ...
07:20
JA: We would have released them. (CA: You would?)
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JA: Bi jih objavili. (CA: Bi jih?)
07:22
JA: Yeah. (CA: Because?)
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JA: Ja. (CA: Ker?)
07:25
JA: Well, because these sort of things
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JA: No, ker takšne stvari
07:27
reveal what the true state
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razkrijejo, kakšne so v resnici
07:30
of, say,
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razmere v, recimo,
07:32
Arab governments are like,
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arabskih vladah,
07:34
the true human-rights abuses in those governments.
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resnične zlorabe človekovih pravic v teh vladah.
07:37
If you look at declassified cables,
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Če pogledate v objavljene zaupne telegrame,
07:39
that's the sort of material that's there.
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tam najdete takšne stvari.
07:41
CA: So let's talk a little more broadly about this.
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CA: Torej, pogovoriva se malo bolj na široko o tem.
07:43
I mean, in general, what's your philosophy?
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Mislim, na splošno, kakšna je tvoja filozofija?
07:45
Why is it right
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Zakaj je prav
07:47
to encourage leaking of secret information?
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spodbujati izdajanje tajnih informacij?
07:51
JA: Well, there's a question as to what sort of information is important in the world,
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JA: No, tu je vprašanje, katera vrsta informacij je pomembna v svetu,
07:54
what sort of information
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katera vrsta informacij
07:56
can achieve reform.
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lahko doseže reformo.
07:58
And there's a lot of information.
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In obstaja ogromno informacij.
08:00
So information that organizations
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Informacije, za katere organizacije
08:02
are spending economic effort into concealing,
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porabljajo ekonomska sredstva, da bi jih prikrile,
08:05
that's a really good signal
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so zelo dober signal,
08:07
that when the information gets out,
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da, ko bodo informacije enkrat zunaj,
08:09
there's a hope of it doing some good --
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obstaja upanje, da bodo naredile nekaj dobrega.
08:11
because the organizations that know it best,
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Ker se organizacije, ki jih najbolje poznajo,
08:13
that know it from the inside out,
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ki jih poznajo z vseh strani,
08:15
are spending work to conceal it.
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trudijo, da bi jih prikrile.
08:18
And that's what we've found in practice,
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In to smo odkrili v praksi.
08:20
and that's what the history of journalism is.
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In to je zgodovina novinarstva.
08:23
CA: But are there risks with that,
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CA: Vendar, ali obstajajo tudi tveganja
08:26
either to the individuals concerned
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za vpletene posameznike,
08:29
or indeed to society at large,
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ali za družbo na splošno,
08:31
where leaking can actually have
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kjer lahko ima izdajanje dejansko
08:33
an unintended consequence?
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nenamerne posledice?
08:35
JA: Not that we have seen with anything we have released.
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JA: Ne, kolikor smo videli pri čemerkoli, kar smo objavili.
08:37
I mean, we have a harm immunization policy.
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Mislim, imamo politiko imunizacije pred škodo.
08:39
We have a way of dealing with information
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Imamo način, kako ravnamo z informacijami,
08:41
that has sort of personal --
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ki imajo neke vrste osebno --
08:43
personally identifying information in it.
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ki vsebujejo informacijo o osebni identiteti.
08:46
But there are legitimate secrets --
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Vendar pa so tudi legitimne skrivnosti --
08:49
you know, your records with your doctor;
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veste, vaša kartoteka pri vašem doktorju;
08:52
that's a legitimate secret --
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to je legitimna skrivnost.
08:54
but we deal with whistleblowers that are coming forward
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Vendar delamo z žvižgači, ki nam pristopijo,
08:56
that are really sort of well-motivated.
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ki so v resnici na nek način zelo motivirani.
08:59
CA: So they are well-motivated.
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CA: Torej so zelo motivirani.
09:01
And what would you say to, for example,
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In kaj bi rekli, na primer,
09:03
the, you know, the parent of someone
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veste, staršu nekoga --
09:06
whose son is out serving the U.S. military,
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čigar sin služi v ameriški vojski
09:09
and he says, "You know what,
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in pravi, "Veste kaj,
09:11
you've put up something that someone had an incentive to put out.
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objavili ste nekaj, kar je nekomu bilo v interesu, da objavi.
09:13
It shows a U.S. soldier laughing
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Prikazuje ameriškega vojaka, ki se smeji
09:15
at people dying.
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ljudem, ki umirajo.
09:17
That gives the impression, has given the impression,
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To daje vtis -- je dalo vtis
09:19
to millions of people around the world
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milijonom ljudi po svetu,
09:21
that U.S. soldiers are inhuman people.
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da so ameriški vojaki nehumani ljudje.
09:23
Actually, they're not. My son isn't. How dare you?"
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Vendar v resnici niso. Moj sin ni. Kako si drznete?"
09:25
What would you say to that?
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Kako bi se odzvali na to?
09:27
JA: Yeah, we do get a lot of that.
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JA: Ja, to velikokrat slišimo.
09:29
But remember, the people in Baghdad,
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Vendar si zapomnite, ljudje v Bagdadu,
09:31
the people in Iraq, the people in Afghanistan --
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ljudem v Iraku, ljudem v Afganistanu --
09:34
they don't need to see the video;
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ni treba videti tega videa;
09:36
they see it every day.
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to vidijo vsak dan.
09:38
So it's not going to change their opinion. It's not going to change their perception.
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Tako, da to ne bo spremenilo njihovega mnenja. Ne bo spremenilo njihovega dojemanja.
09:41
That's what they see every day.
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To je to, kar vidijo vsak dan.
09:43
It will change the perception and opinion
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Spremenilo bo dojemanje in mnenje
09:46
of the people who are paying for it all,
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ljudi, ki vse to financirajo.
09:48
and that's our hope.
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To je naše upanje.
09:51
CA: So you found a way to shine light
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CA: Torej ste našli način, da osvetlite to,
09:54
into what you see
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kar vidite kot
09:57
as these sort of dark secrets in companies and in government.
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neke vrste temne skrivnosti podjetij in vlade.
10:01
Light is good.
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Svetloba je dobra.
10:03
But do you see any irony in the fact that,
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Vendar, ali vidite kakšno ironijo v dejstvu,
10:05
in order for you to shine that light,
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da, če želite te stvari osvetliti,
10:07
you have to, yourself,
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morate vi sami
10:09
create secrecy around your sources?
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ustvariti tajnost okoli svojih virov?
10:12
JA: Not really. I mean, we don't have
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JA: Niti ne. Mislim, zaenkrat še nimamo
10:15
any WikiLeaks dissidents yet.
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kakšnih odpadnikov WikiLeaks.
10:19
We don't have sources who are dissidents on other sources.
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Nimamo virov, ki so odpadniki kakšnih drugih virov.
10:23
Should they come forward, that would be a tricky situation for us,
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Če bi se razkrili, bi bila za nas to kočljiva situacija.
10:26
but we're presumably acting in such a way
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Ampak verjetno delujemo na tak način,
10:29
that people feel
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da se ljudje čutijo
10:31
morally compelled
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moralno primorane, da dopustijo
10:33
to continue our mission, not to screw it up.
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nadaljevanje našega poslanstva, ne pa, da bi ga zafrknili.
10:37
CA: I'd actually be interested, just based on what we've heard so far --
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CA: V bistvu bi me zanimalo, samo na podlagi tega, kar ste slišali do zdaj --
10:40
I'm curious as to the opinion in the TED audience.
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zanima me mnenje publike TED.
10:45
You know, there might be a couple of views
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Veste, lahko je več pogledov
10:47
of WikiLeaks and of Julian.
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na WikiLeaks in na Juliana.
10:49
You know, hero -- people's hero --
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Saj veste, junak -- ljudski junak --
10:52
bringing this important light.
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ki prinaša to pomembno svetlobo.
10:55
Dangerous troublemaker.
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Nevaren izzivalec nemirov.
10:58
Who's got the hero view?
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Kdo ga vidi kot junaka?
11:02
Who's got the dangerous troublemaker view?
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Kdo ga vidi kot nevarnega izzivalca nemirov?
11:06
JA: Oh, come on. There must be some.
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JA: Ah, dajte no. Nekaj jih mora biti.
11:09
CA: It's a soft crowd, Julian, a soft crowd.
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CA: Mili gledalci so, Julian, mili gledalci.
11:11
We have to try better. Let's show them another example.
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Morava se bolj potruditi. Pokaživa jim še en primer.
11:13
Now here's something that you haven't yet leaked,
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No, tukaj je nekaj, ker še niste objavili,
11:16
but I think for TED you are.
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vendar mislim, da za TED boš.
11:19
I mean it's an intriguing story that's just happened, right?
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Gre za zanimivo zgodbo, ki se je pravkar pripetila, kajne?
11:21
What is this?
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Kaj je to?
11:23
JA: So this is a sample of what we do
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JA: No, to je primer tega, kar počnemo
11:25
sort of every day.
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praktično vsak dan.
11:27
So late last year -- in November last year --
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Torej, proti koncu lanskega leta -- novembra lani --
11:30
there was a series of well blowouts
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je prišlo do vrste razlitij nafte iz vrtin
11:32
in Albania,
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v Albaniji,
11:34
like the well blowout in the Gulf of Mexico,
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podobnih razlitju v Mehiškem zalivu,
11:37
but not quite as big.
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vendar ne tako velikih.
11:39
And we got a report --
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In dobili smo poročilo --
11:42
a sort of engineering analysis into what happened --
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neke vrste inženirsko analizo tega, kar se je zgodilo --
11:45
saying that, in fact, security guards
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ki je trdilo, da so v resnici varnostniki
11:48
from some rival, various competing oil firms
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od nekaj konkurenčnih naftnih družb
11:51
had, in fact, parked trucks there and blown them up.
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tam parkirali tovornjake in jih razstrelili.
11:55
And part of the Albanian government was in this, etc., etc.
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In del albanske vlade je bil vpleten, itd., itd.
11:59
And the engineering report
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In to inženirsko poročilo
12:00
had nothing on the top of it,
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ni imelo na vrhu ničesar.
12:02
so it was an extremely difficult document for us.
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Zato je bil to skrajno težek dokument za nas.
12:04
We couldn't verify it because we didn't know
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Nismo ga mogli preveriti, ker nismo vedeli,
12:06
who wrote it and knew what it was about.
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kdo ga je napisal in za kaj sploh gre.
12:08
So we were kind of skeptical that maybe it was
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Zato smo bili do neke mere v dvomu, da mogoče kakšna
12:10
a competing oil firm just sort of playing the issue up.
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konkurenčna naftna družba samo napihuje zadevo.
12:12
So under that basis, we put it out and said,
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Na tej osnovi smo ga torej dali ven in rekli,
12:14
"Look, we're skeptical about this thing.
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"Glejte, skeptični smo o tej zadevi.
12:16
We don't know, but what can we do?
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Ne vemo, ampak, kaj lahko naredimo?
12:18
The material looks good, it feels right,
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Gradivo izgleda v redu, zdi se pristno,
12:20
but we just can't verify it."
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vendar ga preprosto ne moremo preveriti."
12:22
And we then got a letter
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In potem smo ravno ta teden
12:25
just this week
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dobili pismo
12:28
from the company who wrote it,
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od podjetja, ki ga je napisalo,
12:31
wanting to track down the source --
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in ki je želelo izslediti vir --
12:34
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
12:38
saying, "Hey, we want to track down the source."
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v katerem je pisalo, "Hej, želimo izslediti vir."
12:41
And we were like, "Oh, tell us more.
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In smo rekli, "Oh, povejte nam več.
12:43
What document is it, precisely, you're talking about?
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O katerem dokumentu točno govorite?
12:46
Can you show that you had legal authority over that document?
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Nam lahko dokažete, da imate legalno avtoriteto nad tem dokumentom?
12:49
Is it really yours?"
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Je res vaš?"
12:51
So they sent us this screen shot
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In so nam poslali sliko zaslona
12:54
with the author
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z avtorjem
12:56
in the Microsoft Word ID.
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v identifikaciji Microsoft Worda.
13:01
Yeah.
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Ja.
13:03
(Applause)
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(aplavz)
13:08
That's happened quite a lot though.
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V bistvu se to pogosto dogaja.
13:10
This is like one of our methods
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To je ena od naših metod
13:12
of identifying, of verifying, what a material is,
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identifikacije -- preverjanja, kaj je gradivo,
13:15
is to try and get these guys to write letters.
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te ljudi poskušamo pripraviti do pisanja pisem.
13:17
CA: Yeah. Have you had information
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CA: Ja. Ste imeli notranje informacije
13:20
from inside BP?
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iz BP (British Petroleum)?
13:22
JA: Yeah, we have a lot, but I mean, at the moment,
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JA: Ja, imamo jih veliko, vendar se trenutno ukvarjamo
13:25
we are undergoing a sort of serious fundraising and engineering effort.
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z neke vrste pomembnim zbiranjem denarja in inženiringom.
13:28
So our publication rate
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Tako je naša stopnja objavljanja
13:30
over the past few months
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v zadnjih nekaj mesecih
13:32
has been sort of minimized
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bila nekako na minimumu,
13:34
while we're re-engineering our back systems
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med tem ko na novo postavljamo svoj sistem
13:37
for the phenomenal public interest that we have.
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za izjemen interes javnosti, ki ga imamo.
13:40
That's a problem.
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To je problem.
13:42
I mean, like any sort of growing startup organization,
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Mislim, tako kot katerakoli mlada organizacija
13:45
we are sort of overwhelmed
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smo rahlo preplavljeni
13:47
by our growth,
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z lastno rastjo.
13:49
and that means we're getting enormous quantity
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In to pomeni, da dobivamo gromozanske količine
13:51
of whistleblower disclosures
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razkritij od žvižgačev
13:53
of a very high caliber
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zelo velikega kalibra,
13:55
but don't have enough people to actually
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vendar nimamo dovolj ljudi, da bi sploh
13:57
process and vet this information.
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obdelali in preverili te informacije.
13:59
CA: So that's the key bottleneck,
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CA: To je torej ključno ozko grlo,
14:01
basically journalistic volunteers
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v bistvu novinarski prostovoljci
14:03
and/or the funding of journalistic salaries?
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in/ali financiranje novinarskih plač?
14:06
JA: Yep. Yeah, and trusted people.
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JA: Jap. Ja in ljudje, ki jim zaupamo.
14:08
I mean, we're an organization
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Mislim, smo organizacija,
14:10
that is hard to grow very quickly
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ki težko zelo hitro raste
14:12
because of the sort of material we deal with,
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zaradi vrste materiala, s katerim imamo opravka.
14:14
so we have to restructure
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Torej se moramo prestrukturirati,
14:17
in order to have people
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da bomo imeli ljudi,
14:19
who will deal with the highest national security stuff,
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ki se bodo ukvarjali z največjimi nacionalnimi skrivnostmi
14:22
and then lower security cases.
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in potem s primeri nižje tajnosti.
14:24
CA: So help us understand a bit about you personally
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CA: Pomagaj nam torej razumeti tebe osebno
14:27
and how you came to do this.
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in kako si začel to delati.
14:29
And I think I read that as a kid
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In mislim, da sem prebral, da si kot otrok
14:31
you went to 37 different schools.
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obiskoval 37 različnih šol.
14:34
Can that be right?
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Je to sploh lahko res?
14:36
JA: Well, my parents were in the movie business
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JA: No, moja starša sta bila v filmski industriji,
14:39
and then on the run from a cult,
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potem pa sta bežala pred kultom,
14:41
so the combination between the two ...
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tako da kombinacija tega dvojega...
14:43
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
14:47
CA: I mean, a psychologist might say
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CA: Mislim, psiholog bi lahko rekel,
14:49
that's a recipe for breeding paranoia.
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da je to recept za gojenje paranoje.
14:52
JA: What, the movie business?
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JA: Kaj, filmska industrija?
14:54
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
14:57
(Applause)
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(aplavz)
15:00
CA: And you were also -- I mean,
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CA: In bil si tudi -- mislim,
15:02
you were also a hacker at an early age
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v mladih letih si bil tudi heker
15:04
and ran into the authorities early on.
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in si hitro prišel navzkriž z oblastmi.
15:07
JA: Well, I was a journalist.
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JA: No, bil sem novinar.
15:10
You know, I was a very young journalist activist at an early age.
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Veš, v mladih letih sem bil mlad novinarski aktivist.
15:12
I wrote a magazine,
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Pisal sem revijo
15:14
was prosecuted for it when I was a teenager.
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in za to so me tožili, ko sem bil najstnik.
15:17
So you have to be careful with hacker.
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Tako da moraš paziti z besedo "heker".
15:19
I mean there's like -- there's a method
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Mislim, obstaja -- obstaja metoda,
15:21
that can be deployed for various things.
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ki se jo lahko uporabi za različne namene.
15:23
Unfortunately, at the moment,
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Na žalost jo trenutno
15:25
it's mostly deployed by the Russian mafia
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najbolj uporablja ruska mafija,
15:27
in order to steal your grandmother's bank accounts.
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da bi ukradla bančni račun vaše babice.
15:29
So this phrase is not,
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Ta fraza torej ni --
15:32
not as nice as it used to be.
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ni tako lepa, kot je bila včasih.
15:34
CA: Yeah, well, I certainly don't think
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CA: Ja, no, jaz vsekakor ne mislim,
15:36
you're stealing anyone's grandmother's bank account,
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da kradeš bančne račune od nekogaršnje babice.
15:39
but what about
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Kako pa je
15:41
your core values?
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s tvojimi glavnimi vrednotami?
15:43
Can you give us a sense of what they are
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Nam lahko pojasniš, katere so
15:46
and maybe some incident in your life
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in mogoče kak dogodek iz tvojega življenja,
15:48
that helped determine them?
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ki jih je pomagal oblikovati?
15:53
JA: I'm not sure about the incident.
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JA: Glede dogodka ne vem.
15:55
But the core values:
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Glavne vrednote pa so:
15:58
well, capable, generous men
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torej, sposobni, velikodušni moški
16:01
do not create victims;
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ne ustvarjajo žrtev,
16:03
they nurture victims.
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ampak za žrtve skrbijo.
16:05
And that's something from my father
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In to je nekaj od mojega očeta
16:07
and something from other capable, generous men
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in nekaj od drugih sposobnih, velikodušnih moških,
16:10
that have been in my life.
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ki so bili v mojem življenju.
16:13
CA: Capable, generous men do not create victims;
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CA: Sposobni, velikodušni moški ne ustvarjajo žrtev;
16:15
they nurture victims?
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ampak za žrtve skrbijo?
16:17
JA: Yeah. And you know,
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JA: Ja. In veš,
16:19
I'm a combative person,
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jaz sem bojevita oseba,
16:23
so I'm not actually so big on the nurture,
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tako da nisem ravno za nego.
16:25
but some way --
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Ampak na nek način --
16:28
there is another way of nurturing victims,
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Obstaja še en način skrbi za žrtve
16:31
which is to police perpetrators
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in to je preganjanje tistih,
16:34
of crime.
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ki zagrešijo zločine.
16:36
And so that is something
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To je torej nekaj pomembnega,
16:38
that has been in my character
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kar je v mojem značaju
16:40
for a long time.
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že zelo dolgo.
16:42
CA: So just tell us, very quickly in the last minute, the story:
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CA: Torej, v zadnji minuti nam zelo na hitro povej zgodbo:
16:45
what happened in Iceland?
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Kaj se je zgodilo na Islandiji?
16:48
You basically published something there,
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V bistvu ste tam nekaj objavili,
16:51
ran into trouble with a bank,
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prišli v težave z banko,
16:54
then the news service there
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potem pa so tamkajšnji tiskovni agenciji
16:56
was injuncted from running the story.
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sodno prepovedali objavo zgodbe.
16:59
Instead, they publicized your side.
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Namesto tega so objavili vašo stran.
17:01
That made you very high-profile in Iceland. What happened next?
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S tem ste v Islandiji zelo zasloveli. Kaj je sledilo?
17:04
JA: Yeah, this is a great case, you know.
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JA: Ja, to je imeniten primer.
17:06
Iceland went through this financial crisis.
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Islandija je šla skozi finančno krizo.
17:08
It was the hardest hit of any country in the world.
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Doživela je najhujši udarec med vsemi državami na svetu.
17:10
Its banking sector was 10 times the GDP
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Njihov bančni sektor je predstavljal 10-krat več BDP-ja
17:12
of the rest of the economy.
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kot vse ostalo gospodarstvo skupaj.
17:14
Anyway, so we release this report
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Kakorkoli, to poročilo smo objavili
17:17
in July last year.
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julija lani.
17:20
And the national TV station was injuncted
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In nacionalna TV postaja je dobila sodno prepoved
17:22
five minutes before it went on air,
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pet minut, preden so šli v eter.
17:24
like out of a movie: injunction landed on the news desk,
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Kot v filmu je sodna prepoved pristala na novinarski mizi
17:26
and the news reader was like,
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in voditelj poročil je rekel,
17:28
"This has never happened before. What do we do?"
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"To se ni še nikoli zgodilo. Kaj naj pa zdaj?"
17:30
Well, we just show the website instead,
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No, namesto tega smo ves ta čas
17:32
for all that time, as a filler,
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kot mašilo kazali spletno stran.
17:35
and we became very famous in Iceland,
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In na Islandiji smo postali zelo znani,
17:37
went to Iceland and spoke about this issue.
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šli smo tja in govorili o tej zadevi.
17:40
And there was a feeling in the community
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In v družbi je bil občutek,
17:42
that that should never happen again,
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da se to ne bi smelo nikoli več zgoditi.
17:44
and as a result,
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Kot rezultat smo v sodelovanju
17:46
working with Icelandic politicians
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z nekaterimi islandskimi politiki
17:48
and some other international legal experts,
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in z nekaterimi drugimi mednarodnimi pravnimi strokovnjaki
17:50
we put together a new sort of
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pripravili neke vrste
17:52
package of legislation for Iceland
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paket zakonodaje za Islandijo,
17:55
to sort of become an offshore haven
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da bi postala necelinsko zavetišče
17:58
for the free press,
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svobodnega tiska z najmočnejšo
18:01
with the strongest journalistic protections in the world,
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pravno zaščito novinarstva na svetu
18:04
with a new Nobel Prize
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z novo nobelovo nagrado
18:06
for freedom of speech.
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za svobodo govora.
18:08
Iceland's a Nordic country,
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Islandija je nordijska država,
18:10
so, like Norway, it's able to tap into the system.
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tako da lahko kot Norveška poseže v sistem.
18:13
And just a month ago,
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In ravno pred enim mesecem
18:15
this was passed by the Icelandic parliament unanimously.
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je to soglasno potrdil islandski parlament.
18:18
CA: Wow.
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CA: Uau.
18:20
(Applause)
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(aplavz)
18:26
Last question, Julian.
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Zadnje vprašanje, Julian.
18:28
When you think of the future then,
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Ko torej pomisliš na prihodnost,
18:30
do you think it's more likely to be
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misliš, da je bolj verjetno,
18:32
Big Brother exerting more control,
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da bo Veliki brat uveljavljal več nadzora,
18:34
more secrecy,
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več tajnosti,
18:36
or us watching
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ali bomo mi nadzirali
18:38
Big Brother,
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Velikega brata,
18:40
or it's just all to be played for either way?
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ali pa se bo v vsakem primeru to šele odigralo?
18:43
JA: I'm not sure which way it's going to go.
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JA: Nisem prepričan, v katero smer bo šlo.
18:45
I mean, there's enormous pressures
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Mislim, ogromno pritiska je,
18:47
to harmonize freedom of speech legislation
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da bi se zakonodaji o svobodi govora in
18:50
and transparency legislation around the world --
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transparentnosti uskladili po vsem svetu --
18:53
within the E.U.,
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znotraj EU,
18:55
between China and the United States.
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med Kitajsko in Združenimi državami.
18:57
Which way is it going to go? It's hard to see.
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V katero smer bo šlo? Težko je predvideti.
19:00
That's why it's a very interesting time to be in --
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Zato je tako zanimivo biti v tem času.
19:02
because with just a little bit of effort,
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Zato, ker lahko s samo malo truda
19:04
we can shift it one way or the other.
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premaknemo stvari v eno ali drugo smer.
19:07
CA: Well, it looks like I'm reflecting the audience's opinion
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CA: No, zgleda, da odražam mnenje publike,
19:10
to say, Julian, be careful,
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ko pravim, Julian, čuvaj se
19:12
and all power to you.
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in z vso močjo naprej.
19:14
JA: Thank you, Chris. (CA: Thank you.)
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JA: Hvala, Chris. (CA: Hvala.)
19:16
(Applause)
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(aplavz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Julian Assange - WhistleblowerInternet activist Julian Assange serves as spokesperson for WikiLeaks, a controversial, volunteer-driven website that publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct.
Why you should listen
You could say Australian-born Julian Assange has swapped his long-time interest in network security flaws for the far-more-suspect flaws of even bigger targets: governments and corporations. Since his early 20s, he has been using network technology to prod and probe the vulnerable edges of administrative systems, but though he was a computing hobbyist first (in 1991 he was the target of hacking charges after he accessed the computers of an Australian telecom), he's now taken off his "white hat" and launched a career as one of the world's most visible human-rights activists.
He calls himself "editor in chief." He travels the globe as its spokesperson. Yet Assange's part in WikiLeaks is clearly dicier than that: he's become the face of creature that, simply, many powerful organizations would rather see the world rid of. His Wikipedia entry says he is "constantly on the move," and some speculate that his role in publishing decrypted US military video has put him in personal danger. A controversial figure, pundits debate whether his work is reckless and does more harm than good. Amnesty International recognized him with an International Media Award in 2009.
Assange studied physics and mathematics at the University of Melbourne. He wrote Strobe, the first free and open-source port scanner, and contributed to the book Underground: Tales of Hacking, Madness and Obsession on the Electronic Frontier.
Julian Assange | Speaker | TED.com