ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Edward Snowden - Whistleblower
In 2013 Edward Snowden leaked thousands of classified American National Security Agency documents, sparking a global conversation about citizens' rights to privacy on the Internet.

Why you should listen

Edward Snowden was just about to turn 28 when his face was suddenly splashed across every major newspaper in the US. In the summer of 2013 The Guardian published a series of leaked documents about the American National Security Agency (NSA), starting with an article about a secret court order demanding American phone records from Verizon, followed by an article on the NSA's top-secret Prism program, said to be accessing user data from Google, Apple and Facebook.

It wasn't long before Snowden came forward as the source, revealing that he had carefully planned the leak, copying documents when he was working as a contractor for the NSA. "I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions," he said at the time, but "I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant." Snowden's actions have led to a global debate on the relationship between national security and online privacy. His leaks continue to have a lasting impact on the American public's view of the government, and has encouraged media scrutiny on the NSA.

Snowden had coordinated the leak with journalist Glenn Greenwald and filmmaker Laura Poitras from Hong Kong; after he revealed his identity, he fled and ended up in Moscow. Under charges of espionage by the American government, Snowden remains in Russia in temporary asylum.

More profile about the speaker
Edward Snowden | Speaker | TED.com
TED2014

Edward Snowden: Here's how we take back the Internet

愛德華.史諾登: 奪回網路主導權

Filmed:
4,806,355 views

透過遠距通訊機器人,愛德華.史諾登在 TED 2014 登台演講,主題是監控與網路自主。他認為資料保密權並非黨派議題,而是要徹底再思考,網路在我們生活中扮演何種角色?以及相關法律保障。他說:「你的權利很重要」,「因為你難以預料何時會派上用場。」與論者還有特別來賓蒂姆.柏納斯李,他與主持人克里斯.安德森一同訪問愛德華.史諾登。
- Whistleblower
In 2013 Edward Snowden leaked thousands of classified American National Security Agency documents, sparking a global conversation about citizens' rights to privacy on the Internet. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:13
Chris克里斯 Anderson安德森: The rights權利 of citizens公民,
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克里斯‧安德森 (Chris Anderson):
要談公民權
00:15
the future未來 of the Internet互聯網.
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還有網路的未來發展
00:17
So I would like to welcome歡迎 to the TEDTED stage階段
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就想到這位揭露一切真相的人
00:20
the man behind背後 those revelations啟示,
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讓我們歡迎他上臺
00:23
Ed埃德 Snowden斯諾登.
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愛德華‧史諾登(Edward Snowden)
00:25
(Applause掌聲)
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(觀眾鼓掌)
00:29
Ed埃德 is in a remote遠程 location位置 somewhere某處 in Russia俄國
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他目前藏身俄羅斯偏鄉
以筆電操控這個機器人
00:33
controlling控制 this botBOT from his laptop筆記本電腦,
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00:36
so he can see what the botBOT can see.
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藉著機器人觀看現場
愛德華,歡迎蒞臨TED講壇
00:40
Ed埃德, welcome歡迎 to the TEDTED stage階段.
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00:42
What can you see, as a matter of fact事實?
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你目前實際能見範圍有多少?
00:46
Edward愛德華 Snowden斯諾登: Ha, I can see everyone大家.
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愛德華.史諾登:我看得到所有人
00:47
This is amazing驚人.
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好神奇!
(笑聲)
00:50
(Laughter笑聲)
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克里斯:請教一下
00:53
CACA: Ed埃德, some questions問題 for you.
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00:56
You've been called many許多 things
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過去5個月來
00:57
in the last few少數 months個月.
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有各種稱呼你的方式:
00:59
You've been called a whistleblower舉報人, a traitor叛徒,
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像告密者、叛國賊
01:04
a hero英雄.
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還有英雄
01:06
What words would you describe描述 yourself你自己 with?
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你又是如何看待自己的?
01:09
ESES: You know, everybody每個人 who is involved參與
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愛德華:所有就這件事
01:12
with this debate辯論
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爭論過的人
01:14
has been struggling奮鬥的 over me and my personality個性
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總是針對我和我的人格
01:16
and how to describe描述 me.
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以及如何來形容我
而爭辯不休
01:19
But when I think about it,
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但我仔細一想
01:21
this isn't the question that
we should be struggling奮鬥的 with.
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這根本不該是爭辯的問題
我是誰一點也不重要
01:25
Who I am really doesn't matter at all.
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若我是這世上最差勁的人
01:28
If I'm the worst最差 person in the world世界,
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你們大可恨我並繼續過生活
01:30
you can hate討厭 me and move移動 on.
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01:32
What really matters事項 here are the issues問題.
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以下這些議題才是重點 :
01:35
What really matters事項 here is the
kind of government政府 we want,
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真正重要的是我們要何種政府?
01:38
the kind of Internet互聯網 we want,
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還有我們想要什麽樣的網路?
01:39
the kind of relationship關係 between之間 people
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甚至我們希望人與社會間
01:42
and societies社會.
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存在何種關係?
01:43
And that's what I'm hoping希望
the debate辯論 will move移動 towards,
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這才是我認為社會公論
應該進行的方向
01:46
and we've我們已經 seen看到 that increasing增加 over time.
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這樣的討論趨勢也
越來越明顯
01:49
If I had to describe描述 myself,
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若要我描述自已
01:51
I wouldn't不會 use words like "hero英雄."
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我不會用英雄這類字眼
01:52
I wouldn't不會 use "patriot愛國者," and I wouldn't不會 use "traitor叛徒."
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也不會自稱愛國者或叛國賊
01:55
I'd say I'm an American美國 and I'm a citizen公民,
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我會說自己跟大家没兩樣
01:57
just like everyone大家 else其他.
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都是美國公民
01:59
CACA: So just to give some context上下文
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克里斯:為了讓不了解
事件過程的人
02:01
for those who don't know the whole整個 story故事 --
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了解來龍去脈
02:03
(Applause掌聲) —
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(掌聲響起)
02:07
this time a year ago, you were stationed in Hawaii夏威夷
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一年前的此時你還是
美國國家安全局
派駐夏威夷的顧問
02:12
working加工 as a consultant顧問 to the NSANSA.
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02:14
As a sysadmin系統管理員, you had access訪問
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因為你是系統管理師
有權限進入該局系統
02:16
to their systems系統,
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所以你將特定機密檔案
02:19
and you began開始 revealing揭示
certain某些 classified分類 documents文件
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透露給指定的媒體
02:23
to some handpicked挑選 journalists記者
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在2013年6月率先揭發內幕
02:26
leading領導 the way to June's六月的 revelations啟示.
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02:28
Now, what propelled推進的 you to do this?
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這樣做是基於何種動機?
愛德華:你知道嗎?
02:33
ESES: You know,
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多年前我派駐夏威夷
02:36
when I was sitting坐在 in Hawaii夏威夷,
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02:38
and the years年份 before, when I was
working加工 in the intelligence情報 community社區,
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從事情治工作時
02:41
I saw a lot of things that had disturbed不安 me.
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見過不少讓我不安的事
02:44
We do a lot of good things
in the intelligence情報 community社區,
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我們在情治單位
其實也有不少貢獻
而且都是必要
02:48
things that need to be doneDONE,
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02:49
and things that help everyone大家.
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對公眾有益的
02:51
But there are also things that go too far.
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但也有過分踰矩的作為
02:53
There are things that shouldn't不能 be doneDONE,
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更有一些根本不該去做的事
02:55
and decisions決定 that were being存在 made製作 in secret秘密
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還有黑箱決策
02:58
without the public's公眾的 awareness意識,
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大眾根本不知情
02:59
without the public's公眾的 consent同意,
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更別說同意
就連代表民意的國會議員
03:02
and without even our representatives代表 in government政府
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也被矇在鼓裡
03:04
having knowledge知識 of these programs程式.
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03:08
When I really came來了 to struggle鬥爭 with these issues問題,
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當這些問題
讓我陷入天人交戰時
03:13
I thought to myself,
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我暗自思索
03:14
how can I do this in the most responsible主管 way,
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該怎樣以最負責任的方式
為大眾謀取最大福利
03:17
that maximizes最大程度地增強 the public上市 benefit效益
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並將風險減到最低?
03:20
while minimizing減少 the risks風險?
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03:23
And out of all the solutions解決方案 that I could come up with,
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不管是我自己絞盡腦汁
想辦法也好
透過國會程序也好
03:26
out of going to Congress國會,
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03:28
when there were no laws法律,
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由於事發當時
還沒有相關條文
03:30
there were no legal法律 protections保護
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也沒有法律救濟
03:31
for a private私人的 employee僱員,
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來保護像我這樣的體制外僱員
03:33
a contractor承包商 in intelligence情報 like myself,
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像我一樣的情報單位合約僱員
03:36
there was a risk風險 that I would be
buried隱藏 along沿 with the information信息
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只要有動作
就有和情報一起消失的危險
03:40
and the public上市 would never find out.
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大眾永遠不會知情
03:42
But the First Amendment修訂 of
the United聯合的 States狀態 Constitution憲法
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但美國憲法第一修正案
03:45
guarantees擔保 us a free自由 press for a reason原因,
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保障新聞自由的原因
03:49
and that's to enable啟用 an adversarial對抗 press,
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就是要賦予媒體抗辯權
03:52
to challenge挑戰 the government政府,
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能夠挑戰政府的作為
同時也與政府合作
03:54
but also to work together一起 with the government政府,
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03:56
to have a dialogue對話 and debate辯論 about how we can
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03:59
inform通知 the public上市 about matters事項 of vital重要 importance重要性
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就如何在不危及
國家安全的條件下
告知大眾切身攸關的大事
04:04
without putting our national國民 security安全 at risk風險.
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進行對談與辯論
04:07
And by working加工 with journalists記者,
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靠著與媒體記者合作
04:09
by giving all of my information信息
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我將掌握到的資訊
04:11
back to the American美國 people,
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歸還美國人民
04:13
rather than trusting信任的 myself to make
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而非靠我自己判斷
04:15
the decisions決定 about publication出版物,
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是否要公開
04:18
we've我們已經 had a robust強大的 debate辯論
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大家對此已經有過相當
踴躍的辯論
04:20
with a deep investment投資 by the government政府
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政府方面的鼓勵大家關心
的投入也不惶多讓
04:23
that I think has resulted導致 in a benefit效益 for everyone大家.
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我認為這對大家都好
04:28
And the risks風險 that have been threatened受威脅,
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而那些政府
警告和過分強調的
04:32
the risks風險 that have been played發揮 up
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種種危機
04:34
by the government政府
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04:36
have never materialized物化.
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從來沒應驗過
04:37
We've我們已經 never seen看到 any evidence證據
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目前從未有證據
04:39
of even a single instance of specific具體 harm危害,
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顯示任何相關危害的案例
正因如此
04:43
and because of that,
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我對自己的決定很放心
04:44
I'm comfortable自在 with the decisions決定 that I made製作.
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克里斯:我想讓觀眾看一下
04:46
CACA: So let me show顯示 the audience聽眾
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兩個你揭發過的案例
04:49
a couple一對 of examples例子 of what you revealed透露.
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04:51
If we could have a slide滑動 up, and Ed埃德,
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可以幫我放一下投影片嗎?
04:53
I don't know whether是否 you can see,
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不知愛德華你是否看得到?
04:55
the slides幻燈片 are here.
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投影片巳打在瑩幕上
04:56
This is a slide滑動 of the PRISMPRISM program程序,
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這張是有關稜鏡計畫 (PRISM) 的
04:59
and maybe you could tell the audience聽眾
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也許你可以跟觀眾解釋
05:01
what that was that was revealed透露.
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已公開的資訊有哪些內容
05:04
ESES: The best最好 way to understand理解 PRISMPRISM,
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愛德華:因為有些爭議
05:06
because there's been a little bit of controversy爭議,
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所以了解此計畫最好的方式
05:07
is to first talk about what PRISMPRISM isn't.
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就是先排除不相關的部份
在美國引發辯論的大多是
中繼資料 (metadata)
05:11
Much of the debate辯論 in the U.S.
has been about metadata元數據.
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05:14
They've他們已經 said it's just metadata元數據, it's just metadata元數據,
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官方也始終宣稱只是中繼資料
05:17
and they're talking about a specific具體 legal法律 authority權威
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目前他們援引的法理是
05:19
called Section部分 215 of the Patriot愛國者 Act法案.
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《愛國者法案》第215款
該條文形同容許非法監聽
05:22
That allows允許 sort分類 of a warrantless無證 wiretapping竊聽,
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05:25
mass surveillance監控 of the entire整個 country's
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並能廣泛地監控全國通聯紀錄
05:28
phone電話 records記錄, things like that --
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或施行類似的手段
05:30
who you're talking to,
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像通話對象
05:31
when you're talking to them,
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通聯時間
和旅行地點
05:33
where you traveled旅行.
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05:34
These are all metadata元數據 events事件.
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都是中繼資料搜集的範圍
05:37
PRISMPRISM is about content內容.
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「稜鏡」涉及的是通訊內容
05:40
It's a program程序 through通過 which哪一個 the government政府 could
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這計畫讓美國政府
得以驅使美國企業
05:42
compel迫使 corporate企業 America美國,
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05:44
it could deputize副手 corporate企業 America美國
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並授權給他們
05:48
to do its dirty work for the NSANSA.
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為國家安全局做些不法勾當
05:52
And even though雖然 some of
these companies公司 did resist,
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儘管有些企業確實抗拒過
05:55
even though雖然 some of them --
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即使雅虎(Yahoo)等
05:56
I believe Yahoo雅虎 was one of them —
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05:57
challenged挑戰 them in court法庭, they all lost丟失,
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這些公司曾訴諸法律
不過都鍛羽而歸
06:00
because it was never tried試著 by an open打開 court法庭.
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因為都不是在公開庭審理
06:03
They were only tried試著 by a secret秘密 court法庭.
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而僅以不公開方式
進行審判
06:06
And something that we've我們已經 seen看到,
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我們目睹過稜鏡計畫中的
某些部分
06:07
something about the PRISMPRISM program程序
that's very concerning關於 to me is,
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有些部分格外令我憂心
06:10
there's been a talking point in the U.S. government政府
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美國政府內部曾存在一種論據
06:12
where they've他們已經 said 15 federal聯邦 judges法官
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說有15位聯邦法官
重審過這些計畫
並判決計劃屬於合法行動
06:16
have reviewed回顧 these programs程式
and found發現 them to be lawful合法,
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06:19
but what they don't tell you
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不過政府不會告訴你
06:21
is those are secret秘密 judges法官
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審判程序其實是
秘密進行
在不公開庭當中
06:24
in a secret秘密 court法庭
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06:26
based基於 on secret秘密 interpretations解讀 of law
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基於政府對法律的片面解讀
06:29
that's considered考慮 34,000 warrant保證 requests要求
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過去33年中
政府申請過3萬4千筆搜索票
06:33
over 33 years年份,
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33年中
06:36
and in 33 years年份 only rejected拒絕
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僅有11件申請被駁回
06:38
11 government政府 requests要求.
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06:41
These aren't the people that we want deciding決定
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我們認為不應該由
這些仲裁者決定
06:43
what the role角色 of corporate企業 America美國
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美國企業
在自由開放的網路中
扮演的角色
06:46
in a free自由 and open打開 Internet互聯網 should be.
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克里斯:接下來的投影片顯示
06:48
CACA: Now, this slide滑動 that we're showing展示 here
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各家科技和網路公司
06:50
shows節目 the dates日期 in which哪一個
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據傳涉入稜鏡計畫
06:52
different不同 technology技術 companies公司, Internet互聯網 companies公司,
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06:55
are alleged所謂的 to have joined加盟 the program程序,
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以及資料蒐集活動
06:57
and where data數據 collection採集 began開始 from them.
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起始的日期
07:00
Now, they have denied否認 collaborating合作 with the NSANSA.
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不過他們都否認與美國
國家安全局合作
07:05
How was that data數據 collected by the NSANSA?
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到底國家安全局是
怎樣蒐集資料的?
愛德華:是這樣的,
在他們的簡報中
07:10
ESES: Right. So the NSA'sNSA的 own擁有 slides幻燈片
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07:13
refer參考 to it as direct直接 access訪問.
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這叫遠端存取
07:16
What that means手段 to an actual實際 NSANSA analyst分析人士,
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對我們美國國安局
情報分析師
07:19
someone有人 like me who was working加工
as an intelligence情報 analyst分析人士
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也就是像我一樣
分析情報資料
07:22
targeting針對, Chinese中文 cyber-hackers網絡,黑客,
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例如在夏威夷鎖定
中國網路駭客
07:24
things like that, in Hawaii夏威夷,
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或做其他
類似工作的人來說
07:26
is the provenance出處 of that data數據
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遠端存取就是
07:28
is directly from their servers服務器.
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直接從他人伺服器攫取資料
07:31
It doesn't mean
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這並不表示
07:33
that there's a group of company公司 representatives代表
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有一大群公司代表
07:35
sitting坐在 in a smoky room房間 with the NSANSA
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與國安局的人同坐在
煙霧繚繞的房間裡
套交情搞暗盤
07:38
palling結交 around and making製造 back-room回房 deals交易
170
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07:40
about how they're going to give this stuff東東 away.
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商議著該如何移轉資料
07:42
Now each company公司 handles手柄 it different不同 ways方法.
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各公司的做法都有所不同
07:45
Some are responsible主管.
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有些採取負責任的方式
07:46
Some are somewhat有些 less responsible主管.
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有些就比較輕忽
07:48
But the bottom底部 line is, when we talk about
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不過重點是
當談到資料如何移轉
07:50
how this information信息 is given特定,
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07:53
it's coming未來 from the companies公司 themselves他們自己.
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其實是公司自己交出的
07:56
It's not stolen被盜 from the lines.
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並非從線上竊取
07:58
But there's an important重要 thing to remember記得 here:
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不過有一點是必須記得的
08:00
even though雖然 companies公司 pushed back,
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就算公司抵制這樣的做法
08:02
even though雖然 companies公司 demanded要求,
181
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甚至要求依法行事,像是
08:04
hey, let's do this through通過 a warrant保證 process處理,
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「我們透過正當搜索程序
來進行吧」
08:06
let's do this
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「就這麼辦吧!」
為此我們真的研究過相關法律
08:08
where we actually其實 have some sort分類 of legal法律 review評論,
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好確定交出資料是合法的
08:11
some sort分類 of basis基礎 for handing移交 over
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08:13
these users'用戶' data數據,
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關於這些用戶資訊
08:15
we saw stories故事 in the Washington華盛頓 Post崗位 last year
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去年華盛頓郵報就報過了好幾則
08:17
that weren't as well reported報導 as the PRISMPRISM story故事
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不過稜鏡計畫的報導比較精彩
08:21
that said the NSANSA broke打破 in
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其中提到美國國安局侵入
企業資訊伺服器中心
08:23
to the data數據 center中央 communications通訊
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08:25
between之間 Google谷歌 to itself本身
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竊取Google內部的資訊溝通
08:27
and Yahoo雅虎 to itself本身.
192
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對雅虎也如法炮製
08:29
So even these companies公司 that are cooperating合作
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有此可見,即使公司勉強
在法律邊緣
08:32
in at least最小 a compelled被迫 but hopefully希望 lawful合法 manner方式
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配合美國國安局行事
08:34
with the NSANSA,
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但國安局要得其實更多
08:36
the NSANSA isn't satisfied滿意 with that,
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因此我們呼籲公司
08:40
and because of that, we need our companies公司
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08:42
to work very hard
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竭盡全力
確保他們會堅守
08:44
to guarantee保證 that they're going to represent代表
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捍衛使用權利益的立場
並且極力倡導
08:47
the interests利益 of the user用戶, and also advocate主張
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使用者的權益維護
08:49
for the rights權利 of the users用戶.
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08:51
And I think over the last year,
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去年一整年我都在想
08:53
we've我們已經 seen看到 the companies公司 that are named命名
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剛才那張稜鏡計畫簡報
08:54
on the PRISMPRISM slides幻燈片
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點名的公司
08:56
take great strides進步 to do that,
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1809
已經放手去做這件事
08:57
and I encourage鼓勵 them to continue繼續.
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2253
而我鼓勵他們持續下去
09:00
CACA: What more should they do?
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克里斯:他們還有哪些事該做?
09:02
ESES: The biggest最大 thing that an Internet互聯網 company公司
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愛德華:目前美國的網路公司
09:06
in America美國 can do today今天, right now,
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534209
3226
在保護全球用戶權利上
不需涉及法律層面
09:09
without consulting諮詢 with lawyers律師,
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1442
09:11
to protect保護 the rights權利 of users用戶 worldwide全世界,
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又最能著力的一點
09:14
is to enable啟用 SSLSSL web捲筒紙 encryption加密
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就是為每個網頁
啟用傳輸安全層機制
09:19
on every一切 page you visit訪問.
213
547799
2005
09:22
The reason原因 this matters事項 is today今天,
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549804
2942
這很重要的理由是:
如果今天
你上亞馬遜網路書店流覽
《1984》這本小說
09:24
if you go to look at a copy複製 of "1984" on Amazon亞馬遜.comCOM,
215
552746
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美國國安局看得到瀏覽記錄
09:30
the NSANSA can see a record記錄 of that,
216
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2447
09:32
the Russian俄語 intelligence情報 service服務
can see a record記錄 of that,
217
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2219
俄國也能
09:34
the Chinese中文 service服務 can see a record記錄 of that,
218
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中國也是
09:37
the French法國 service服務, the German德語 service服務,
219
565107
1898
德法也不例外
09:39
the services服務 of Andorra安道爾.
220
567005
1322
甚至安道拉親王國(歐洲)
都辦得到
09:40
They can all see it because it's unencrypted加密.
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568327
3278
沒有加密保護
就無法防範這些窺視
09:43
The world's世界 library圖書館 is Amazon亞馬遜.comCOM,
222
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3600
亞馬遜是全球書庫
09:47
but not only do they not
support支持 encryption加密 by default默認,
223
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但他們不是唯一
沒預設加密保護的
09:50
you cannot不能 choose選擇 to use encryption加密
224
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你甚至不能選擇以加密方式
09:52
when browsing瀏覽 through通過 books圖書.
225
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1727
上網瀏覽書籍
09:53
This is something that we need to change更改,
226
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1709
這樣的事必須有所改變
09:55
not just for Amazon亞馬遜, I don't mean to single them out,
227
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這不是針對亞馬遜
我不是要找他們碴
09:57
but they're a great example.
228
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1492
不過他們是個明顯的例子
09:59
All companies公司 need to move移動
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事實上所有公司
都得付出行動
10:00
to an encrypted加密 browsing瀏覽 habit習慣 by default默認
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預設加密的網路瀏覽
10:04
for all users用戶 who haven't沒有 taken採取 any action行動
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2484
對尚未採取任何行動
或主動使用特定措施的用戶
10:06
or picked採摘的 any special特別 methods方法 on their own擁有.
232
594374
2261
10:08
That'll那會 increase增加 the privacy隱私 and the rights權利
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加密可強化隱私
10:11
that people enjoy請享用 worldwide全世界.
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同時保護全球用戶權利
10:13
CACA: Ed埃德, come with me to this part部分 of the stage階段.
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2478
克里斯:愛德華請跟我來
我想給你看下一張投影片(掌聲)
10:16
I want to show顯示 you the next下一個 slide滑動 here. (Applause掌聲)
236
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10:19
This is a program程序 called Boundless蒼茫 Informant線人.
237
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2708
這程式叫《神通線民》
(Boundless Informant)
10:22
What is that?
238
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1676
是什麼樣的程式呢?
10:23
ESES: So, I've got to give credit信用 to the NSANSA
239
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2180
愛德華:我得佩服美國國安局
10:25
for using運用 appropriate適當 names on this.
240
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2443
取了這麼貼切的名字
10:28
This is one of my favorite喜愛 NSANSA cryptonymscryptonyms.
241
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3845
在他們取的代號中
這算我最愛的一個
10:32
Boundless蒼茫 Informant線人
242
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1470
美國國安局對國會隱瞞
10:33
is a program程序 that the NSANSA hid from Congress國會.
243
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《神通線民》這個程式
10:36
The NSANSA was previously先前 asked by Congress國會,
244
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2409
美國國會質詢過國安局
10:38
was there any ability能力 that they had
245
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2213
國家是否有能力
就美國境內
10:41
to even give a rough ballpark球場 estimate估計
246
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3758
通訊監聽的數量
10:44
of the amount of American美國 communications通訊
247
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作粗略的估計?
10:47
that were being存在 intercepted截獲.
248
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2134
國安局回答:不行
因為他們不追蹤相關統計
10:49
They said no. They said, we don't track跟踪 those stats統計,
249
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3031
也無法追蹤相關資料
10:52
and we can't track跟踪 those stats統計.
250
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1549
所以全球有多少通訊
遭到監聽
10:53
We can't tell you how many許多 communications通訊
251
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3104
他們無可奉告
10:56
we're intercepting攔截 around the world世界,
252
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1463
因為透露這項資訊
10:58
because to tell you that would be
253
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1487
等同侵犯隱私
10:59
to invade入侵 your privacy隱私.
254
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3307
11:03
Now, I really appreciate欣賞 that sentiment情緒 from them,
255
650955
2215
我尊重他們對此事的意見
11:05
but the reality現實, when you look at this slide滑動 is,
256
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2135
不過實際上
若你仔細研究這張投影片
11:07
not only do they have the capability能力,
257
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1653
國安局不但
早就有監聽能力
11:09
the capability能力 already已經 exists存在.
258
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2616
而且已經這樣做了
11:11
It's already已經 in place地點.
259
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11:13
The NSANSA has its own擁有 internal內部 data數據 format格式
260
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國安局內部的資料格式
11:16
that tracks軌道 both ends結束 of a communication通訊,
261
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4149
可監控通訊雙方
11:20
and if it says,
262
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1282
若資料顯示
11:22
this communication通訊 came來了 from America美國,
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2026
通訊由美國本土發出
11:24
they can tell Congress國會 how
many許多 of those communications通訊
264
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2356
國安局等便可向國會說明
11:26
they have today今天, right now.
265
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2516
目前掌握多少通訊內容
11:28
And what Boundless蒼茫 Informant線人 tells告訴 us
266
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2971
而「神通線民的」所透露的
11:31
is more communications通訊 are being存在 intercepted截獲
267
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2726
就是通訊內容被監聽的狀況
與俄國境內的俄國人相較
11:34
in America美國 about Americans美國人
268
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2973
美國人在國內受害更深
11:37
than there are in Russia俄國 about Russians俄羅斯.
269
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3420
我不確定情治單位
11:41
I'm not sure that's what an intelligence情報 agency機構
270
688815
1865
是否該致力於此
11:42
should be aiming瞄準 for.
271
690680
2319
11:45
CACA: Ed埃德, there was a story故事 broken破碎
in the Washington華盛頓 Post崗位,
272
692999
2406
克里斯:但愛德華我跟你說
華盛頓郵報曾報導
11:47
again from your data數據.
273
695405
1722
同樣是根據你的資料
11:49
The headline標題 says,
274
697127
1679
標題是這樣的:
「美國國安局觸犯隱私的頻率
11:51
"NSANSA broke打破 privacy隱私 rules規則
275
698806
1497
11:52
thousands數千 of times per year."
276
700303
2030
每年多達數千次」
11:54
Tell us about that.
277
702333
1538
跟我們解釋一下吧
11:56
ESES: We also heard聽說 in Congressional國會
testimony見證 last year,
278
703871
2593
愛德華:去年我們也參與了
國會聽證會
當時感覺真奇妙 !
11:58
it was an amazing驚人 thing for someone有人 like me
279
706464
1937
當我們來自國安局的人
12:00
who came來了 from the NSANSA
280
708401
1704
12:02
and who's誰是 seen看到 the actual實際 internal內部 documents文件,
281
710105
2572
以及看過實際內部文件
12:04
knows知道 what's in them,
282
712677
2591
知曉內容的人
12:07
to see officials官員 testifying作證 under oath誓言
283
715268
2540
看著官員
眼睜睜立誓擔保:
12:10
that there had been no abuses濫用,
284
717808
1882
國安局沒有濫用監聽權
12:11
that there had been no violations違規 of the NSA'sNSA的 rules規則,
285
719690
3633
沒有任何違反國安局的規定
與此同時,我們也知道
華盛頓郵報這篇報導即將公開
12:15
when we knew知道 this story故事 was coming未來.
286
723323
2941
12:18
But what's especially特別 interesting有趣 about this,
287
726264
2088
不過特別令人玩味的是
12:20
about the fact事實 that the NSANSA has violated違反
288
728352
2048
關於國安局
違反業務相關規定
及法律的情形
12:22
their own擁有 rules規則, their own擁有 laws法律
289
730400
2368
12:24
thousands數千 of times in a single year,
290
732768
2673
一年之中高達上千次
12:27
including包含 one event事件 by itself本身,
291
735441
2727
有個特殊的個案
12:30
one event事件 out of those 2,776,
292
738168
4976
在2,776件案例之中
這個單一案件
就牽連了3,000人以上
12:35
that affected受影響 more than 3,000 people.
293
743144
2306
在另一個事件中
國安局
12:37
In another另一個 event事件, they intercepted截獲
294
745450
1839
在意外的情況下
截聽到華盛頓首府的所有電話
12:39
all the calls電話 in Washington華盛頓, D.C., by accident事故.
295
747289
4212
12:43
What's amazing驚人 about this,
296
751501
2237
令人訝異的是
12:45
this report報告, that didn't get that much attention注意,
297
753738
2208
這份沒有引發太多關注的報告
12:48
is the fact事實 that not only were there 2,776 abuses濫用,
298
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4861
揭露的不只是監聽權濫用案
高達2,776件
而是連參議院情報委員會主席
12:53
the chairman主席 of the Senate參議院 Intelligence情報 Committee委員會,
299
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2141
12:55
Dianne戴安娜 Feinstein范斯坦, had not seen看到 this report報告
300
762948
3987
黛安.范士丹(Dianne Feinstein)
都沒看過該份報告
直到華盛頓郵報聯絡上她
12:59
until直到 the Washington華盛頓 Post崗位 contacted聯繫 her
301
766935
3191
請她就此發表看法
13:02
asking for comment評論 on the report報告.
302
770126
2448
她才從美國國安局
13:04
And she then requested要求 a copy複製 from the NSANSA
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要到一份副本
13:06
and received收到 it,
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774467
1701
13:08
but had never seen看到 this before that.
305
776168
2027
不過之前她毫不知情
美國情治單位
怠忽職守的程度
13:10
What does that say about the state of oversight疏忽
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778195
2687
由此可見一般
13:13
in American美國 intelligence情報
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780882
1737
竟連參議院情報委員會主席
13:14
when the chairman主席 of the
Senate參議院 Intelligence情報 Committee委員會
308
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1788
都不知道
13:16
has no idea理念 that the rules規則 are being存在 broken破碎
309
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2793
每年有數千件的違規情事
13:19
thousands數千 of times every一切 year?
310
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2160
13:21
CACA: Ed埃德, one response響應 to this whole整個 debate辯論 is this:
311
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3629
克里斯:人們對相關爭議的
其中一個反應是
13:25
Why should we care關心 about
312
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2665
坦白說,我們為何要在意
13:27
all this surveillance監控, honestly老老實實?
313
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1468
這些監控措施?
13:29
I mean, look, if you've doneDONE nothing wrong錯誤,
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2152
我的意思是,若問心無愧
13:31
you've got nothing to worry擔心 about.
315
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2784
有什麼好擔心的?
13:34
What's wrong錯誤 with that point of view視圖?
316
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2292
這樣的觀點有何不妥?
愛德華:首先
13:36
ESES: Well, so the first thing is,
317
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1648
13:38
you're giving up your rights權利.
318
805998
1713
這種態度
等於放棄自身權利
13:39
You're saying hey, you know,
319
807711
1358
好像在說:
「我應該不需要加密功能啦,
13:41
I don't think I'm going to need them,
320
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2372
13:43
so I'm just going to trust相信 that, you know,
321
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信任網路環境就好了吧
13:45
let's get rid擺脫 of them, it doesn't really matter,
322
813123
2978
不用管那麼多啦,
沒什麼大不了的吧?
13:48
these guys are going to do the right thing.
323
816101
1974
政府會規規矩矩做事啦。」
13:50
Your rights權利 matter
324
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1859
其實個人權利很重要
13:52
because you never know when
you're going to need them.
325
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2842
說不定哪天會派上用場
13:54
Beyond that, it's a part部分 of our cultural文化 identity身分,
326
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2282
除此以外
這也關係著我們的文化認同
不只是美國
13:57
not just in America美國,
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2132
還有整體西方社會
13:59
but in Western西 societies社會
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1591
14:00
and in democratic民主的 societies社會 around the world世界.
329
828781
2962
和全球民主化社會
的文化認同
14:03
People should be able能夠 to pick up the phone電話
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2404
民眾應該能
撥電話給家人
14:06
and to call their family家庭,
331
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1454
14:07
people should be able能夠 to send發送 a text文本 message信息
332
835601
1999
民眾應該能傳送簡訊
14:09
to their loved喜愛 ones那些,
333
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1128
給摯愛的人們
14:10
people should be able能夠 to buy購買 a book online線上,
334
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2454
應該能上網買書
14:13
they should be able能夠 to travel旅行 by train培養,
335
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1790
坐火車旅行
14:15
they should be able能夠 to buy購買 an airline航空公司 ticket
336
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2217
線上訂機票
14:17
without wondering想知道 about how these events事件
337
845189
1737
而無須顧慮
14:19
are going to look to an agent代理人 of the government政府,
338
846926
3685
未來數年內
這些通訊可能會被
本國政府單位
14:22
possibly或者 not even your government政府
339
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2590
甚至是外國政府窺視
14:25
years年份 in the future未來,
340
853201
1755
還有內容會如何被曲解?
14:27
how they're going to be misinterpreted曲解
341
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1740
讓自己的意圖遭到質疑
14:28
and what they're going to think your intentions意圖 were.
342
856696
2784
14:31
We have a right to privacy隱私.
343
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2074
我們有權保護隱私
14:33
We require要求 warrants認股權證 to be based基於 on probable可能 cause原因
344
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3618
要求正當理由的合法搜索
14:37
or some kind of individualized個性化 suspicion懷疑
345
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2464
或是針對特定人的
犯罪嫌疑搜索
14:39
because we recognize認識 that trusting信任的 anybody任何人,
346
867636
4527
這是因為我們了解
將所有人際通訊
託付給任何個人或政府
14:44
any government政府 authority權威,
347
872163
1594
14:45
with the entirety整體 of human人的 communications通訊
348
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3084
而期望上述個人或政府
能守密並且毫不懈怠
14:49
in secret秘密 and without oversight疏忽
349
876841
2433
14:51
is simply只是 too great a temptation誘惑 to be ignored忽視.
350
879274
4844
實在是一個令人無法忽視
的強大誘惑
克里斯:你做的事讓某些人很憤怒
14:56
CACA: Some people are furious狂怒 at what you've doneDONE.
351
884118
2559
我最近才聽過
迪克.錢尼(Dick Cheney)的說法
14:58
I heard聽說 a quote引用 recently最近 from Dick迪克 Cheney切尼
352
886677
2839
15:01
who said that Julian朱利安 Assange阿桑奇 was a flea跳蚤 bite,
353
889516
5892
他說朱利安.阿桑奇(Julian Assange)
像是惱人的跳蚤
反觀愛德華.史諾登
卻造成莫大傷害
15:07
Edward愛德華 Snowden斯諾登 is the lion獅子
that bit the head off the dog.
354
895408
3422
15:11
He thinks you've committed提交
355
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1553
他認為你所犯下的
15:12
one of the worst最差 acts行為 of betrayal辜負
356
900383
2292
是一種美國有史以來
15:14
in American美國 history歷史.
357
902675
2106
惡行最重大的叛國罪
15:16
What would you say to people who think that?
358
904781
4356
對那些有同感的人
你有話要說嗎?
愛德華:迪克.錢尼果真很另類!
15:23
ESES: Dick迪克 Cheney's切尼 really something else其他.
359
910975
2205
15:25
(Laughter笑聲) (Applause掌聲)
360
913180
6797
(觀眾會心一笑夾雜掌聲)
(笑著說)謝謝大家!
15:32
Thank you. (Laughter笑聲)
361
920476
4902
我覺得很詫異
15:37
I think it's amazing驚人, because at the time
362
925378
2476
朱利安.阿桑奇在從事一些
貢獻宏偉的工作時
15:40
Julian朱利安 Assange阿桑奇 was doing some of his greatest最大 work,
363
927854
3775
當時迪克.錢尼說
15:43
Dick迪克 Cheney切尼 was saying
364
931629
1436
他會把所有的政府搞垮
15:45
he was going to end結束 governments政府 worldwide全世界,
365
933065
2430
到時將風雲變色
15:47
the skies天空 were going to ignite點燃
366
935495
2905
15:50
and the seas海域 were going to boil off,
367
938400
2136
怒海翻騰
15:52
and now he's saying it's a flea跳蚤 bite.
368
940536
2218
現在反被說得微不足道
15:54
So we should be suspicious可疑 about the same相同 sort分類 of
369
942754
2513
因此對於相關官員
把對國家安全危害誇大的說法
15:57
overblown誇大 claims索賠 of damage損傷 to national國民 security安全
370
945267
4193
我們應該有所保留
16:01
from these kind of officials官員.
371
949460
1685
16:03
But let's assume承擔 that these
people really believe this.
372
951145
6849
不過姑且假設這些人真這麼想
16:10
I would argue爭論 that they have kind of
373
957994
2230
那我認為
他們對國家安全的概念很狹隘
16:12
a narrow狹窄 conception概念 of national國民 security安全.
374
960224
4370
16:16
The prerogatives特權 of people like Dick迪克 Cheney切尼
375
964594
3216
像迪克.錢尼
這些位高權重的人
並未善盡保衛國家安全
的重責大任
16:20
do not keep the nation國家 safe安全.
376
967841
2981
大眾利益不會總是
16:23
The public上市 interest利益 is not always the same相同
377
970822
4033
和國家利益相同
16:27
as the national國民 interest利益.
378
974855
2435
16:29
Going to war戰爭 with people who are not our enemy敵人
379
977290
3894
跟並不敵對的他國人民交戰
在不構成威脅的地域交戰
16:33
in places地方 that are not a threat威脅
380
981184
2130
16:35
doesn't make us safe安全,
381
983314
2167
不會讓大家更安全
16:37
and that applies適用 whether是否 it's in Iraq伊拉克
382
985481
2167
這道理不管在伊拉克
16:39
or on the Internet互聯網.
383
987648
1767
還是網路上都適用
16:41
The Internet互聯網 is not the enemy敵人.
384
989415
1523
網絡不是敵人
16:43
Our economy經濟 is not the enemy敵人.
385
990938
2025
美國的經濟也不是
16:45
American美國 businesses企業, Chinese中文 businesses企業,
386
992963
2286
美國和中國的企業
16:47
and any other company公司 out there
387
995249
4571
還有世界上任何公司
都是我們社會的一部分
16:52
is a part部分 of our society社會.
388
999820
2431
16:54
It's a part部分 of our interconnected互聯 world世界.
389
1002251
2214
構成我們所處的世界
16:56
There are ties聯繫 of fraternity兄弟會 that bond us together一起,
390
1004465
4445
邦誼拉近我們的關係
17:01
and if we destroy破壞 these bonds債券
391
1008910
2668
但若我們破壞那些標準、規範
17:03
by undermining破壞 the standards標準, the security安全,
392
1011578
3155
還有那些各國政府和公民
17:06
the manner方式 of behavior行為,
393
1014733
2857
期待我們遵守的
17:09
that nations國家 and citizens公民 all around the world世界
394
1017590
2951
行為規範
就會破壞了這樣的關係
17:12
expect期望 us to abide遵守 by.
395
1020541
2377
17:15
CACA: But it's alleged所謂的 that you've stolen被盜
396
1022918
3702
克里斯:據傳
你"盜取"了170萬份文件
17:18
1.7 million百萬 documents文件.
397
1026620
1899
17:20
It seems似乎 only a few少數 hundred of them
398
1028519
1827
不過目前看來
17:22
have been shared共享 with journalists記者 so far.
399
1030346
2857
透露給媒體的不過幾百份
17:25
Are there more revelations啟示 to come?
400
1033203
3045
之後還會有更多消息曝光嗎?
愛德華:當然有!
17:28
ESES: There are absolutely絕對 more revelations啟示 to come.
401
1036248
2442
17:30
I don't think there's any question
402
1038690
2801
我非常確定
17:33
that some of the most important重要 reporting報告
403
1041491
4247
一些最關键的報告
17:37
to be doneDONE is yet然而 to come.
404
1045738
4740
尚未曝光
克里斯:過來看!關於這個曝光的消息
17:42
CACA: Come here, because I want to ask you
405
1050478
2062
17:44
about this particular特定 revelation啟示.
406
1052540
1527
我有事請教
17:46
Come and take a look at this.
407
1054067
3022
你來看一下!
17:49
I mean, this is a story故事 which哪一個 I think
for a lot of the techies技術人員 in this room房間
408
1057089
3248
接著要談的這則新聞,我認為
是現場許多科技行家
17:52
is the single most shocking觸目驚心 thing
409
1060337
1739
過去數月來所聽過最驚人的事情
17:54
that they have heard聽說 in the last few少數 months個月.
410
1062076
2360
17:56
It's about a program程序 called "BullrunBullrun."
411
1064436
2625
是有關牛奔程式(Bullrun)的
17:59
Can you explain說明 what that is?
412
1067061
3776
你能解釋一下那是什麼嗎?
18:03
ESES: So BullrunBullrun, and this is again
413
1070837
1708
愛德華:這命名同樣讓我們
18:04
where we've我們已經 got to thank the NSANSA for their candor直率,
414
1072545
7097
不得不感謝美國國安局的坦率
18:11
this is a program程序 named命名 after a Civil國內 War戰爭 battle戰鬥.
415
1079642
4590
這程式是以美國內戰的
戰役名稱命名的
18:16
The British英國的 counterpart副本 is called EdgehillEdgehill,
416
1084232
1613
在英國類似的軟體叫刃峰(Edgehill)
18:18
which哪一個 is a U.K. civil國內 war戰爭 battle戰鬥.
417
1085845
1475
是以英國內戰戰役命名
18:19
And the reason原因 that I believe they're named命名 this way
418
1087320
2207
而我認為之所以如此命名
18:21
is because they target目標 our own擁有 infrastructure基礎設施.
419
1089527
3489
是因為這些程式都鎖定
國內的基礎設施
18:25
They're programs程式 through通過 which哪一個 the NSANSA
420
1093016
2691
美國國安局用這類軟體
18:27
intentionally故意地 misleads誤導 corporate企業 partners夥伴.
421
1095707
4215
蓄意誤導企業伙伴
18:32
They tell corporate企業 partners夥伴 that these
422
1099922
1882
他們向企業聲稱
18:34
are safe安全 standards標準.
423
1101804
1675
這些都是安全規範
18:35
They say hey, we need to work with you
424
1103479
2019
國安局說:「為了強化貴公司的系統安全,
18:37
to secure安全 your systems系統,
425
1105498
3653
我們得合作。」
18:41
but in reality現實, they're giving bad advice忠告
426
1109151
3193
不過實際上這建議很惡質
這些公司被誤導後
18:44
to these companies公司 that makes品牌 them
427
1112344
1266
18:45
degrade降級 the security安全 of their services服務.
428
1113610
2295
降低自身產品的安全層級
18:48
They're building建造 in backdoors後門 that not only
429
1115905
2329
他們還趁機嵌入後門程式
不僅讓美國國安局有機可趁
18:50
the NSANSA can exploit利用,
430
1118234
2358
任何有時間和資金
18:52
but anyone任何人 else其他 who has time and money
431
1120592
2521
18:55
to research研究 and find it
432
1123113
2120
投入研究和搜尋的人
18:57
can then use to let themselves他們自己 in
433
1125233
2134
都可藉此侵入
18:59
to the world's世界 communications通訊.
434
1127367
1870
全球通訊
19:01
And this is really dangerous危險,
435
1129237
1770
此事非同小可
19:03
because if we lose失去 a single standard標準,
436
1131007
4184
因為我們若没有共同基準
而且因為牛奔程式
19:07
if we lose失去 the trust相信 of something like SSLSSL,
437
1135191
3059
衝著傳輸安全層(SSL)而來
19:10
which哪一個 was specifically特別 targeted針對
438
1138250
1482
就不再信任類似的安全機制
19:11
by the BullrunBullrun program程序,
439
1139732
2123
那我們身處的世界將
不再那麼安全
19:14
we will live生活 a less safe安全 world世界 overall總體.
440
1141855
2668
19:16
We won't慣於 be able能夠 to access訪問 our banks銀行
441
1144523
2107
我們與銀行往來
19:18
and we won't慣於 be able能夠 to access訪問 commerce商業
442
1146630
5253
還有洽商時
將不免擔心通訊已被監控
19:24
without worrying令人擔憂 about people
monitoring監控 those communications通訊
443
1151883
2823
或另一端為其目的搞破壞
19:26
or subverting暗中破壞 them for their own擁有 ends結束.
444
1154706
2178
克里斯:另一個可能後果是不是
19:29
CACA: And do those same相同 decisions決定 also potentially可能
445
1156884
4069
19:33
open打開 America美國 up to cyberattacks網絡攻擊
446
1160953
2986
會讓美國暴露於
其他網路攻擊?
19:36
from other sources來源?
447
1163939
3916
19:40
ESES: Absolutely絕對.
448
1167855
1465
愛德華:正是!
19:41
One of the problems問題,
449
1169320
1732
其中一個問題
19:43
one of the dangerous危險 legacies遺產
450
1171052
3450
也是911恐怖攻擊之後
19:46
that we've我們已經 seen看到 in the post-9/11 era時代,
451
1174502
3492
遺留的一個後遺症
19:50
is that the NSANSA has traditionally傳統 worn磨損的 two hats帽子.
452
1177994
4237
美國國安局身兼二職
19:54
They've他們已經 been in charge收費 of offensive進攻 operations操作,
453
1182231
1926
一方面發動入侵網路
19:56
that is hacking黑客,
454
1184157
1121
的攻擊行動
19:57
but they've他們已經 also been in
charge收費 of defensive防禦性 operations操作,
455
1185278
2710
但也負責資訊國防
20:00
and traditionally傳統 they've他們已經 always prioritized優先
456
1187988
2363
而且照慣例
他們更重視資訊國防
20:02
defense防禦 over offense罪行
457
1190351
1387
而如此判斷的標準是
20:03
based基於 on the principle原理
458
1191738
1390
20:05
that American美國 secrets秘密 are simply只是 worth價值 more.
459
1193128
2816
美國的機密比較珍貴
20:08
If we hack a Chinese中文 business商業
460
1195944
2110
若入侵一家中國企業網路
20:10
and steal their secrets秘密,
461
1198054
1684
竊取機密
20:11
if we hack a government政府 office辦公室 in Berlin柏林
462
1199738
2083
或對德國政府單位施以同樣手段
20:14
and steal their secrets秘密,
463
1201821
2098
盗取其機密
20:16
that has less value to the American美國 people
464
1203919
3607
對美國人而言
還不如確保中國無法對美國下手
20:19
than making製造 sure that the Chinese中文
465
1207526
2100
來的有價值
20:21
can't get access訪問 to our secrets秘密.
466
1209626
2506
20:24
So by reducing減少 the security安全 of our communications通訊,
467
1212132
4131
因此通訊安全層級弱化
20:28
they're not only putting the world世界 at risk風險,
468
1216263
2028
不只增加全球風險
20:30
they're putting America美國 at risk風險 in a fundamental基本的 way,
469
1218291
2272
也讓美國陷入重大危機
20:32
because intellectual知識分子 property屬性 is the basis基礎,
470
1220563
2671
因為智慧財產
就是美國的經濟命脈
20:35
the foundation基礎 of our economy經濟,
471
1223234
1927
20:37
and if we put that at risk風險 through通過 weak security安全,
472
1225161
2258
若此命脈因安全太差而受遷累
我們將會吃上好幾年的苦頭
20:39
we're going to be paying付款 for it for years年份.
473
1227419
1629
20:41
CACA: But they've他們已經 made製作 a calculation計算
474
1229048
1547
克里斯:不過當局計算過
20:42
that it was worth價值 doing this
475
1230595
2191
為了防堵恐怖主義
20:44
as part部分 of America's美國 defense防禦 against反對 terrorism恐怖主義.
476
1232786
3539
值得放手一搏
20:48
Surely一定 that makes品牌 it a price價錢 worth價值 paying付款.
477
1236325
3612
當然這樣說風險也就不為過了
20:52
ESES: Well, when you look at the results結果
478
1239937
3887
愛德華:以這些方案
遏止恐怖主義的成效來看
20:56
of these programs程式 in stopping停止 terrorism恐怖主義,
479
1243824
2307
20:58
you will see that that's unfounded杞人憂天,
480
1246131
3750
就能明白這種說法毫無根據
21:02
and you don't have to take my word for it,
481
1249881
1919
各位也不用採信我的話
21:04
because we've我們已經 had the first open打開 court法庭,
482
1251800
3772
因為聯邦法庭對此
捨棄祕密審查
21:07
the first federal聯邦 court法庭 that's reviewed回顧 this,
483
1255572
2369
首度改採公開審理後
21:10
outside the secrecy保密 arrangement安排,
484
1257941
2796
認定這些方案係屬社會控制
21:12
called these programs程式 Orwellian奧威爾
485
1260737
1987
21:14
and likely容易 unconstitutional違憲.
486
1262724
2234
而且可能違憲
21:17
Congress國會, who has access訪問
487
1264958
2739
有權要求簡報說明的
21:19
to be briefed介紹 on these things,
488
1267697
1311
美國國會
21:21
and now has the desire慾望 to be,
489
1269008
2982
目前正有此意
且已提案改革制度
21:24
has produced生成 bills票據 to reform改革 it,
490
1271990
2407
21:26
and two independent獨立 White白色 House panels面板
491
1274397
2885
白宮的二個獨立小組
21:29
who reviewed回顧 all of the classified分類 evidence證據
492
1277282
2090
審查過所有機密證據後
21:31
said these programs程式 have never stopped停止
493
1279372
2633
表示相關專案
對遏止美國境內迫切的恐怖攻擊
21:34
a single terrorist恐怖分子 attack攻擊
494
1282005
1761
21:35
that was imminent即將來臨 in the United聯合的 States狀態.
495
1283766
3503
毫無效果
這樣我們真的在
防堵恐怖行動嗎?
21:39
So is it really terrorism恐怖主義 that we're stopping停止?
496
1287269
3186
這些方案又有何價值?
21:42
Do these programs程式 have any value at all?
497
1290455
2331
21:44
I say no, and all three branches分支機構
498
1292786
2244
我認為没有
三個美國政府部門
也都這麽認為
21:47
of the American美國 government政府 say no as well.
499
1295030
2432
克里斯:你認為除了
對抗恐怖主義外
21:49
CACA: I mean, do you think there's a deeper更深 motivation動機
500
1297462
1813
他們這麼做還隱含
其他動機嗎?
21:51
for them than the war戰爭 against反對 terrorism恐怖主義?
501
1299275
3285
愛德華:抱歉,我聽不到
再說一次
21:54
ESES: I'm sorry, I couldn't不能 hear you, say again?
502
1302560
1550
21:56
CACA: Sorry. Do you think there's a deeper更深 motivation動機
503
1304110
3000
克里斯:抱歉
我是說除了對抗恐怖主義
21:59
for them other than the war戰爭 against反對 terrorism恐怖主義?
504
1307110
3879
你認為他們這麼做
還有其他動機嗎?
22:03
ESES: Yeah. The bottom底部 line is that terrorism恐怖主義
505
1310989
2695
愛德華:有的,追根究柢
對情資界而言
22:05
has always been what we in the intelligence情報 world世界
506
1313684
2201
恐怖主義向來就是
22:08
would call a cover for action行動.
507
1315885
3273
掩飾行動的藉口
也是用來挑起情緒反應的方式
22:11
Terrorism恐怖主義 is something that provokes所引發
508
1319158
1925
22:13
an emotional情緒化 response響應 that allows允許 people
509
1321083
2230
因此特權和方案的授權
22:15
to rationalize理順 authorizing授權 powers權力 and programs程式
510
1323313
4357
本來大眾是不允許的
在如此情緒下也變得理所當然
22:19
that they wouldn't不會 give otherwise除此以外.
511
1327670
2444
22:22
The BullrunBullrun and Edgehill-typeEdgehill型 programs程式,
512
1330114
2486
美國國安局早在1990年代
22:24
the NSANSA asked for these authorities當局
513
1332600
1717
就要求對「牛奔」和「刃峰」
這類程式
22:26
back in the 1990s.
514
1334317
1937
予以授權
22:28
They asked the FBI聯邦調查局 to go to
Congress國會 and make the case案件.
515
1336254
2990
他們請聯邦調查局到國會遊說
22:31
The FBI聯邦調查局 went to Congress國會 and did make the case案件.
516
1339244
2174
而後者也照辦了
22:33
But Congress國會 and the American美國 people said no.
517
1341418
2565
可惜國會和人民不吃這套
22:36
They said, it's not worth價值 the risk風險 to our economy經濟.
518
1343983
2411
他們說:「不值得拿我們的經濟去冒險。」
22:38
They said it's worth價值 too much damage損傷
519
1346394
1919
還說為了證明值得
22:40
to our society社會 to justify辯解 the gains收益.
520
1348313
2687
對社會的衝擊太大了
22:43
But what we saw is, in the post-9/11 era時代,
521
1351000
4275
不過911事件後我們目睹的卻是
有關當局藉口恐怖主義與
國家機密
22:47
they used secrecy保密 and they
used the justification理由 of terrorism恐怖主義
522
1355275
3251
22:50
to start開始 these programs程式 in secret秘密
523
1358526
1934
未經國會批准
22:52
without asking Congress國會,
524
1360460
1812
也沒徵詢美國大眾
22:54
without asking the American美國 people,
525
1362272
2180
就暗中進行這些方案
22:56
and it's that kind of government政府 behind背後 closed關閉 doors
526
1364452
2738
我們要防範的
就是這種密門政治的政府
22:59
that we need to guard守衛 ourselves我們自己 against反對,
527
1367190
2559
23:01
because it makes品牌 us less safe安全,
528
1369749
1250
因為這樣的政府讓我們
更不安全
23:03
and it offers報價 no value.
529
1370999
1892
也無價值可言
23:05
CACA: Okay, come with me here for a sec,
530
1372891
1866
克里斯:好,請跟我來一下
23:06
because I've got a more personal個人 question for you.
531
1374757
2182
我有些私人問題請教
23:09
Speaking請講 of terror恐怖,
532
1376939
2924
說到恐怖活動
23:12
most people would find the
situation情況 you're in right now
533
1379863
3957
大多數人會覺得
你目前在俄國的處境十分駭人
23:16
in Russia俄國 pretty漂亮 terrifying可怕的.
534
1383820
3296
23:19
You obviously明顯 heard聽說 what happened發生,
535
1387116
3587
有關布拉德利.曼寧(Bradley Manning)
遭受的待遇
你顯然已有所聞
23:22
what the treatment治療 that Bradley布拉德利 Manning曼寧 got,
536
1390703
2193
他已改名為切爾西.曼寧
(Chelsea Manning)
23:25
Chelsea切爾西 Manning曼寧 as now is,
537
1392896
2281
23:27
and there was a story故事 in Buzzfeed來自Buzzfeed saying that
538
1395177
2487
Buzzfeed網站刊載一則新聞
23:29
there are people in the intelligence情報 community社區
539
1397664
1658
提到情報界
23:31
who want you dead.
540
1399322
2279
有些人想要你的命
23:33
How are you coping應對 with this?
541
1401601
1940
你如何應付這麻煩?
23:35
How are you coping應對 with the fear恐懼?
542
1403541
1949
又該如何處理自身的恐懼?
23:37
ESES: It's no mystery神秘
543
1405490
3004
愛德華:眾所皆知
有好多政府巴不得我死
23:40
that there are governments政府 out
there that want to see me dead.
544
1408494
5648
23:46
I've made製作 clear明確 again and again and again
545
1414142
3410
而我一再表明的是
23:49
that I go to sleep睡覺 every一切 morning早上
546
1417552
3366
每天早上我就寢時
23:53
thinking思維 about what I can
do for the American美國 people.
547
1420918
4560
都在想能為祖國同胞做什麽
23:57
I don't want to harm危害 my government政府.
548
1425478
3032
我不想傷害祖國政府
24:00
I want to help my government政府,
549
1428510
3263
而且想幫忙
24:03
but the fact事實 that they are willing願意 to
550
1431773
3808
但事實是
他們寧願無視正當程序
24:07
completely全然 ignore忽視 due應有 process處理,
551
1435581
2320
24:10
they're willing願意 to declare宣布 guilt有罪
552
1437901
2708
而且未經番判
24:12
without ever seeing眼看 a trial審訊,
553
1440609
3286
便將人定罪
24:16
these are things that we need to work against反對
554
1443895
2416
有些事,社會群體該挺身抗拒
24:18
as a society社會, and say hey, this is not appropriate適當.
555
1446311
3578
並且表態:「這麼做不對!」
24:22
We shouldn't不能 be threatening危險的 dissidents持不同政見者.
556
1449889
1827
「我們不該威脅異議人士。」
24:23
We shouldn't不能 be criminalizing刑事犯罪 journalism新聞學.
557
1451716
3014
「新聞業不該被冠上罪名。」
24:26
And whatever隨你 part部分 I can do to see that end結束,
558
1454730
3319
即使有風險,若能停止這一切
任何事我都樂意做
24:30
I'm happy快樂 to do despite儘管 the risks風險.
559
1458049
3153
克里斯:我真的很想知道
24:33
CACA: So I'd actually其實 like to get some feedback反饋
560
1461202
1524
現場觀眾的意見
24:34
from the audience聽眾 here,
561
1462726
1219
24:36
because I know there's widely廣泛 differing不同 reactions反應
562
1463945
2104
因為我知道各界對愛德華.史諾登
24:38
to Edward愛德華 Snowden斯諾登.
563
1466049
1941
看法頗多不同
24:40
Suppose假設 you had the following以下 two choices選擇, right?
564
1467990
2288
假設各位可有以下兩種選擇
24:42
You could view視圖 what he did
565
1470278
2806
把愛德華所做的事
24:45
as fundamentally從根本上 a reckless魯莽 act法案
566
1473084
1894
當成根本就是給美國帶來危機
24:47
that has endangered瀕危 America美國
567
1474978
3219
的魯莽行為
或者,也可說這是
24:50
or you could view視圖 it as fundamentally從根本上 a heroic英勇 act法案
568
1478197
3563
能為美國及世界的長遠利益
24:53
that will work towards America美國 and the world's世界
569
1481760
3475
有所貢獻的偉大英雄事蹟
24:57
long-term長期 good?
570
1485235
1387
24:58
Those are the two choices選擇 I'll give you.
571
1486622
3318
這是我給各位的兩個選項
我很好奇
25:02
I'm curious好奇 to see who's誰是 willing願意 to vote投票 with
572
1489940
2155
誰會選第一個
25:04
the first of those,
573
1492095
1417
25:05
that this was a reckless魯莽 act法案?
574
1493512
3409
認為是魯莽行為的
25:09
There are some hands going up.
575
1496921
1655
有人舉手
25:10
Some hands going up.
576
1498576
1384
真有幾票呢
25:12
It's hard to put your hand up
577
1499960
1276
當事人在場
25:13
when the man is standing常設 right here,
578
1501236
2111
要舉手可真難啊
25:15
but I see them.
579
1503347
1565
但的確有人這麼認為
25:17
ESES: I can see you. (Laughter笑聲)
580
1504912
2531
愛德華:我看得到你們這些人喔!
(帶笑)
25:19
CACA: And who goes with the second第二 choice選擇,
581
1507443
2261
克里斯:有人選第二種看法嗎?
25:21
the fundamentally從根本上 heroic英勇 act法案?
582
1509704
1883
認為這行為令人欽佩的
25:23
(Applause掌聲) (Cheers乾杯)
583
1511587
2647
(掌聲中夾雜著加油打氣)
25:26
And I think it's true真正 to say that
there are a lot of people
584
1514234
2574
真的有很多人没表態
25:29
who didn't show顯示 a hand and I think
585
1516808
2225
我想還在考慮吧!
25:31
are still thinking思維 this through通過,
586
1519033
1710
25:32
because it seems似乎 to me that the debate辯論 around you
587
1520743
3458
在我看來,有關你的辯論
並非以傳統的政治分野區分的
25:36
doesn't split分裂 along沿 traditional傳統 political政治 lines.
588
1524201
3109
25:39
It's not left or right, it's not really about
589
1527310
2254
非關左派右派,支持政府者
25:41
pro-government親政府, libertarian自由主義者, or not just that.
590
1529564
4122
自由主義者或其他種種
25:45
Part部分 of it is almost幾乎 a generational issue問題.
591
1533686
2713
其中有些幾乎可說是
世代議題
25:48
You're part部分 of a generation that grew成長 up
592
1536399
1808
身為自小與網路為伍的一代
25:50
with the Internet互聯網, and it seems似乎 as if
593
1538207
2926
當你見到有些事
25:53
you become成為 offended生氣 at almost幾乎 a visceral內臟 level水平
594
1541133
3208
未來將對網路有所傷害
你似乎
25:56
when you see something doneDONE
595
1544341
1296
變得義憤填膺
25:57
that you think will harm危害 the Internet互聯網.
596
1545637
2062
25:59
Is there some truth真相 to that?
597
1547699
3573
這樣說正確嗎?
愛德華:我覺得這樣說很對
26:03
ESES: It is. I think it's very true真正.
598
1551272
5048
26:08
This is not a left or right issue問題.
599
1556320
3098
這議題無關左派右派
而是我們的基本自由
這裡所說的「我們」
26:11
Our basic基本 freedoms自由, and when I say our,
600
1559418
2577
26:14
I don't just mean Americans美國人,
601
1561995
1547
不只是是美國人
26:15
I mean people around the world世界,
602
1563542
2013
而是全世界的人
26:17
it's not a partisan黨派 issue問題.
603
1565555
2346
這也不是黨派議題
26:20
These are things that all people believe,
604
1567901
2039
有些事是所有人都相信
26:22
and it's up to all of us to protect保護 them,
605
1569940
2525
而且我們都有責任保護的
26:24
and to people who have seen看到 and enjoyed享受
606
1572465
2832
對目睹並享受過
26:27
a free自由 and open打開 Internet互聯網,
607
1575297
1661
自由開放網路的人來說
26:29
it's up to us to preserve保留 that liberty自由
608
1576958
3226
我們有責任為下一代
26:32
for the next下一個 generation to enjoy請享用,
609
1580184
1905
保留享有自由的機會
26:34
and if we don't change更改 things,
610
1582089
1865
如果我們不做些改變
26:36
if we don't stand up to make the changes變化
611
1583954
3133
如果我們不挺身促成改變
26:39
we need to do to keep the Internet互聯網 safe安全,
612
1587087
3207
為自己和所有人
26:42
not just for us but for everyone大家,
613
1590294
2768
維護網路安全
26:45
we're going to lose失去 that,
614
1593062
1465
我們將失去這些
26:46
and that would be a tremendous巨大 loss失利,
615
1594527
1253
那對我們和全世界而言
26:47
not just for us, but for the world世界.
616
1595780
2347
都將是嚴重損失
26:50
CACA: Well, I have heard聽說 similar類似 language語言 recently最近
617
1598127
2073
克里斯:這話我最近也聽過
26:52
from the founder創辦人 of the world世界 wide web捲筒紙,
618
1600200
1848
網際網路的創建者說過
26:54
who I actually其實 think is with us, Sir先生 Tim蒂姆 Berners-Lee伯納斯 - 李.
619
1602048
4517
我想蒂姆.柏納斯李爵士
(Sir Tim Berners-Lee)在場
26:58
Tim蒂姆, actually其實, would you like to come up and say,
620
1606565
2704
蒂姆,您要上來說幾句嗎?
27:01
do we have a microphone麥克風 for Tim蒂姆?
621
1609269
1871
能給他麥克風嗎?
27:03
(Applause掌聲)
622
1611140
2367
(掌聲)
27:05
Tim蒂姆, good to see you. Come up there.
623
1613507
7075
很高興看到你,蒂姆!過來一點
順便問一下
你是站在那一邊的?
27:12
Which哪一個 camp are you in, by the way,
624
1620582
2437
27:15
traitor叛徒, hero英雄? I have a theory理論 on this, but --
625
1623019
3500
叛國賊或英雄?
我可以說明一下,不過. . .
蒂姆.柏納斯李:
我曾更詳細地回答過這問題
27:18
Tim蒂姆 Berners-Lee伯納斯 - 李: I've given特定 much longer
626
1626519
2694
27:21
answers答案 to that question, but hero英雄,
627
1629213
3055
不過若只有兩個選擇
27:24
if I have to make the choice選擇 between之間 the two.
628
1632268
3402
我說他是英雄
27:27
CACA: And Ed埃德, I think you've read
629
1635670
3333
克里斯:愛德華
我想你應該讀過有關
27:31
the proposal提案 that Sir先生 Tim蒂姆 has talked about
630
1639003
2084
蒂姆爵士提出
27:33
about a new Magna麥格納 Carta憲章 to take back the Internet互聯網.
631
1641087
2968
制定新版大憲章(Magna Carta)
收復網路的提議
27:36
Is that something that makes品牌 sense?
632
1644055
2102
你認為有道理嗎?
27:38
ESES: Absolutely絕對. I mean, my generation, I grew成長 up
633
1646157
3641
愛德華:當然!
我是說我們這一代-
我從小到大不只想過網路
27:41
not just thinking思維 about the Internet互聯網,
634
1649798
2059
27:44
but I grew成長 up in the Internet互聯網,
635
1651857
2364
也在網路世界成長
27:46
and although雖然 I never expected預期 to have the chance機會
636
1654221
4660
儘管我從未預料會有機會
27:51
to defend保衛 it in such這樣 a direct直接 and practical實際的 manner方式
637
1658881
5547
以這樣直接實際的方式
捍衛網路
27:56
and to embody體現 it in this unusual異常,
638
1664428
3796
並以這種特殊
而且近乎化身的方式
28:00
almost幾乎 avatar頭像 manner方式,
639
1668224
2129
體現網路
28:02
I think there's something poetic詩意 about the fact事實 that
640
1670353
2706
我認為身為網路世代的一員
拜其所屬世代的政治意見
28:05
one of the sons兒子 of the Internet互聯網
641
1673059
1982
28:07
has actually其實 become成為 close to the Internet互聯網
642
1675041
3052
得以與網路臨近
28:10
as a result結果 of their political政治 expression表達.
643
1678093
2486
這還頗深遠的
28:12
And I believe that a Magna麥格納 Carta憲章 for the Internet互聯網
644
1680579
3711
我相信為網路制定的大憲章
28:16
is exactly究竟 what we need.
645
1684290
1962
正是我們所需要的
28:18
We need to encode編碼 our values
646
1686252
3508
我們不僅需要將價值觀
訴諸文字,也要將之融入網路架構
28:21
not just in writing寫作 but in the structure結構體 of the Internet互聯網,
647
1689760
3347
28:25
and it's something that I hope希望,
648
1693107
2240
這件事我希望
28:27
I invite邀請 everyone大家 in the audience聽眾,
649
1695347
2523
我邀請在座的各位觀眾加入
28:30
not just here in Vancouver溫哥華 but around the world世界,
650
1697870
3250
不只是溫哥華這裡的
還有全球的觀眾
28:33
to join加入 and participate參加 in.
651
1701120
2356
共襄盛舉
28:35
CACA: Do you have a question for Ed埃德?
652
1703476
2314
克里斯:蒂姆你有甚麼要問愛德華嗎?
28:37
TBLTBL: Well, two questions問題,
653
1705790
2030
蒂姆.柏納斯李:我有兩個問題請教
28:40
a general一般 question
654
1707820
1124
一個普通問題-
28:41
CACA: Ed埃德, can you still hear us?
655
1708944
1795
克里斯:愛德華你還聽得見
我們說話嗎?
28:42
ESES: Yes, I can hear you.
CACA: Oh, he's back.
656
1710739
3516
愛德華:可以!
克里斯:好,又連上了
蒂姆.柏納斯李:
你電話線上的竊聽器
28:46
TBLTBL: The wiretap竊聽 on your line
657
1714255
1595
暫時受到干擾
28:48
got a little interfered干擾 with for a moment時刻.
658
1715850
1906
28:49
(Laughter笑聲)
659
1717756
1653
(笑聲)
28:51
ESES: It's a little bit of an NSANSA problem問題.
660
1719409
2202
愛德華:
是有一點國安局搞出來的麻煩!
28:53
TBLTBL: So, from the 25 years年份,
661
1721611
3807
蒂姆.柏納斯李:
暫且撇開網路問世的這25年發展
28:57
stepping步進 back and thinking思維,
662
1725418
2937
另作思考
29:00
what would you think would be
663
1728355
1746
再考量我們對於
29:02
the best最好 that we could achieve實現
664
1730101
2607
理想網路環境的所以討論內容
29:04
from all the discussions討論 that we have
665
1732708
1860
你認為
29:06
about the web捲筒紙 we want?
666
1734568
2893
我們應可達成的最佳境界是. . .
29:09
ESES: When we think about
667
1737461
3372
愛德華:每當思考
29:13
in terms條款 of how far we can go,
668
1740833
3113
我們能做多少
我認為這取決於
29:16
I think that's a question that's really only limited有限
669
1743946
2153
我們願意投入多少
29:18
by what we're willing願意 to put into it.
670
1746099
2537
29:20
I think the Internet互聯網 that we've我們已經 enjoyed享受 in the past過去
671
1748636
2957
我認為過去我們享有的網路
不只正是國家整體
29:23
has been exactly究竟 what we as not just a nation國家
672
1751593
5558
更是地球公民共同所需
29:29
but as a people around the world世界 need,
673
1757151
3339
29:32
and by cooperating合作, by engaging not just
674
1760490
4226
透過合作,並且讓社會中
技術專家以外的群體也加入
29:36
the technical技術 parts部分 of society社會,
675
1764716
1404
29:38
but as you said, the users用戶,
676
1766120
2842
不過就像你提過的
若全球的網路使用者
29:41
the people around the world世界 who contribute有助於
677
1768962
2064
無論是透過全球網路和
社群媒體
29:43
through通過 the Internet互聯網, through通過 social社會 media媒體,
678
1771026
2442
29:45
who just check the weather天氣,
679
1773468
1727
或只是查詢氣象的用戶也好
29:47
who rely依靠 on it every一切 day as a part部分 of their life,
680
1775195
2553
甚至日常生活極度
依賴網路的人
29:49
to champion冠軍 that.
681
1777748
2940
都付出貢獻促成
29:52
We'll get not just the Internet互聯網 we've我們已經 had,
682
1780688
2537
我們得到的網路絕非只有這樣
29:55
but a better Internet互聯網, a better now,
683
1783225
2949
而是更好的網路環境和現勢
29:58
something that we can use to build建立 a future未來
684
1786174
4043
有了這些我們便可創造一個
30:02
that'll那會 be better not just than what we hoped希望 for
685
1790217
2968
不僅超乎預期
30:05
but anything that we could have imagined想像.
686
1793185
2385
而且符合各種想像的未來
30:07
CACA: It's 30 years年份 ago that TEDTED was founded成立, 1984.
687
1795570
5462
克里斯:30年前,也就是1984
TED論壇創立
30:13
A lot of the conversation會話 since以來 then has been
688
1801032
2005
從那時起,許多討論便循著
30:15
along沿 the lines that
689
1803037
2054
連喬治.歐威爾(George Orwell)
30:17
actually其實 George喬治 Orwell奧威爾 got it wrong錯誤.
690
1805091
1903
都料錯的方向發展
30:19
It's not Big Brother哥哥 watching觀看 us.
691
1806994
1719
不是我們被政府監控
30:20
We, through通過 the power功率 of the web捲筒紙,
692
1808713
1614
而是有了網路影響力和公開性
30:22
and transparency透明度, are now watching觀看 Big Brother哥哥.
693
1810327
2364
我們反而得以監督政府
30:24
Your revelations啟示 kind of drove開車 a stake賭注
694
1812691
2261
不過這種較樂觀的看法
或多或少
30:27
through通過 the heart of that rather optimistic樂觀 view視圖,
695
1814952
3747
因為你的揭發而
挨了一記悶棍
不過你依然相信
30:30
but you still believe there's a way of doing something
696
1818699
3420
有辦法解決
30:34
about that.
697
1822119
1869
而且蒂姆也能辦到
30:36
And you do too.
698
1823988
1740
愛德華:沒錯,所以說政府權力大增
30:37
ESES: Right, so there is an argument論據 to be made製作
699
1825728
6168
是有根據的
30:44
that the powers權力 of Big Brother哥哥
have increased增加 enormously巨大.
700
1831896
3597
30:47
There was a recent最近 legal法律 article文章 at Yale耶魯
701
1835493
4329
耶魯大學最近發表一篇
法律專文
30:52
that established既定 something called
the Bankston-Soltani班克斯頓-Soltani Principle原理,
702
1839822
3731
創立了一套所謂的
Bankston-Soltani法則
30:55
which哪一個 is that our expectation期望 of privacy隱私 is violated違反
703
1843553
5229
也就是當政府監控的能力
其成本降低一個級數
31:00
when the capabilities功能 of government政府 surveillance監控
704
1848782
1869
我們對隱私的期盼便會破滅
31:02
have become成為 cheaper便宜 by an order訂購 of magnitude大小,
705
1850651
3195
31:06
and each time that occurs發生, we need to revisit重溫
706
1853846
2722
每當這種事發生,我們便要
重新思考並權衡隱私權
31:08
and rebalance重新平衡 our privacy隱私 rights權利.
707
1856568
3053
31:11
Now, that hasn't有沒有 happened發生 since以來
708
1859621
1990
儘管政府監控的能力
31:13
the government's政府的 surveillance監控 powers權力
709
1861611
2098
早已三級跳
31:15
have increased增加 by several一些 orders命令 of magnitude大小,
710
1863709
2780
相關的省察卻從來沒發生
31:18
and that's why we're in the
problem問題 that we're in today今天,
711
1866489
2974
才導致我們現在得
面對這樣的問題
31:21
but there is still hope希望,
712
1869463
3812
不過事情仍有轉機
31:25
because the power功率 of individuals個人
713
1873275
2136
因為科技
31:27
have also been increased增加 by technology技術.
714
1875411
2607
個人影響力也增加了
31:30
I am living活的 proof證明
715
1878018
2001
我就是活生生的例子
31:32
that an individual個人 can go head to head
716
1880019
2162
即使單槍匹馬
31:34
against反對 the most powerful強大 adversaries對手
717
1882181
2318
也可和超強勁敵
31:36
and the most powerful強大 intelligence情報 agencies機構
718
1884499
2321
與全球情報單位正面對戰
31:39
around the world世界 and win贏得,
719
1886820
3760
最後還獲勝
我認為那就是
31:42
and I think that's something
720
1890580
1660
31:44
that we need to take hope希望 from,
721
1892240
2423
可給我們希望的利證
31:46
and we need to build建立 on
722
1894663
1177
我們需要從這點開始
31:48
to make it accessible無障礙 not just to technical技術 experts專家
723
1895840
2437
不只讓技術專家可利用這點
31:50
but to ordinary普通 citizens公民 around the world世界.
724
1898277
2517
甚至全世界的普通人也有機會
31:52
Journalism新聞學 is not a crime犯罪,
725
1900794
1667
新聞不是罪惡
31:54
communication通訊 is not a crime犯罪,
726
1902461
1790
通訊也不是
31:56
and we should not be monitored監控
in our everyday每天 activities活動.
727
1904251
2944
而且我們的日常活動
不該受到監視
31:59
CACA: I'm not quite相當 sure how
you shake the hand of a botBOT,
728
1907195
2729
克里斯:我不太確定該如何
與機器人握手
32:02
but I imagine想像 it's, this is the hand right here.
TBLTBL: That'll那會 come very soon不久.
729
1909924
5890
不過假設這有一隻手。
蒂姆.柏納斯:很快就會發展出來的。
32:08
ESES: Nice尼斯 to meet遇到 you,
730
1915814
1123
愛德華:幸會了!
32:09
and I hope希望 my beam光束 looks容貌 as nice不錯
731
1916937
2047
但願我的微笑
32:11
as my view視圖 of you guys does.
732
1918984
2344
像各位的一樣親切
32:13
CACA: Thank you, Tim蒂姆.
733
1921328
2720
克里斯:謝謝你,蒂姆
(掌聲)
32:16
(Applause掌聲)
734
1924048
5732
32:21
I mean, The New York紐約 Times
recently最近 called for an amnesty大赦 for you.
735
1929780
4052
好,紐約時報最近呼籲
該給你特赦
32:26
Would you welcome歡迎 the chance機會
to come back to America美國?
736
1933832
4226
你會把握機會回到美國嗎?
32:30
ESES: Absolutely絕對. There's really no question,
737
1938058
3885
愛德華:當然!
毫無疑問地
32:34
the principles原則 that have been the foundation基礎
738
1941943
2582
這個提案
32:36
of this project項目
739
1944525
2393
32:39
have been the public上市 interest利益
740
1946918
4080
是本著公共利益所提出的
32:43
and the principles原則 that underlyunderly
741
1950998
2943
而美國和全世界的新聞界
能有如今規模
32:46
the journalistic新聞 establishment編制 in the United聯合的 States狀態
742
1953941
3276
也是以這個的原則為基礎
32:49
and around the world世界,
743
1957217
2446
32:51
and I think if the press is now saying,
744
1959663
4845
我認為如果新聞業現在表態
32:56
we support支持 this,
745
1964508
2082
他們對此表示支持
32:58
this is something that needed需要 to happen發生,
746
1966590
2088
且認為特赦是必要的
33:00
that's a powerful強大 argument論據,
but it's not the final最後 argument論據,
747
1968678
2644
那的確很有說服力,不過尚未定論
33:03
and I think that's something
that public上市 should decide決定.
748
1971322
2713
而我認為這必須由大眾決定
33:06
But at the same相同 time,
749
1974035
1842
不過與此同時
33:08
the government政府 has hinted暗示 that they want
750
1975877
1546
美國政府曾暗示
33:09
some kind of deal合同,
751
1977423
1844
他們希望達成某種協議
33:11
that they want me to compromise妥協
752
1979267
2114
他們要我供出
33:13
the journalists記者 with which哪一個 I've been working加工,
753
1981381
2175
目前為止我合作過的那些記者
33:15
to come back,
754
1983556
1433
作為我回國的交換條件
33:17
and I want to make it very clear明確
755
1984989
2553
我必須講明的是
33:19
that I did not do this to be safe安全.
756
1987542
2726
我這一路走來不是為了自保
33:22
I did this to do what was right,
757
1990268
2268
而是為所當為
而且我會持續這樣做
33:24
and I'm not going to stop my work
758
1992536
2227
這是為了公共利益
33:26
in the public上市 interest利益
759
1994763
1374
33:28
just to benefit效益 myself.
760
1996137
2789
而不是為我自己的好處打算
33:31
(Applause掌聲)
761
1998926
5778
(掌聲)
33:36
CACA: In the meantime與此同時,
762
2004704
1919
克里斯:現在看來
33:38
courtesy禮貌 of the Internet互聯網 and this technology技術,
763
2006623
3768
拜網路及機器人科技所賜
33:42
you're here, back in North America美國,
764
2010391
1650
你回到北美和我們在一起
33:44
not quite相當 the U.S., Canada加拿大, in this form形成.
765
2012041
4016
不過是加拿大而不是美國
而且是透過遙控機器人
33:48
I'm curious好奇, how does that feel?
766
2016057
4894
我想知道你有什麼感想?
33:53
ESES: Canada加拿大 is different不同 than what I expected預期.
767
2020951
2138
愛德華:出乎意料的
加拿大比我想像的溫暖多了!
33:55
It's a lot warmer回暖.
768
2023089
2125
33:57
(Laughter笑聲)
769
2025214
5707
(笑聲)
34:03
CACA: At TEDTED, the mission任務 is "ideas思路 worth價值 spreading傳播."
770
2030921
3256
克里斯:TED論壇的宗旨是
「值得傳佈的思想」
34:06
If you could encapsulate封裝 it in a single idea理念,
771
2034177
2198
如果你能用一個概念
簡述這個宗旨
34:08
what is your idea理念 worth價值 spreading傳播
772
2036375
2215
此時此刻
34:10
right now at this moment時刻?
773
2038590
4075
您認為該傳佈何種思想?
34:14
ESES: I would say the last year has been a reminder提醒
774
2042665
3650
愛德華:我認為2013年
讓我們體認到
34:18
that democracy民主 may可能 die behind背後 closed關閉 doors,
775
2046315
3603
密室政治足以扼殺民主
34:22
but we as individuals個人 are born天生
776
2049918
1904
但也是這種隱密性
34:24
behind背後 those same相同 closed關閉 doors,
777
2051822
2649
讓個人得以誕生
34:26
and we don't have to give up
778
2054471
2365
我們不需要放棄個人隱私
34:29
our privacy隱私 to have good government政府.
779
2056836
3233
來建立好政府
34:32
We don't have to give up our liberty自由
780
2060069
2090
我們也不需要放棄自由
34:34
to have security安全.
781
2062159
1779
來換取安全
34:36
And I think by working加工 together一起
782
2063938
2788
我認為只要大家共同努力
34:38
we can have both open打開 government政府
783
2066726
2325
開放的政府和私生活
是可以兼得的
34:41
and private私人的 lives生活,
784
2069051
1937
34:43
and I look forward前鋒 to working加工 with everyone大家
785
2070988
1773
我希望能與全世界的人合作
34:44
around the world世界 to see that happen發生.
786
2072761
2539
來實現這件事
34:47
Thank you very much.
787
2075300
1338
非常謝謝大家!
34:48
CACA: Ed埃德, thank you.
788
2076638
2240
克里斯:謝謝你!愛德華
34:51
(Applause掌聲)
789
2078878
8829
(掌聲)
Translated by Samson Zhong
Reviewed by Jovian Chu

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Edward Snowden - Whistleblower
In 2013 Edward Snowden leaked thousands of classified American National Security Agency documents, sparking a global conversation about citizens' rights to privacy on the Internet.

Why you should listen

Edward Snowden was just about to turn 28 when his face was suddenly splashed across every major newspaper in the US. In the summer of 2013 The Guardian published a series of leaked documents about the American National Security Agency (NSA), starting with an article about a secret court order demanding American phone records from Verizon, followed by an article on the NSA's top-secret Prism program, said to be accessing user data from Google, Apple and Facebook.

It wasn't long before Snowden came forward as the source, revealing that he had carefully planned the leak, copying documents when he was working as a contractor for the NSA. "I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions," he said at the time, but "I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant." Snowden's actions have led to a global debate on the relationship between national security and online privacy. His leaks continue to have a lasting impact on the American public's view of the government, and has encouraged media scrutiny on the NSA.

Snowden had coordinated the leak with journalist Glenn Greenwald and filmmaker Laura Poitras from Hong Kong; after he revealed his identity, he fled and ended up in Moscow. Under charges of espionage by the American government, Snowden remains in Russia in temporary asylum.

More profile about the speaker
Edward Snowden | Speaker | TED.com